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Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs.
Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as oppossed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before!
How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?
Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)?
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Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as opposed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before! What you said. Lyrics are very important to me. I rarely write lyrics first. If I do, I very rarely put them to music, although it has happened from time to time.
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Thanks for your response!
You bring up another interesting point to discuss. Do most folks write lyrics or melody first - or - how many write both at the same time?
Do you sometimes do topline writing which is much easier with BIAB?
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Absolutely. I enjoy cowriting as well. I tend to start with ideas of a title or a concept and start writing from there. Every now and then , I pick an idea and write to that idea.
Whatever it takes to get it done.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What are lyrics says the guy who writes instrumentals  Actually when I or when BobH and I write songs with lyrics the lyrics always come first, then the melody, chords, and finally the style. But the melody, chords, and style order is often changed and could be in any order.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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We both love well done instrumentals of many genres. Even though I do most of our lyric writing Janice is more attentive to lyrics in the music we listen to. Me? I kinda treat a vocal like an instrument and if it is soulful and exhibits interesting phrasing I can easily attend to that more than the lyric. Of course that might be a function of my long since shot ears  Having blathered that I do like “connect your own dots” lyrics that give the listener an opportunity to possibly participate. Bud
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Lyrics are my main source of enjoyment in song writing. Sometimes the lyrics come first and sometimes the music. I think how you really get better is to write more. Write about what you know about. My best songs come to me so fast sometimes it is hard to get them on paper before I forget what they are.
I often try to write to a idea. The girl that left me. The girl that I wish would leave me...lol Playing music on the road. Dark songs about drug use and how it has killed my friends.
Protest song, which I have stopped writing because everyone has got so politically correct.
I have one I am working at the moment. I played it on guitar for my wife and she said NO you can not post that or sing it on the street corner. So I am trying to tone down the ignorant redneck vernacular I actually wanted to use. The song may never come together. Most everything gets re-written to some extent to fit the music. I find that if I have had some chord progression rolling around in my head for weeks, sooner or later a song comes out.
I have played in a bunch of biker bars and could never post some of those songs here. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll is not appropriate for this forum.
I also think that for most of us we are lucky if we ever write a really good song. Tracy Chapman comes to mind. Would you even know who she is if she had not written "Give Me One Reason"
It is your job to write them and my job to listen. I may never understand what your song is really saying but someone will.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs. How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?
Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)? For me.... Non-cliche subject matter, well fleshed out lyrics with good story line are paramount in my writing drivel....always has been. It may take me weeks to finish the lyrics to my satisfaction, sometimes less. The only method I've used to, as you say 'improve', is to keep writing. Sometimes the music comes first and I'll write on a subject that I feel fits. Sometimes the subject comes first and I'll develop the music that fits the subject. Like most here, I've written from all approaches. Many of my songs reflect personal experience and several are written just using my imagination. I write because it's creative therapy for me. I prefer to write alone....but I have collaborated on a few in the past. I have no illusions that what I write is a masterpiece or that it will have any mass appeal. I don't write love songs, or about political angst/protesting subjects and mentally tune out when I hear one. (just personal taste) That writing approach alone ensures I'll never have mass appeal. If any of my peers here or elsewhere give my songs a listen and comment favorably....that works for me. The only 'evaluation services' I've ever used is on this forum and one other music forum. ( https://www.tdpri.com/forums/) I wish all good luck with their music/song writing endeavors. Did I ever mention 'this song writing stuff is not easy'? Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 08/10/21 10:22 AM.
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I agree very much with what Bud said.
Here's bit more, though. Lyrics are very important to me when what I am doing is going to be a song. They are not important to me at all when what I am doing is not going to be a song. I usually don't know with absolute certainty what it's going to be when I sit down. This was true when I was plunking and/or banging on an acoustic. It's more keenly true when populating data on an .sgu.
"Lyrics" are a different beast than "poems". They are sub-species of a common ancestor. Lyrics are the sound they make, and the rhythm they keep when sung or delivered. They are musical elements above all else. When they are not sung or delivered, they don't qualify as lyrics at all. They simply don't fit the definition.
It might be fun to sit down with another person with some flair for language and a sense of melodic flow and write a lyric. I've never done that. I have, at times, traded lines (with a common melody and cadence) until we both figured we were done. It turned out pretty well, this tug-o-war. I've also gotten and given help with an extra verse, or gotten or given help with polishing a line or more.
It might be fun to take somebody else's words and turn them into a lyric. Other than stealing overheard phrases and a very few suggestions, I've not done much of that either. My hunch is, it might be a collaboration fraught with minefields...but not everybody is a prima donna.
My own #1 rule for songwriting is: Don't be boring. If you are boring, pretend you are someone who isn't boring.
Maybe I'm just more boring than I used to be.
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I work with a lot of other songwriters and so I know the process is different for everyone. There is no "one way."
For myself, I am striving to get into a hypnotic zone that is an invisible poetic territory--where I am channeling a certain spirit that takes hold of me.
As a writer, I know the ritual of ceaseless editing, but I don't do that with songs. For me, lyric writing is a kind of magic or mysticism.
I will strum the guitar or bang on the piano or check out some BIAB demos until the words start to flow. It is important to me that the words and music are inseparable. I don't write them separately, I have to write them together, so that the sound of the words matches the sound of the notes.
This probably sounds spooky, and maybe it is, but I kind of have to go into a trance to write lyrics.
For me it is the most important part. I have been playing the guitar since I was a little kid so I can do that part in my sleep.
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New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Lyrics are very important, and sometimes they more or flows easily while shredding the guitar - and then the BIAB work starts afterwards. Most of the time I sense a mood in a song and know the lyrical direction, but finish 80% of the compositions first - then I have a few phrases or keywords that evolve from that process.
The fine tuning of the lyrics and possible corrections to the composition can be anything from a joyride to a painful process.
Do you ever go through the full process and then ending up feeling that the whole idea got lost "in translation", and then put it into the archive of songs not to publish....after 1 or 2 years you stumble across the song and know exactly what it needs to give the song a re-birth?
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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Peters Garage,
I have definitely had song ideas needing time to ferment before the right angle is perceived. It's like a light bulb sometimes, eh?
Personally, my ability to write songs that connect to others has grown exponentially since I joined NSAI and started receiving feedback on my songs.
Dewey
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I often write lyrics first but not always. Never with an instrument in hand. My cowriter and I might write to a scratch tune that I'll replace later but we got away from that after a few years.
If a song, I'll set the lyrics to a tune by myself later. Only then will I pick up an instrument to arrange and harmonize it.
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You learn something new every day! I would never thought of that idea. Cool Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Yes, I have heard others call this "scaffolding"; however, this guy takes it to the next level. Specifically, the exact method this guys discusses would be more geared toward the novice (as the video title implies).
I have used it to write songs in genres I'm not as comfortable in and need guidance. Not using the melody, per se, but the meter and phrasing of the lyrics.
Thanks for sharing!
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Lyrics are very important . Just don't write another freakin' "LOVE" song!!!
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Some say the world has had enough of silly love songs.
But I look around me and I see it isn't so.
Oh no.
Some people ask me who is Gary Weder.
I scratch my head and say that I don't know.
And so I sit right down and write another silly love song
what's wrong with that?
I'd like to know
So here I go
Again!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm........
Yeah, I think this is gonna work.
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I grew up in the time of radio and the beginning of television. That was my only exposure to music. I did not have any exposure to people who were educated in those early years. I was left to my own devices as to what to consider about music.
How could I possibly consider the music in any other way than I liked it or I did not? I did speak English so at least I could understand the words. Lyrics? I am sure at that time I didn't even know what that word meant.
So, from the very beginning "lyrics" were the only thing I could readily relate to. As time passed and I was exposed to people like Bob Dylan I listened to things like this.
"The lampost stands with folded arms, its iron claws attached
To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail though it shadows metal badge
All in all, can only fall with a crashing but meaningless blow
No sound ever comes from the gates of Eden".
If you were alive at the time this came out it would be unusual to not consider Dylan one of the great lyricists. No, I did not read things like " the force that through the green fuse drives the flower" a line from Dylan Thomas. I was a part of a musical culture where all these songs had meaning in our lives far exceeding what I think goes on today. Of course, we didn't have a smartphone to distract us.
Are lyrics important? Well, not so much to Miles Davis or Igor Stravinsky perhaps.
Without lyrics, most popular music could not exist. You can not sing rhythm in the shower.
As to lyrical content or the importance of lyrics for me personally, very few people are going to take notice of anything I write to begin with. My opinion drowns in a sea of humanity.
Billy
EDIT: After looking at this with Grammarly it appears I am uneducated in the use of commas. I also corrected Dylan...lol
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/19/21 01:59 PM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Standing on the water, casting your bread
While the eyes of the idol with the iron head are glowing
Distant ships sailing into the mist
You were born with a snake in both of your fists while a hurricane was blowing
Freedom just around the corner for you
But with truth so far off, what good will it do.
Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.
--Bob Dylan
Jokerman, Infidels
Some things are just immortal--and never grow old.
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David wrote < "Some people ask me who is Gary Weder.">
I can inform you David that as a musician/songwriter I am on a happy mission from nowhere to oblivion . However as a passionate consumer of music I have personal, if unpopular, opinions which I rarely, if ever, express here for the fear of upsetting anyone. A justifiable apprehension in view of your response.
David wrote < "And so I sit right down and write another silly love song" >
But of course you do David , It's the path of least resistance.
David wrote <" what's wrong with that?" >
Well thankyou David for asking . Being one of those "some people" that Paul refers to: I prefer lyrics to be considerably less maudlin . They do not need to be sophisticated , articulate or clever but they hopefully should contain some elements of interesting , motivating ,enlightening and thought provoking doses of ethos and working class world views. And if your lyrics make me laugh then you are the jewel in the songwriting crown.
David wrote <" I'd like to know">
Apparently David you channelize so would you mind contacting John Lennon and ask him.
David wrote <" So here I go Again!!!!!!">
Hallelujah David, there-in lies the problem !!!!!!!!!! Now I know you do not care David but I am quite conducive to the occasional Love song myself. Yes I know it's hard to believe but I have fallen into the odd Mush pit. However ( the all important IMO ) a repeat offender of said faux pas indicates to me a possible bereft of creativity.
IOW One love song is ok. A production line of them is not.
David wrote <"Hmmmmmm........">
Finally David opines in his own words, and yes I agree : contemplation is a good thing.
David wrote < " Yeah, I think this is gonna work.">
I certainly hope so David, I am keen to test my new Millsandboonitis filter.
Happy Trails David
regards
Gary Weder
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I asked John and this is what he said:
Imagine Gary
and David
sharing all the world!
You may say that I'm a dreamer
but I'm not the only one
What's wrong with writing songs
in Band in a Box
and trying to have a little fun
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazón
What does that mean???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazón[/i]
What does that mean???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHEN FOR MUCH OF MY LOVE OF HAPPY HEART. Rock and roll doesn't have to make sense.... somebody famous said that I heard.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/19/21 10:06 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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David.
John is indeed a wise man.
He would be glad for us to put this particular chicka ferdy to bed.
Best Regards
Gary.
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......................
Rock and roll doesn't have to make sense.... somebody famous said that I heard. You mean like "Tin Roof - Rusted"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOryJvTAGs
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Love songs are difficult to write. Well, in my limited knowledge of them if one attempts to avoid mawkishness, sentimentality and buffoonery they are. That's the same with most lyrics too.
My two most recent songs took next to no time to write lyrics for because I wrote fewer lyrics than usual - for me.
With The Half Life Of Truth I wrote a full lyric and then dismissed the parts that didn't suggest a melody within a couple of days. I also tracked the vocals as the snippets of melody arrived rather than as an whole thing. As a result the lyrics are scant and that works for the song that is more impression than suggestion.
With Stinging Eyes I wrote the whole lyric in half an hour, it is probably evident... I TRIED to write more but any/everything else cluttered the narrative or was less easily understood in the quick burst the music offered.
One that's currently under construction, with the working title Emerald Bridge,came into being after a melody was constructed. The melody had to be restructured to accommodate the lyric as the narrative had its own pattern and flow which won the day.
I can't do them but Floyd Jane does "love songs" all the time and does them rather splendidly...he varies his perspective, writes with a good vocabulary and doesn't take the Paul McCartney road.
For me lyrics are important because I like words and I can wrangle them better than I can sounds. I started writing songs in collaboration for that reason.
I like junk lyrics, fun lyrics, serious lyrics and pretentious lyrics.
I don't like lyrics occasionally, say when Dylan tries to force something from a lifestyle choice like all of his stuff after he was born again or when Al Stewart started writing about things and his elite vintner experiences.
BUT I even like My Dog's Dead country sometimes.
If you can fake sincerity you'll probably catch me.
One of the 1st 7" I bought as a kid was Honey by Bobby Goldsboro. I've been fascinated by that sort of "Death Song" or super pathos laden song soaked in schmaltz, mawkish, exploitative and often very, very bad. I also love Robot Monster & Plan 9 From Outer Space...is this a pattern?
Last edited by rayc; 08/20/21 07:42 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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For all who may need some new ideas...
Here are some love song ideas I found in The Lyric writers' workroom.
Young Love & First Love
Desire & Seduction
Taboos & Forbidden Love
Searching & Singlehood
Loneliness & Longing
Crushes, Infatuation, & New Loves
Romance & Commitment
Jealousy & Rivalry
Rejections, Breakups, & Divorce
Complications & Conflicts
What is love anyway? I love my MTV?...lol
Love song lyrics I like by Mr.John Prine
"Lydia
Lydia hid her thoughts like a cat
Behind her small eyes sunk deep in her fat.
She read romance magazines up in her room
And felt just like sunday on saturday afternoon."
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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And as an addendum David , I concede that I deserved your "slap on the wrist" for making a blanket statement without arguments to back it up.
best regards
Gary.
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Re. lyrics.
on each song i create i work very very hard on lyrics.
(as well as other song aspects).
whether my lyrics are any good ? lol.
my attitude is i try and create songs that make "me happy".
and if other people like them, thats just great.
i just think song creators can drive themselves nuts worrying what the rest of the world thinks of their song.
ie "paralysis by analysis",. ive actually come across people
who never finish a song cos they are worried bout what other people think. this is not healthy imho.
best
om
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,520 |
I am sorry guys but I don't write love songs. I did try once...lol https://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw/audio-output-6Don't shoot me, I'm just an old guy and have lost my mind...lol Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117 |
I love lyrics; I began learning english at 12 not to get a job but to try to understand the songs I liked (and computer books); and yes, love songs are my favourites but I can appreciate "Cortez the killer" (Neil Young) too
Bernard Rasson
BIAB Audiophile 2021, BIAB Megapak 2015 (for midi-only projects), Cakewalk, Roland XV-5080, Roland Fantom XR, Aria AC60 Nylon Strings Guitar, Almansa Spanish Guitar, Fender Stratocaster Japan, two laptops
Je parle français
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,587
Posts734,734
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