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#669137 - 08/19/21 01:25 PM [User Showcase] Careless Transformations
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
===> https://soundcloud.com/mark_hayes/careless-transformations-20 <===

Howdy! I’ve been doing a little experimenting that has turned out more pleasinger than I’d anticipated, so I thought I’d share!

A while ago, I shared a thing I did called “Careless Logic” (https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=663354#Post663354)

This is that song, rendered minimally with recorder and guitar, subjected to a series of basic musical transformations executed using Logic Pro’s “MIDI transform” function.

The first part is the normal song, the second is a transformation with melody and chords inverted, the third is that inversion combined with reversal, the fourth is reversal only, and the fifth is a repeat of the normal song.

A chime tree announces the changes, these are the timings of the variations:

0:00 – prime
0:54 – inversion
1:42 – retrograde inversion
2:30 – retrograde
3:18 – prime

Like I say, I decided to do this just as an experiment, but I find the results really interesting and listenable all the way through. I will definitely be playing with these venerable old compositional techniques more.

Mark

(For the record, the guitar part started life as a BIAB MIDI track, the “notation” part corresponding to a RealTrack. I think it was originally human piano, but at this point there’s not much connection left. I applied rhythmic quantization because the retrograde parts sounded awful without it.)

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#669152 - 08/19/21 05:22 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 09/02/18
Posts: 1362
Loc: Denmark
Will Josef Offline
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Registered: 09/02/18
Posts: 1362
Loc: Denmark
Hi Mark,

Beautiful melody/theme! I think the track could be even better if you had introduced a few more instruments along the way.

Thanks for sharing!
Will

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#669173 - 08/19/21 08:15 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Will Josef]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Originally Posted By: Will Josef
Beautiful melody/theme! I think the track could be even better if you had introduced a few more instruments along the way.


Thanks, Will. Maybe I'll find a way to combine the sparse medieval version with the fat country band version.

For now, I think I'd like to just clean up the prime melody (section 1) to adjust a few notes that sound really sour in the transformations, then regenerate the whole piece just from that. I would like to keep the 3 transformations strict, i.e. no editing them individually to make them sound better, the whole piece is settled in the first section.

Oh, and it would be good to fix that guitar so it doesn't sound like it's being played with hammers.

(NOTE: Just made both of these changes in version 2, now linked in the main description.)


Edited by Mark Hayes (08/19/21 10:19 PM)
Edit Reason: planned changes made

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#669285 - 08/20/21 06:17 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 07/11/15
Posts: 4490
Loc: United States
Torrey Bliss Offline
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Registered: 07/11/15
Posts: 4490
Loc: United States
Mark,

Nice melody going on here! I like the transition to a minor chord about a minute in, it really add an interesting dimension to the song! Thanks, Torrey
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#669300 - 08/20/21 08:05 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 4717
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
rayc Offline
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Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 4717
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
Interesting stuff.
I think you could pull the announcement back quite a bit.
The melody really calls for a lyric and voice in at least one section.
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#669368 - 08/21/21 10:12 AM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: rayc]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Torrey: That moment, the minor transition, is where the piece is first turned upside down.

Ray: If by "could pull the announcement back" you mean the splash jingle thing is bombastic and overdone, yeah, I agree, it was just hard to give up the sentimental attachment.

As always, thanks.

Mark


Edited by Mark Hayes (08/21/21 03:23 PM)

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#669375 - 08/21/21 11:47 AM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 6488
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 6488
Loc: North Carolina

Pretty interesting experiment!!

smile

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#669384 - 08/21/21 12:21 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 03/13/19
Posts: 23
Loc: Illinois
Skoon66 Offline
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Registered: 03/13/19
Posts: 23
Loc: Illinois
Felt very relaxing, nice. I like it with just the guitar and recorder.
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#669404 - 08/21/21 01:47 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 17872
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 17872
Loc: Hamlin NY
Mark this is excellent. Your experiment was a success!

FWIW - I would go back to just the guitar and recorder, i.e. no percussion. Then I would add a touch of reverb on the guitar and if there are layers on the guitar lower the velocity. I would also put some reverb and delay on the recorder. Please understand this is not criticism, I really like the song, I'm just explaining how I would produce a song like this one. YMMV

{edit} - I forgot to mention that I am currently doing a song that starts with a nylon guitar and a flute.


Edited by MarioD (08/21/21 01:48 PM)
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#669430 - 08/21/21 04:02 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Mark this is excellent. Your experiment was a success! FWIW - I would go back to just the guitar and recorder, i.e. no percussion. Then I would add a touch of reverb on the guitar and if there are layers on the guitar lower the velocity. I would also put some reverb and delay on the recorder. Please understand this is not criticism, I really like the song, I'm just explaining how I would produce a song like this one. YMMV


Thank you so much! And criticism is good! At least, I take yours for goodness, and can hopefully reply goodly and produce goodness in return. I am very appreciative that you take the time to comment thoughtfully on this project of mine.

The percussion was just a marker, for my own convenience as much as anything, so I could tell where the transforms start and end. I should just leave it out. There's another marker, anyway – the pitches rotate around C, and the theme begins and ends with C, so I use long held Cs to bridge one part to the next.

I agree, the guitar could be much better. At least now it sounds like a real guitar being played badly by a human. But again, to keep with the idea of the piece, I wouldn't want to make changes to anything except the "prime" transform, so any changes would have to work for ALL 4 VARIATIONS. Or I could make a change to part 2, or part 3, or part 4, but then I'd have to propagate it to part 1 and the others.

As it is, the piece evolves from normal to weird (inverted) to very weird (retrograde inverted) to weirdly familar (reversed) then back to normal. I'd like to have those weird sections be good music, not just what happened to result.

Man, if I could get this to the point where I was totally happy with all 4 sections, without breaking the no-independent-changes rule, that would be a nifty musical accomplishment. And then I get to master it!

(Good luck with your own flute/guitar thing...)

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#669431 - 08/21/21 04:06 PM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Skoon66]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Originally Posted By: Skoon66
Felt very relaxing, nice. I like it with just the guitar and recorder.


Thanks. I think I am going to keep it to that simple duo, as I work on it more.

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#669508 - 08/22/21 07:14 AM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 05/27/19
Posts: 2102
Loc: Dallas, PA, USA
BabuMusic Offline
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Registered: 05/27/19
Posts: 2102
Loc: Dallas, PA, USA
Man, that is really cool and creative, Mark. Those transitions seem seamless, and you're right about it being listenable all the way through. I'd like to hear it without the tree chimes. My favorite section was the feel in the inversion part.
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#669514 - 08/22/21 07:44 AM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: BabuMusic]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 1505
Originally Posted By: BabuMusic
I'd like to hear it without the tree chimes.


Here you go, and thanks for asking! Killed the percussion and upped the reverb a little.

https://soundcloud.com/mark_hayes/careless-nokit

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#669519 - 08/22/21 08:18 AM [User Showcase] Re: Careless Transformations [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 05/27/19
Posts: 2102
Loc: Dallas, PA, USA
BabuMusic Offline
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Registered: 05/27/19
Posts: 2102
Loc: Dallas, PA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
Originally Posted By: BabuMusic
I'd like to hear it without the tree chimes.


Here you go, and thanks for asking! Killed the percussion and upped the reverb a little.

https://soundcloud.com/mark_hayes/careless-nokit


Wow, Mark. Quite accommodating. YES!! I really like it without. Can still here the variations without the tree, and the transitions seems even more seamless. It also shows the creative way you made those transitions. Really enjoyed this. Thanks so much.
_________________________
Enjoy whatever happens!
marty

Babu Music on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLDrsXTXfShgnGalQZ0ElQw
Me on SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/marty-straub

My website: http://martystraub.com/

using Band in a Box, Reaper, Cakewalk, Ozone 10

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