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#667041 - 08/04/21 05:43 PM [Off-Topic] A music theory question
Registered: 07/10/15
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Planobilly Offline
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Play these chords any way you like. G minor, F major, E flat major, D major.
Or put them in BIAB.

Why does the D major sound pleasing when it is out of key?

Billy
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#667047 - 08/04/21 06:03 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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MarioD Offline
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Billy, the Eb (usually it would be a 7th, i.e. Eb7) is a tritone substitution for a V7, i.e. in the case the Eb is a substitution for an A7.

The easiest way to think of tritone substitution is to replace the 7th chord to a chord, usually another 7th, 1/2 step higher than the chord you are going to next. In other words instead of G7 to C you could use C#7 to C or in your case instead of A7 to D it is Eb to D.

I wouldn't say that the D is out of key either. Based on just those 4 chords I would say that the song is in the key of D.
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#667055 - 08/04/21 06:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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Hey...I meant for this to be in G minor. The 5 chord is a minor to keep it in key. I also play B flat major to F major with a F, F#, G bass walk back to the G minor with this progression. Sorry I should have stated the key.

I think this sort of half step down is actually pretty common. Perhaps that is the only reason it sounds normal.

Billy
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#667059 - 08/04/21 07:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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I think those four chords establish the key as Gminor. The D chord is most of a D7 chord, which would be expected here.
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#667060 - 08/04/21 08:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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Hi Matt,

I understand the 7 part of D7 because the 7th note of the scale is C in G natural minor scale. What I don't understand is why the F# sounds ok in the D major chord because it is not in the scale

The 5 chord in a G minor natural is D minor or D minor 7. Well unless I am complete confused.

Lost in Miami...lol

Billy

EDIT: The Chords in natural minor keys follow the pattern, minor diminished major minor minor major major. Correct?


Edited by Planobilly (08/04/21 08:18 PM)
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#667061 - 08/04/21 08:21 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Whilst such notation seems 'out of place', there are no absolute rules that state which notes can only be played.

Study some of Bacharach's, Jim Webb's, Billy Joel's or Jobim's classic compositions. Those composers introduce subtleties that make their music sound great by not adhering to things like "never use an F# in a G minor song" wink. It introduces an element of surprise that is pleasantly interesting, and I think that's the key point you have witnessed.
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#667062 - 08/04/21 08:42 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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So, thanks Mr. Down Under...that is logical, at least to me. When I am analyzing something I do it on the piano because it is so much less trouble than on guitar. I wrote this thing on guitar, I think I may have got this idea from Mark Knopfler. I just don't remember.

I am trying to devise a melody line and a fifth harmony. That is easer for me to peck out on the piano.

This whole pandemic thing is giving me the isolation blues. No bass player to go to her house and my keyboard player is back at home in Buenos Aires Argentina. And I don't have a airplane of my own any longer and I am certainly not " flying in from London from over the poles on a big airliner"...lol

It is always good to speak to someone living in tomorrow. We only got a 4 hour time difference here but the guys from California think cocaine will make up for the 4 hour time difference. Running for cover...lol

Billy


Edited by Planobilly (08/04/21 08:47 PM)
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#667076 - 08/04/21 11:15 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Related question...why does Bb sound so good in the key of C? (Or maybe it is the same question already answered and I just don't know my keys or transpositions very well!)

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#667083 - 08/05/21 01:59 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Bob Calver Offline
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or a C chord in the key of D? D-C-G is a common sequence on guitar in the key of D although I know the chords are the ones for the key of G...........

maybe key signatures are a bit more fluid than guitarists think.......

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#667093 - 08/05/21 04:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Related question...why does Bb sound so good in the key of C? (Or maybe it is the same question already answered and I just don't know my keys or transpositions very well!)


If you were to sit at a piano and play C-E-G with your left hand and then Bb-D-F with your right you would be playing a Bb over a C major, or a C11. Very common and tasty chords. That chord on a Rhodes with some chorus.. c'est magnifique. The relationship of those 2 will be clearer on a keyboard than a guitar, but if you just barre the 3rd fret of a guitar and play all 6 strings you get the same effect. Great passing chords, those 11ths.


Edited by eddie1261 (08/05/21 04:32 AM)
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#667105 - 08/05/21 05:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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Perhaps the real question is by what process can a decision be made as to what "out of key chords" are most likely to sound good in any key.

I tend to design song that stay in key. They sound more like songs from the 1950's and 1960's. It is a more simplistic way to create a song. Problem is I want to expand my ability to develop chord progressions.

This chord progression in G minor in this post came about from me just messing around on guitar. There was no critical "classical training" understanding involved. The progression stays in key except for the D major chord which has one note in the triad, F sharp which does not occur in the G natural minor scale.

What Video Track said is the most logical answer to why it sounds good but does not provide a way to consistently repeat the general idea.

Billy


Edited by Planobilly (08/05/21 05:52 AM)
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#667116 - 08/05/21 07:00 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
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Planobilly Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Related question...why does Bb sound so good in the key of C? (Or maybe it is the same question already answered and I just don't know my keys or transpositions very well!)


Hi,

I just played that Bb idea on the piano in a simple three chord progression in a more or less rock style . C, Bb, F. It does sound good and very normal.

It has at least one thing in common with my question. There is only one note that does not occur in the C major scale which is Bb. So perhaps that is one of the things to experiment with.

As passing tones/chords anything is possible I assume. F# is a common "walk up chord from F to G in the key of C.

The selection of chords is also genera based. The eleventh chords Eddie was talking about sound great in jazz but would be out of place in traditional blues for example.

As I frequently say "there are no wrong notes/chords" just ones that sound better.

The girl Eddie posted the photo of, Annie Clark plays minor seconds which is a pretty irritating sound to me. Go play C and C# at the same time. It does not get much more discordant that that. Having said that she has won a Grammy so a lot of people like her.

I frequently listen to people from Berkley or North Texas University in Denton Texas, both world famous music school. They` can play anything but often play stuff that just does not sound good to me. But...that is just me.

I never took the time and money to get a degree from a well known music school. I am sure I would think and play differently if I did.

Billy
EDIT: Also one other thing occurred to me as I have been think about this. The Bb forms the dominate seventh in the key of C. I don't clearly understand the relationship with leading tones and resolution back to the root chord. Just think out loud.



Edited by Planobilly (08/05/21 08:32 AM)
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#667118 - 08/05/21 07:08 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Bob Calver]
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Planobilly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bob Calver
or a C chord in the key of D? D-C-G is a common sequence on guitar in the key of D although I know the chords are the ones for the key of G...........

maybe key signatures are a bit more fluid than guitarists think.......


Again that three chord progression only has one note out of key for the key of D....F#.

I have to go experiment some more with chords that only have one note out of key.

Billy
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#667122 - 08/05/21 07:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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MarioD Offline
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Maybe this will help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonicization

Basically it says that a song can go through a number of temporary key signatures. Arnie Berie in his book "Chords and Progressions for Jazz and Popular Guitar" calls them key areas.

For example a chord progression in the key of C may look like this:

C-AMaj7-A6-E-E7-Am7-Dm7-G7-C.
The key areas are C - the first chord, A major - the AMaj7-A6-E-E7 then back to C.

In other words you do not have to stay in the original key signture for the entire song.

I hope this helps.

PS - if it sounds good then it is good.




Edited by MarioD (08/05/21 07:41 AM)
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#667127 - 08/05/21 08:00 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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eddie1261 Offline
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This toes the line that is the "wrong notes" and "wrong key" discussion. There is no such thing as wrong. Music has trained us to accept the concept of wrongness. There is NO wrong. There never WAS a wrong. What there IS is what we have been programmed to accept as right. Songs get written in keys for the soprano vocalist, and then that song is covered by an alto so it's dropped a 5th, and people say it's the "wrong" key. It may be the wrong key for the soprano. It is the exact right key for the alto. There is no wrong key. There are no wrong progressions. There are no wrong notes.

See this Vic Wooten video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHdo1qWNWI4
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#667128 - 08/05/21 08:02 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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Thanks Mario. The concept of tonicization is something new to me along with something call Picardy third.

I assume all these concepts are well known to classically trained musicians. In the past I never understood the value in studying classical music and hoe that information could be applied to popular music.

The more I play piano the more I have a desire to get better educated. For a large part of my life guitar music has been dominate in popular music. I got caught up in guitar like zillions of other people across the whole world. No education, just pick it up and start playing it. Learning by coping other people not having any idea of what I was doing technically.

Learning that way is not a bad thing. Mark Knopfler learned that way.

Billy
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#667142 - 08/05/21 09:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Whatever you decide you think sounds wrong now will evolve with people over time.

In jazz, you are never more than a half step ‘off’. And if the soloist plays the same ‘off’ note again, it tells people you meant it and it becomes OK.

And anything goes for a passing tone.

Charlie Parker said something like, learn the rules, then break them.

Some like Ornette Coleman broke all the rules, but I’m not convinced he could have played a C Major scale upon request. That’s different.
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#667144 - 08/05/21 09:56 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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LOL...Yes Matt, that is a classic method for fixing a guitar solo screw up. Just repeat it so everyone thinks you wanted it that way.

I know music theory is supposed to define music and not the other way around. But the more you know the more tools you have to work with.

As I have dug into this and played others here on the forums suggestion a pattern is developing with the business of using a out of key chord that only has one note out of scale.

Asking questions is one of the fast track ways for me to learn new stuff.

Also the pandemic has separated me from most of my musical friends, many of which dislike the whole computer communication thing. We are so use to interacting face to face it is difficult to change.

Billy
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#667173 - 08/05/21 02:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question New Audio track posted [Re: Planobilly]
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Planobilly Offline
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Here is a very rough draft of the general idea with many mistakes with the lead guitar I have to fix plus I have not written a vocal which will likely change everything.
I have to do some work on the C minor bridge but I am beginning to understand what I am doing from a theoretical perspective.
https://soundcloud.com/planobilly/g-minor-mixdown

All comments welcome.

Billy


Edited by Planobilly (08/05/21 02:53 PM)
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#667188 - 08/05/21 03:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A music theory question [Re: Planobilly]
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MusicStudent Offline
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Quote:
G minor, F major, E flat major, D major.


Relative Major and Minor Substitutions

A simple chord substitution is to swap out a minor chord (Dm) with its relative major (D). These chords share two of the same three notes, while the the one in the middle of the triad, is a semitone higher.

Usually you are able to have the same melody over either chord, although there will be a noticeable difference (if you have a good ear) in sound. You appear to like the difference.

The Beatles used this technique to differentiate sections of songs. The verse and chorus of “I Want to Hold Your Hand” features the Major V, but then the bridge (“And when I touch you . . .”) comes in with a minor v.

I Want to Hold Your Hand -Beatles

chorus IV V I vi IV V I

Bridge IV V IV V IV V

So you are in good company with you song writing skills. Try to mix it up each time through.
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