Just to set some fences, lets say you have a two octave vocal range or a bit less. We can call this a melody or a top line if you like.
Lets just take a E major trad to A major trad for example.
I assume a good note to start on is the fifth of E major (B) Lets assume no passing notes for the moment. So we could descend in scale and or back up but if we stopped on F# ( the last note before the chord change) the only note that sounds logical to me is the third of A major (C#)
Better ideas?
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
Interesting post. This is certainly something that most people (including myself for sure) should pay more attention to, so I am intentional about it. Lazy melodies are not catchy, and often monotonous, literally. As in monotone.
Here is a snippet of Hey Jude showing the notes leading in to the chorus, and the chorus.
Since these are "male vocals" they are written one octave up like guitar music, which makes it convenient. You can easily play then on the fretboard in first position. See tab.
Now this song is in F, but note that the lowest note in the whole thing is an E on the d string second fret, and the highest note is a G on the first string third fret. Not much more than an octave range, give or take. The higher notes, of course are saved for the chorus.
My point is, there aren't A LOT of notes, or even a great range, but the notes are carefully chosen.
In your example, in the A chord, you could use a C# sure, but you also could go A to C# or E to C#, or any number of things--but the point is, first pluck the notes on your guitar until it starts to sound interesting in that very simple range, then sing THAT.
A lot of people just walk up to the mic and start singing (no melody planning) and it sounds boring.
So, yes, we should all sit down at a piano or pick up the guitar and pick out the melody more often, if we want to write something as catchy as Hey Jude. We need to fiddle with our melodies more--and maybe I mean that literally too.
Does that make sense??
(P.S. A lot of pop songs these days after two note melodies and that seems all the range, so maybe all of this is moot.)
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
The heart. I search for a melody, and the chords just fall in place.
In my view, a great song isn't written, it's 'found'.
That concept preempts considerations like 'do I do this, or that?" etc, because the song is what it is, if you go about it in the manner described. A flower grows the way it is, it's not 'crafted'. If you don't approach in this manner, but more in the 'craft' manner, then your point comes into play. If that is the case, then I wouldn't craft it more than an octave and a third or so. See, my goal is to get others to cover it, and not everyone has a great range. But, that being said, getting back to the premise of this comment....
It's been there all along, all you have to do is find it.
Just as a great sculptor chips away to the sculpture that was there all along. Now, technically speaking, the sculpture was crafted, as was the song, I'm just trying to get you to look at it from another angle, for if you do, though it isn't easy, might even require some luck, you just might write a better song.
All other songs, lesser songs, those are the songs that are written.
Could any other notes improve "Hey Jude"? Or "Because" or "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head"? How about the notes to 'IF' by Bread, or "Both Sides Now" or "Scarborough Fair" ?
Those songs are like jewels, just waiting to be discovered.
Non jewel tunes are written. Jewel songs are there waiting to be found, and first finder, keepers.
Of course, this is a philosophical concept, and sure, the song is written, just giving a 'concept', a new way of looking at it.
And, noting that modern pop songs are all crafted, written, and most pop tunes on the radio have the same darn four chords, a fact brought to my attention by Rick Beato's YouTube channel. That fact is really sad, because in my youth, the 60s throughout the 70s, that was not the case. I think the Beatles only wrote a couple of songs using the current popular four chords ( and I'm not even getting into 'songs with beat tracks', that world makes no sense to me at all, I'm old school, I guess ).
I thought this was a serious question, but now looking back on it, I see it might have been just a joke I fell into. Oh well, I tried to be helpful. I won't do it again. I promise.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
I thought this was a serious question, but now looking back on it, I see it might have been just a joke I fell into. Oh well, I tried to be helpful. I won't do it again. I promise.
David, this was absolutely a serious question. I joke with Bud all the time so don't let that distract you.
One of the reasons I am not very fond of much of the music being produced today is that it has little or no melody. It is basically rhythmic sound. You can not hum rhythm in the shower. Melody is what we remember about a song.
I can play you famous chord progressions and you likely can not name the song. I can also play you rhythm patterns from well known song and you can not name them.
I assume if a person went to a serious music school and was well versed in music theory they could describe some complex ideas about melody.
I don't have that sort of education so I ask questions here and many other places.
Your post was intelligent and was exactly the sort of discussion I was looking for.
There are skilled vocalist who have beautiful voices that sound second rate do to poor melody or "top lines" that they are singing.
I am not trying to reduce melody into some un-alterable algorithm but there must be a way to make better guesses at what would sound the best.
I am sorry if my post are verbose but I don't know how to express most things in one liners.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/14/2107:55 AM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
Ok, then, since it IS serious and I know it, I will try again, and bear in mind this is what I have to tell MYSELF every day when I sit down to write. I know I am guilty of lazy melodies at times and I try and work on that.
If you follow Rick Beato you will see him rant on and on about how a lot of music today sucks and is lazy and has a two note melody. He is right.
I bet you a million Paul McCartney sat at his piano and fiddled with those Hey Jude notes until he thought they were perfect. THEN he sang. Today, most people just walk up to the mic and blurt out whatever comes into their heads. It is LAZY.
SO, all I am saying is, if you have a song in a certain key, say E, and you are a typical tenor or baritone, you will sing most songs in ONE octave plus or minus one or two notes. Just find the lowest note in your range on the fretboard and highest note, and fiddle with it for hours until it doesn't suck anymore (I am talking to myself here) and save the highest notes for the rise and chorus.
No need to worry so much at first about what notes go with what chords. Chords can wrap themselves around a melody as long as the notes are in the scale--and the surprises are often pleasant.
For example, try writing ONLY the melody line sometime first and then layer in the chords underneath, as the bed. That is, write the top line FIRST, then the chords. Just try it. It's fun. Experiment. What you discover will surprise you. Like: "Dang, I never thought an F#m would work there but it damn sure does!!!"
Bottom line: you have affirmed what I know to be essential.
In order for melodies not to suck, you simply have to sit down with a guitar or piano and tediously work them out until they are sing-a-long and catchy. Or they will suck.
Hope that makes more sense. I know it sounds like common sense but few people do it.
P.S. I don't think there is a way to make better guesses. You don't have that many notes to choose from in a given vocal scale. There are millions of ways those notes can be combined though. You simply have to fool around with an instrument until something original and catchy happens and you hear it.
Truly great melodies defy algorithms and "methods." They are surprising. "Surprising" hates rules. You just have to play.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
A couple of things come to mind. Of course vocalist like any other craftsperson can get lazy about their work but I think in many cases they just don't know any better.
The deeper I get into songwriting the more I understand how truly complex it is. I would guess some really memorable songs came about by accident but the vast majority were well thought out. That could mean considerable experimentation or a high degree of technical skill as a songwriter.
It is a little difficult to have a conversation about these issues in writing. It would be much less trouble if we were setting side by side in front of the piano or guitars.
At some level the choice of what notes to sing becomes personal preference and as this is art and as such should not have to many boundaries. People play minor seconds now days. That is a pretty irritating sound to me but others like it. There is no accounting for such likes and dislikes.
It is obvious that any note chromatically can be played/sung. This is not about being right or wrong but if the vocalist sustains a C# over a C major chord it will sound discordant as hell.
Melody can function melodically, rhythmically, and harmonically all at the same time. Getting all that well done takes a lot of skill and plane old hard work.
I think your comment about developing the melody first is a good idea.
I will be ever so glad when this pandemic is over as I am truly tired of working musically alone.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
I just tried something a few seconds ago on the piano that worked out really well.
I have an entire Cakewalk Board set up with tracks that only have a band playing the same chord over and over, like C, for example, in a Celtic style for example. I will use these drones to practice scales against, like piano or violin, so scale practice times doesn't get so boring.
Well, I just let that C chord in a Celtic band run and I sat down at the piano and fiddled with a melody until it started to sound great. (Not talking chromatics, Billy, just plain old C scale notes.)
The melody is cool now.
Later, I can use that melody and add in the chords.
That's the kind of experimentation I am talking about.
I think with all of our technology we try and let the computer do too much. Sometimes you have to play and find the notes, and it can take hours. As wonderful as technology is, you can't just push a few buttons and have a really interesting song.
A suitable bed, yes, of course, but a full blown song--no.
That takes patience.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
I often do sort of the same thing, Loop a single chord in my DAW or in BIAB or perhaps even three chords. I then try different in scale melody lines. By the way I have to write them out note for note to remember them or record it at that moment.
I also critically often listen to horn players like Charlie Parker. Those horn guys can only play one note at a time. Charlie Parkes plays stuff every guitar player should listen to.
BIAB comes and goes for me. Some days I really like it and some days I curse it like a red headed step child. For me it is useful for coming up with ideas. I have never created a song only using BIAB
My preference is live musicians in a studio with a engineer. All this software stuff is useful but I almost always develop ideas first on guitar or piano. I should have been born both rich and good looking...lol
If I have nothing in mind I listen to drum tracks until something comes up I like. I generally then have some chord progression in mind and play it out on bass guitar or piano. When I compose in that fashion it automatically puts some "fences" around the melody.
It is not just the notes also. Things need to be arranged. How many times have you listen to the piano player, the guitar player and the singer play the same note in the same register at the same time. That is how you make mud out of music.
well...I was up very late last night rebuilding one of my computers. I think it is about time for a nap...lol
Lot of good stuff from you....to be continued at a later time I hope.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/14/2110:19 AM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
You want a trick? Here's a trick that will (if you have some ear) "feel" like stepping up to the mic and singing more than not. It isn't better than other methods, but it "feels" familiar if you are comfortable sussing out melodies from chord movement.
TRICK:
If you have a key and a chord progression, harmonize all seven chords to at least the diatonic 7th--9th would be significantly better. This requires some base knowledge about how triads, 7th's and upper extension chords are built in a scale--it's more than just slapping a 7 or 9 onto the letter. (Here's the tasty part, though--it's likely fine if you do, for this purpose).
If you have the notes for each of the 7 chords written down now (just on paper, not necessarily on musical staff) and you don't know a lot of theory (like I don't), go here:
...and enter them. Click "find chords and scales" and write down the names of the chords that contain all your notes (and nothing else).
Now change all your triads to 7ths or 9ths. Heck, do it up to 11ths, if you feel frisky.
Open up BIAB (or grab your instrument) and enter your progression with maybe a jazz trio or quartet style. Doesn't matter if you aren't trying to do a jazz song--these cats will just play the changes.
NOW listen. Instead of just 7 notes in triads, you're going to hear them higher, lower, and in places they simply just don't show up when you're only listening to triads.
It still takes some "ear", but you are getting fed many more options about how notes in the scale can fit your changes and the experience is much richer. Your ear is going to lead you to places and notes you hadn't considered with less input.
Now learn the durn melody. Memorize it and commit it to recording. Now, you can go back and 1. Change the 7ths, 9ths, or 11ths to triads to fit your genre (simplify) or 2. find a way to leave your melody notes IN the chord underneath.
Yes, your melody will contain notes not in the chord (hopefully), but with this exact method, they will be in the key. If something still "clashes" for your genre, just adjust by a half-step or two, and it will likely work out in the same "flow", rise and fall, you came up with in the first place.
There are many variations on this theme possible, but this is the most "straight-forward". Your knowledge of theory may make a visit to the above website unnecessary...the concept is still valid--give your ears a fuller harmonic flow from which you can sing, scat, or play greater variety.
It will work in major keys, minor keys, modal "keys" and may well work in many 7-note "exotic" scales. It worked in the one I used.
SIDE NOTE: In a major key, a Imaj13 will contain all 7 of the notes of a scale. It's overkill (in my opinion) to harmonize all 7 notes of your scale to the 13th but it may be helpful to do it for the tonic.
As a song becomes more harmonically complex the available notes to pick from become larger. Common ideas such as constructing songs that go from the minor to the major to the major seventh to the minor 7 flat 5 are typical examples.
You hear these changes used in sections of “Smooth” by Santana, “Still Got the Blues” by Gary Moore, and “I Will Survive” by Gloria Gaynor Dm7 F/G Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Bm7b5 E Am is the intro to "Still Got The Blues" The melody Gary constructed is something I really like.
I think the bottom line to all this is that just walking up to the microphone and singing what ever comes to mind is one of the least effective ways to produce a memorable melody line.
Better to have things well thought out. That is not to discount the fact that "gold is where you find it" but some places to look have a much greater chance for success.
For me a combination of developing song writing skills, better theoretical understanding and just trying to be as prolific as possible in the number of songs I try to write has helped a lot.
Billy
As a side bar issue, I checked what David Snyder writes. David is a highly skilled musician who I should pay more attention to what he says. I highly recommend checking out things he has posted on Reverbnation.
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/14/2110:43 PM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
Janice will take a lyric and chord structure (either her’s or something she was handed) and then work out the melody and harmonies in her head. I never have a clue what’s gonna happen until record time. Then it’s one take and over. I ask how can you always do it in one take and she says I’ve practiced it But with doing that with earbuds I’ve rarely heard zip until mic time. When she works out progressions on the old Martin box she’s says she just tries different chords until something sounds ‘right’ and that spawns a melody.
Beats me — I’m just along for the ride. Except for the rare times I dust off the upright.
I have a friend and musical colleague who is a prodigy (kind of Mozart-like) and he works out 8 part harmonies in his head like that, but doesn't even practice them or sing them out loud until he is ready for his one takes.
He blows people's minds.
"No, I'm ready," he says, as he steps up to the mic. "I can hear it. Just hit record." Then he does it, eight times in a row.
You play it all back it and it sounds like a choral ensemble that practiced for a week.
That is not me. There are a few people like that and it is trippy.
I think the rest of us have to work it out.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
Thanks to each of you for this thought-provoking and instructional thread. It has got me to going over songs in my head, analyzing with an ear to understanding how and why some are so memorable. Speaking of which, here is a classic example, using signature Allman Brothers tragic comedy, often found in southern rock. I direct our attention to both the phrasing (the timing) and the open ended melodic construction, by which I mean the melody can vary in options (up, down, or stay the same, eighth, quarter, half, or hold) without losing punch. .............................................................................. My (G) father was a (F) gambler down in (G) Georgia. He (G) wound up on the (C) wrong end of a (D) gun. I was (C) born in the (G) back seat of a greyhound bus, (Em) rollin down (G) highway forty (G) one ............................................................................. Note: I was born in the (Happy Cmajor) -- Back seat (G) Somber G -- of a Greyhound us (Em) punch line of the joke, understated Em -- rolling down (G) here we go, southern rock -- high-way (D) anti climax humor -- forty one (G) the rest is history. I was born (Yay!)In the back seat (What!??) of a Greyhound Bus (Oh,my goodness)
I have a friend and musical colleague who is a prodigy (kind of Mozart-like) and he works out 8 part harmonies in his head like that, but doesn't even practice them or sing them out loud until he is ready for his one takes.
He blows people's minds.
"No, I'm ready," he says, as he steps up to the mic. "I can hear it. Just hit record." Then he does it, eight times in a row.
You play it all back it and it sounds like a choral ensemble that practiced for a week.
That is not me. There are a few people like that and it is trippy.
I think the rest of us have to work it out.
Our friend and mentor whom we played with for years was a child prodigy and shortly before his untimely passing was grammy nominated. Janice and I would record some rhythm tracks (guitar, mandolin and bass) along with her vocal before he would visit (after he had moved to N'ville) so we could have that out of the way for him to do his thing on. He would record a killer mando, guitar or fiddle melodic solo track and then immediately afterwards say he was ready to play harmony on another instrument or more with that track. He said he was hearing the second or third part while he was playing the lead. And this was often songs that he had no familiarity with. Janice would ask him after a solo why he was smiling during the recording and he would say he was listening to what he would do on the harmony.
Those folks have such a gift from nature that subsequent nurture can turn them into geniuses for any genre IMO.
I guess most of us that who have been around the music world know or have played with someone who knows how to do things we simply can not even come close to doing or even really understanding for that matter.
The person that played lead guitar with me for years could listen to absolutely anything and play it back note for note.
I just assume some peoples brains are just wired differently. Many of those people have also gone to the more famous music schools. I have also seen people who have gone to those schools and studied to the point they were highly skilled on their instrument. They can play a thousand notes a nanosecond and have no real "musical" ability.
Even with people who we consider to be "talented" I still think it is in most cases 2% talent and 98% hard work.
The world is a better place because of these folks and I for one feel very privileged to have played with a couple.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
I went to youtube and listen to the song again as it has been a good while sense the last time I listen to it. I tried to play along with it on the piano without much success. https://youtu.be/U3EXAiImJZI
This is a quoit from Wikipedia " The song is set in the time signature of common time, with a tempo of 182 beats per minute. It is set in the key of A-flat major. Betts's vocals range from the low-note of Ab3 to the high-note of Gb4.
The song is quite complex with a lot of over dubbing going on. It is certainly beyond my ability to listen too and analyze.
I think this is a prefect example of David Snyder's comments about the amount of time and work it can take to produce something unforgettable. The lyrics may have been written in a very short amount of time but this song was worked on for a long time before being released.
Some things come about due to circumstances totally unexpected. This song perhaps would never been written if Duane had not died.
This is another song that the first note of the vocal starts on the fifth note of the chord. I need to go analyze some other songs to see if this is a pattern.
Thanks for posting ED.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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