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Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs.

Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as oppossed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before!

How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?

Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)?

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Originally Posted By: Dewey_MI
Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as opposed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before!


What you said.

Lyrics are very important to me.

I rarely write lyrics first. If I do, I very rarely put them to music, although it has happened from time to time.


My music can be heard at: The Cracks
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Thanks for your response!

You bring up another interesting point to discuss. Do most folks write lyrics or melody first - or - how many write both at the same time?

Do you sometimes do topline writing which is much easier with BIAB?

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Absolutely. I enjoy cowriting as well. I tend to start with ideas of a title or a concept and start writing from there. Every now and then , I pick an idea and write to that idea.

Whatever it takes to get it done.


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What are lyrics says the guy who writes instrumentals grin

Actually when I or when BobH and I write songs with lyrics the lyrics always come first, then the melody, chords, and finally the style. But the melody, chords, and style order is often changed and could be in any order.


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We both love well done instrumentals of many genres.

Even though I do most of our lyric writing Janice is more attentive to lyrics in the music we listen to.

Me? I kinda treat a vocal like an instrument and if it is soulful and exhibits interesting phrasing I can easily attend to that more than the lyric. Of course that might be a function of my long since shot ears smile

Having blathered that I do like “connect your own dots” lyrics that give the listener an opportunity to possibly participate.

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Lyrics are my main source of enjoyment in song writing. Sometimes the lyrics come first and sometimes the music. I think how you really get better is to write more. Write about what you know about. My best songs come to me so fast sometimes it is hard to get them on paper before I forget what they are.

I often try to write to a idea. The girl that left me. The girl that I wish would leave me...lol Playing music on the road. Dark songs about drug use and how it has killed my friends.

Protest song, which I have stopped writing because everyone has got so politically correct.

I have one I am working at the moment. I played it on guitar for my wife and she said NO you can not post that or sing it on the street corner. So I am trying to tone down the ignorant redneck vernacular I actually wanted to use. The song may never come together. Most everything gets re-written to some extent to fit the music. I find that if I have had some chord progression rolling around in my head for weeks, sooner or later a song comes out.

I have played in a bunch of biker bars and could never post some of those songs here. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll is not appropriate for this forum.

I also think that for most of us we are lucky if we ever write a really good song. Tracy Chapman comes to mind. Would you even know who she is if she had not written "Give Me One Reason"

It is your job to write them and my job to listen. I may never understand what your song is really saying but someone will.

Billy

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Originally Posted By: Dewey_MI
Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs. How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?
Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)?


For me....

Non-cliche subject matter, well fleshed out lyrics with good story line are paramount in my writing drivel....always has been.
It may take me weeks to finish the lyrics to my satisfaction, sometimes less.
The only method I've used to, as you say 'improve', is to keep writing.

Sometimes the music comes first and I'll write on a subject that I feel fits.
Sometimes the subject comes first and I'll develop the music that fits the subject.
Like most here, I've written from all approaches.

Many of my songs reflect personal experience and several are written just using my imagination.

I write because it's creative therapy for me.
I prefer to write alone....but I have collaborated on a few in the past.
I have no illusions that what I write is a masterpiece or that it will have any mass appeal.
I don't write love songs, or about political angst/protesting subjects and mentally tune out when I hear one. (just personal taste)
That writing approach alone ensures I'll never have mass appeal. smile


If any of my peers here or elsewhere give my songs a listen and comment favorably....that works for me.

The only 'evaluation services' I've ever used is on this forum and one other music forum. (https://www.tdpri.com/forums/)

I wish all good luck with their music/song writing endeavors.
Did I ever mention 'this song writing stuff is not easy'?

Carry on....

Last edited by chulaivet1966; 08/10/21 10:22 AM.
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I agree very much with what Bud said.

Here's bit more, though. Lyrics are very important to me when what I am doing is going to be a song. They are not important to me at all when what I am doing is not going to be a song. I usually don't know with absolute certainty what it's going to be when I sit down. This was true when I was plunking and/or banging on an acoustic. It's more keenly true when populating data on an .sgu.

"Lyrics" are a different beast than "poems". They are sub-species of a common ancestor. Lyrics are the sound they make, and the rhythm they keep when sung or delivered. They are musical elements above all else. When they are not sung or delivered, they don't qualify as lyrics at all. They simply don't fit the definition.

It might be fun to sit down with another person with some flair for language and a sense of melodic flow and write a lyric. I've never done that. I have, at times, traded lines (with a common melody and cadence) until we both figured we were done. It turned out pretty well, this tug-o-war. I've also gotten and given help with an extra verse, or gotten or given help with polishing a line or more.

It might be fun to take somebody else's words and turn them into a lyric. Other than stealing overheard phrases and a very few suggestions, I've not done much of that either. My hunch is, it might be a collaboration fraught with minefields...but not everybody is a prima donna.

My own #1 rule for songwriting is: Don't be boring. If you are boring, pretend you are someone who isn't boring.

Maybe I'm just more boring than I used to be.


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I work with a lot of other songwriters and so I know the process is different for everyone. There is no "one way."

For myself, I am striving to get into a hypnotic zone that is an invisible poetic territory--where I am channeling a certain spirit that takes hold of me.

As a writer, I know the ritual of ceaseless editing, but I don't do that with songs. For me, lyric writing is a kind of magic or mysticism.

I will strum the guitar or bang on the piano or check out some BIAB demos until the words start to flow. It is important to me that the words and music are inseparable. I don't write them separately, I have to write them together, so that the sound of the words matches the sound of the notes.

This probably sounds spooky, and maybe it is, but I kind of have to go into a trance to write lyrics.

For me it is the most important part. I have been playing the guitar since I was a little kid so I can do that part in my sleep.

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Cool post David

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Lyrics are very important, and sometimes they more or flows easily while shredding the guitar - and then the BIAB work starts afterwards. Most of the time I sense a mood in a song and know the lyrical direction, but finish 80% of the compositions first - then I have a few phrases or keywords that evolve from that process.

The fine tuning of the lyrics and possible corrections to the composition can be anything from a joyride to a painful process.

Do you ever go through the full process and then ending up feeling that the whole idea got lost "in translation", and then put it into the archive of songs not to publish....after 1 or 2 years you stumble across the song and know exactly what it needs to give the song a re-birth?


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Peters Garage,

I have definitely had song ideas needing time to ferment before the right angle is perceived. It's like a light bulb sometimes, eh?

Personally, my ability to write songs that connect to others has grown exponentially since I joined NSAI and started receiving feedback on my songs.

Dewey

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I often write lyrics first but not always. Never with an instrument in hand. My cowriter and I might write to a scratch tune that I'll replace later but we got away from that after a few years.

If a song, I'll set the lyrics to a tune by myself later. Only then will I pick up an instrument to arrange and harmonize it.


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I thought this was an interesting approach to getting started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvtwPJsPs6c&list=PLFTcgOLQMgpKxzAtP9Slso4Om1RievKaC&index=28


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Originally Posted By: PatrickS
I thought this was an interesting approach to getting started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvtwPJsPs6c&list=PLFTcgOLQMgpKxzAtP9Slso4Om1RievKaC&index=28



You learn something new every day! I would never thought of that idea. Cool

Billy

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Yes, I have heard others call this "scaffolding"; however, this guy takes it to the next level. Specifically, the exact method this guys discusses would be more geared toward the novice (as the video title implies).

I have used it to write songs in genres I'm not as comfortable in and need guidance. Not using the melody, per se, but the meter and phrasing of the lyrics.

Thanks for sharing!

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Lyrics are very important . Just don't write another freakin' "LOVE" song!!!

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Some say the world has had enough of silly love songs.
But I look around me and I see it isn't so.
Oh no.
Some people ask me who is Gary Weder.
I scratch my head and say that I don't know.
And so I sit right down and write another silly love song
what's wrong with that?
I'd like to know
So here I go
Again!!!!!!

Hmmmmmm........

Yeah, I think this is gonna work.

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I grew up in the time of radio and the beginning of television. That was my only exposure to music. I did not have any exposure to people who were educated in those early years. I was left to my own devices as to what to consider about music.

How could I possibly consider the music in any other way than I liked it or I did not? I did speak English so at least I could understand the words. Lyrics? I am sure at that time I didn't even know what that word meant.

So, from the very beginning "lyrics" were the only thing I could readily relate to. As time passed and I was exposed to people like Bob Dylan I listened to things like this.

"The lampost stands with folded arms, its iron claws attached
To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail though it shadows metal badge
All in all, can only fall with a crashing but meaningless blow
No sound ever comes from the gates of Eden".

If you were alive at the time this came out it would be unusual to not consider Dylan one of the great lyricists. No, I did not read things like " the force that through the green fuse drives the flower" a line from Dylan Thomas. I was a part of a musical culture where all these songs had meaning in our lives far exceeding what I think goes on today. Of course, we didn't have a smartphone to distract us.

Are lyrics important? Well, not so much to Miles Davis or Igor Stravinsky perhaps.

Without lyrics, most popular music could not exist. You can not sing rhythm in the shower.

As to lyrical content or the importance of lyrics for me personally, very few people are going to take notice of anything I write to begin with. My opinion drowns in a sea of humanity.

Billy

EDIT: After looking at this with Grammarly it appears I am uneducated in the use of commas. I also corrected Dylan...lol

Last edited by Planobilly; 08/19/21 01:59 PM.
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Standing on the water, casting your bread
While the eyes of the idol with the iron head are glowing
Distant ships sailing into the mist
You were born with a snake in both of your fists while a hurricane was blowing
Freedom just around the corner for you
But with truth so far off, what good will it do.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.


--Bob Dylan
Jokerman, Infidels

Some things are just immortal--and never grow old.

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David wrote < "Some people ask me who is Gary Weder.">
I can inform you David that as a musician/songwriter I am on a happy mission from nowhere to oblivion . However as a passionate consumer of music I have personal, if unpopular, opinions which I rarely, if ever, express here for the fear of upsetting anyone. A justifiable apprehension in view of your response.

David wrote < "And so I sit right down and write another silly love song" >
But of course you do David , It's the path of least resistance.

David wrote <" what's wrong with that?" >
Well thankyou David for asking . Being one of those "some people" that Paul refers to: I prefer lyrics to be considerably less maudlin . They do not need to be sophisticated , articulate or clever but they hopefully should contain some elements of interesting , motivating ,enlightening and thought provoking doses of ethos and working class world views. And if your lyrics make me laugh then you are the jewel in the songwriting crown.

David wrote <" I'd like to know">
Apparently David you channelize so would you mind contacting John Lennon and ask him.

David wrote <" So here I go Again!!!!!!">

Hallelujah David, there-in lies the problem !!!!!!!!!! Now I know you do not care David but I am quite conducive to the occasional Love song myself. Yes I know it's hard to believe but I have fallen into the odd Mush pit. However ( the all important IMO ) a repeat offender of said faux pas indicates to me a possible bereft of creativity.
IOW One love song is ok. A production line of them is not.

David wrote <"Hmmmmmm........">
Finally David opines in his own words, and yes I agree : contemplation is a good thing.

David wrote < " Yeah, I think this is gonna work.">
I certainly hope so David, I am keen to test my new Millsandboonitis filter.

Happy Trails David
regards
Gary Weder

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I asked John and this is what he said:

Imagine Gary
and David
sharing all the world!
You may say that I'm a dreamer
but I'm not the only one
What's wrong with writing songs
in Band in a Box
and trying to have a little fun

Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazón


What does that mean???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder



Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazón[/i]

What does that mean???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!



WHEN FOR MUCH OF MY LOVE OF HAPPY HEART.


Rock and roll doesn't have to make sense.... somebody famous said that I heard.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/19/21 10:06 AM.

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David.

John is indeed a wise man.

He would be glad for us to put this particular chicka ferdy to bed.

Best Regards
Gary.

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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
......................
Rock and roll doesn't have to make sense.... somebody famous said that I heard.


You mean like "Tin Roof - Rusted"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOryJvTAGs


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Love songs are difficult to write. Well, in my limited knowledge of them if one attempts to avoid mawkishness, sentimentality and buffoonery they are. That's the same with most lyrics too.
My two most recent songs took next to no time to write lyrics for because I wrote fewer lyrics than usual - for me.
With The Half Life Of Truth I wrote a full lyric and then dismissed the parts that didn't suggest a melody within a couple of days. I also tracked the vocals as the snippets of melody arrived rather than as an whole thing. As a result the lyrics are scant and that works for the song that is more impression than suggestion.
With Stinging Eyes I wrote the whole lyric in half an hour, it is probably evident... I TRIED to write more but any/everything else cluttered the narrative or was less easily understood in the quick burst the music offered.
One that's currently under construction, with the working title Emerald Bridge,came into being after a melody was constructed. The melody had to be restructured to accommodate the lyric as the narrative had its own pattern and flow which won the day.
I can't do them but Floyd Jane does "love songs" all the time and does them rather splendidly...he varies his perspective, writes with a good vocabulary and doesn't take the Paul McCartney road.
For me lyrics are important because I like words and I can wrangle them better than I can sounds. I started writing songs in collaboration for that reason.
I like junk lyrics, fun lyrics, serious lyrics and pretentious lyrics.
I don't like lyrics occasionally, say when Dylan tries to force something from a lifestyle choice like all of his stuff after he was born again or when Al Stewart started writing about things and his elite vintner experiences.
BUT I even like My Dog's Dead country sometimes.
If you can fake sincerity you'll probably catch me.
One of the 1st 7" I bought as a kid was Honey by Bobby Goldsboro. I've been fascinated by that sort of "Death Song" or super pathos laden song soaked in schmaltz, mawkish, exploitative and often very, very bad. I also love Robot Monster & Plan 9 From Outer Space...is this a pattern?

Last edited by rayc; 08/20/21 07:42 PM.

Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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For all who may need some new ideas...

Here are some love song ideas I found in The Lyric writers' workroom.

Young Love & First Love

Desire & Seduction

Taboos & Forbidden Love

Searching & Singlehood

Loneliness & Longing

Crushes, Infatuation, & New Loves

Romance & Commitment

Jealousy & Rivalry

Rejections, Breakups, & Divorce

Complications & Conflicts

What is love anyway? I love my MTV?...lol

Love song lyrics I like by Mr.John Prine

"Lydia
Lydia hid her thoughts like a cat
Behind her small eyes sunk deep in her fat.
She read romance magazines up in her room
And felt just like sunday on saturday afternoon."

Billy

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And as an addendum David , I concede that I deserved your "slap on the wrist" for making a blanket statement without arguments to back it up.
best regards
Gary.

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Re. lyrics.
on each song i create i work very very hard on lyrics.
(as well as other song aspects).
whether my lyrics are any good ? lol.

my attitude is i try and create songs that make "me happy".
and if other people like them, thats just great.

i just think song creators can drive themselves nuts worrying what the rest of the world thinks of their song.
ie "paralysis by analysis",. ive actually come across people
who never finish a song cos they are worried bout what other people think. this is not healthy imho.

best
om


my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs
(90 songs created useing bb/rb)
(lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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I am sorry guys but I don't write love songs. I did try once...lol

https://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw/audio-output-6

Don't shoot me, I'm just an old guy and have lost my mind...lol

Billy

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I love lyrics; I began learning english at 12 not to get a job but to try to understand the songs I liked (and computer books); and yes, love songs are my favourites but I can appreciate "Cortez the killer" (Neil Young) too


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Special offers available until August 31st, 2026!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1-22 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 22 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 22.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 22 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 22 requires the 2026 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Introducing XPro Styles PAK 11 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2026 and Higher!

XPro Styles PAK 11 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 (and higher) is here with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 31 RealTracks/RealDrums!

Guess who’s back again? That’s right! It’s our XPro Styles PAK’s triumphant return with the 11th edition in this series! 100 new styles are coming your way spread across the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres. And this edition's wildcard genre explores the immense and far-reaching catalogue of electronic music! The included 31 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.

Special offers available until August 31st, 2026!

All the XPro Styles PAKs 1-11 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 11 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2026 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 22 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2026 and Higher!

Xtra Styles PAK 22 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2026 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

It’s time to celebrate! Xtra Styles PAK 22 for Band-in-a-Box® is here, and we've got 200 brand-new styles coming your way!

No Xtra Styles PAK is complete without the classic rock & pop, jazz, and country volumes you know and love, and we’ve got plenty to share, with 150 styles spread across too many genres to list! Of course, it also wouldn’t be complete with our special wildcard volume to add a little spice and pizzazz to the mix. This year, because we loved it so much the first time, we’ve decided to make the second iteration of our SynthMaster volume, full of new sounds, interesting genres, and 50 engaging styles, all making use of the diverse SynthMaster plugin! Here you can find genres such as airy yacht rock, sultry electrotango, and even some synth soca funk. Don’t wait, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 22 today!

In this PAK you can find: dulcet folk ballads, funky gospel country, Brazilian jazz fusion, upbeat 1980s pop, classic Americana, a plethora of breezy bossa novas, indie singer-songwriter, scintillating synthwave, exuberant electronica, and many, many more!

Special offers available until August 31st, 2026!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1-22 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 22 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 22.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 22 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 22 requires the 2026 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Peter Gannon Talks Band-in-a-Box with zplane

zplane recently interviewed Peter Gannon, the founder and creator of Band-in-a-Box, about the software's early days, what sets it apart from AI, how zplane's audio algorithms are used in Band-in-a-Box, and more!

Special thanks to the team at zplane for their continued support.

Check out the full interview here: https://products.zplane.de/blog/peter-gannon-interview-pg-music

Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!

Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PDT today!

We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.

Another exciting new addition is the amazing new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. View the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to transcribe an entire track or transcribe specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.

There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!

Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Mac® to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!

Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.

If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Special Offers Extended Until May 31st!

Good news- we've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® special offers until May 31, 2026!

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 is packed with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can transcribe an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!

There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.

When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PDT on May 31st, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.

Check out the Band-in-a-Box® for Mac packages page to find the best package for you.

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