PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production ADVANTAGES OF REALBAND OVER PG's COMPETITION.

(note RB = realand.)
before someone asks, i decided to post this topic here in this forum, as i feel the readership is probably higher.

why did i decide to post this ?..

1.because yesterday useing rb i was reminded once again the tremendous power of rb, ...and because
2.reading the long contemporary modern pop songs thread elsewhere on these pg forums, i was left wondering if
modern pop song creators who are also users new to pg
possibly have not explored rb's power.
also because rb is included free..i wonder if some people are doing a great disservice to themselves by not bothering to delve into all its features, or i suspect even ever booting rb up.
3. most of the talk on these forums is mostly centered
around biab. biab this n that etc. thus i wonder if certain new users ever bother with rb.
a shame imho if they never use rb.

let me say on these forums there are more than a few long term rb users like moi. who realise how wonderfull rb is.
one leading user is rharv. and i dont profess to have his
understanding in depth of the product....ive just developed my own methods over the years.

so, LETS GET AT IT...THE CASE FOR REALBAND.RB
1. it has features you wont find in any daws that are
competitors to pg. even very high priced daw software.
(as far as i'm aware currently. correct me if i'm wrong.)
why ?..heres why ?
2. i invite anyone to open up rb, and go to traks view
and, if youve never done it, right clik on a trak with the mouse. as a result youll be presented with a big list of actions. now some might say its inelegent.
but please persevere..go to generate and youll see all sorts of audio and midi trak generation options.
i know of no other companies daw/multitrack software that has these generation and accompaniement features.
lets look further.
3. not only can you generate ad nauseum audio and midi traks. but, in addition you could plug in your favorite
third party sample player (see the contemporary long thread) with its huge data base of gigs and gigs of modern sampled sounds and generate traks that way.

eg just a very simple idea i sometimes perform.
i generate a midi trak useing the rb (or imported biab)
chord sheet, then, useing a plug in i can audition and generate tracks useing the sounds in the plug in triggered via midi. if youve become more comfortable
useing your daw youve used for years before coming to pg
you have up to 48 traks in rb you can generate, then export into your fav daw for example.

...................................................
in conclusion, ive only had time to touch on some of rb's deep features.
other long time rb users can add their own if they wish.

THE KEY to enjoying rb is really understanding all its features/menus/various views AND PARTICULARLY RIGHT CLIK OVER A TRAK....to expose the long list of actions/options.
let me say, dont discount rb, it does a lot of things pg's competition dont. which probably explains why some mac users would liker a mac version.
and to those contemporary song creators who want more
modern sound pictures in pg's products...just use a plug in sample player with a big data base of modern sound samples.

best to everyone.
i like realband old muso

ps.
what a HOOT. after i posted this i noticed pg have posted a new version of rb.
jeez i must have esp/be psychic. lol.
for those sceptics amongst us, please note i'm just an end user like every other pg user with no links to pg.

I use RB and frankly can't see why I would need another DAW. But then I was bought up on BIAB and RB on floppies and learnt from day 1 to use the two together. I know lots of people now use the BIAB plugin but i'd be surprised if there's anything you can do with the plugin and a DAW you can't do with BIAB and RB working together.

With muso, i think there are lots of people using the plugin and a DAW who have never opened RB.

maybe they are coming from using a DAW and adding BIAB as an extra resource. RB is a fabulous program and quite intuitive and user friendly even if people think the GUI is flat and unexciting.

I've been a Reaper user for about 10 years and have limited experience with other DAWs. I have tried more than once to use Realband and found it to be sluggish in its operation and limited in its functionality. As far as I can see its only advantage over modern DAWs is the ability to load RealTracks and with the VST, well, even that advantage is fading.

I'm not posting this to be argumentative but instead to suggest to new users who might read your glowing review that they try a more modern DAW with the VST before settling for RB. There are many more powerful functions and modern features available in free and cheap DAWs such as Reaper.

JAOM,
I've had a quick go at RB but is does nothing for me.
It's ability to work seamlessly with BIAB is undeniable and those amongst us who use almost nothing but BIAB tracks, be they RealTracks, RealDrums, Superstyles etc., will be at home with it I'm sure.
I use Reaper, (I came to it via Cakewalk ProAudio which was pretty flash back in the early 2000s), which does cost money, ($60), but it's cheap, super powerful and does just about everything you've mentioned. It's no accident the PG have developed the BIABVST.

In the end it's what one is comfortable with/what doesn't disrupt the work/creativity flow.

Were PG to make more aspects of the BIAB/RB nexus proprietary they'd lose new business. Were they to discontinue RB they'd lose current custom. I think their approach is good...keep it updated and 64bit capable so that it can use the BIAB stuff and they can continue to sell the annual updates and extra Paks without alienating those who use other gear.

I think, in many ways, RB suits many folk in the Users Showcase as they are happy to make & bake in the same kitchen and that's a pretty strong demographic for PG but not one that's likely to grow.

I had a lot of crashes with the 32bit, and yes I think that is why the BBPlugin came about, but I haven't had those crashes in the now 64bit version.
It has been liked as you can see there is a website dedicated to it, though it could be updated and maybe it could include the BBPlugin.

https://www.realband.org/

JohnJohnJohn/rayc and other users.

when i started this thread i wondered if there would be people who questioned me re rb.
the shame of it is that users new to pg seeing your posts now might not bother opening up rb.
thus i feel missing some very nice features.
(i'll get to reaper, as i'm a long time avid user/early adopter (v0.99) after haveing addressed rb. )

so heres my REPLY re rb.
(firstly let me preface my reply by saying i have no idea of the internal codeing of rb.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. reasons for sluggishness might vary. i respectfully suggest that running rb on an optimised pc or one purpose built for recording studios that never sees the net , with high speed processors like ryzens/threadrippers rated on cpubenchmarket.net at 20,000 (and useing high speed nvme or m.2 ssd's) is going to be different probably than say a slow one drive laptop whose processor is rated on cpubenchmark.net at 3,000.
maybe rharv, who is the rb guru imho can comment on how his ryzen performs with rb.
user Bob upthread is obviously happy with rb.

2. if anyone had read my past rb wishlists i had suggested, to speed things up, to have an option
to turn off waveform draws when genning traks from RT's etc. i suspected on slower pc's genning lots of traks from RT's AT THE SAME TIME might be an issue.
overall i feel, if one is running an older pc thats at the same time running other non rb tasks in the background...this might make an impact.

EVEN GIVEN THE ABOVE, i still feel that rb has a lot of nice features, and very unique features that merit a new user at least trying it out. as i said unique features its daw competitors dont have.
even higher priced daws costing large money.
(its interesting that pipeline set up an rb site on the web nice stuff pipeline/respect.)

yes rb has some quirks, but what doesnt ?
youll see on various daw users forums users complain about lots of their daws various aspects..
which brings me nicely to talk about REAPER.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as far as i understand it, how reaps came about was the developer looked at the daw offerings at the time, and said i can do better. i was an early adoptor, with many others at v0.99. a very early release. many big studio buds ridiculed me and said "it'll never last" etc etc.
i feel vindicated.

full disclosure...us early adoptors like myself were makeing all sorts of suggestions way way back to the dev.
it was obvious that lots of people werent happy with their music software at that time.
the one i'm kicking myself i didnt suggest was the folder concept. brilliant.
anyhoo ive been a user ever since. its brilliant at what it does.

but it must be understood that people who say that other daws are more nimble/less sluggish than rb...the other daws dont have the auto accompany feature which i suspect is not trivial such programming.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in conclusion i avidly use both reaps and rb, depending on my need for a feature as well as biab.
if anyone has seen my crazy songs in the showcase youll see in the description that on all of them i used the biab/rb/reaps combo. whether the songs are any good, i'll let others be the judge of that.

but those 3 products have been used now on 90 original songs, and its been a fun time useing all 3 over many years. note i would post more songs, but ive decided to trickle them out every few months as i'm sensitive to the fact that lots of my fellow users post songs.

and let me say ive heard songs on the showcase from my fellow users way better than what i often hear in the top 100. i think the showcase is a lovely friendly collegial forum. and kudos to pg for hosting it.

best to all, over and out, and whatever your tools...just go make some songs. i'll continue to use the biab/rb/reaps combo.

om

RealBand is like any other DAW in that it has advantages and disadvantages when compared to other DAWs. Some people love it and it is their only DAW. Some people only use it occasionally while some people hate it and don't use it at all.

My workflow is BiaB to my DAW Studio One Pro. I rarely use RB but that doesn't make RB a terrible DAW. It just means my workflow maybe different from yours. I also don't use any other DAW.

I have always said 'if you have a PC and don't already have a favorite DAW then learn and use RB'.

The bottom line is that no one can listen to a song and tell what DAW or DAWs were used.

YMMV

Pipeline, is this still a valid website? My Norton antivirus is blocking access to it with the following warning:

This is a known dangerous webpage. It is highly recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

Can you advise.

Thanks Jeff

I'm using Firefox and MS Security (Defender) and I have no problem with that site. You may be getting a false positive with Norton.

FYI - I quit using Norton years ago because of problems like this.

I usually laugh out loud when I read these type of posts and I wonder if it is just me.

To me RealBand serves as very useful purpose as a TOOL. Let me explain where I think it fits.

1.) RealBand will generate, ugh, Real Tracks. Last time I checked, Reaper and Cakewalk and Studio One do not do that. (I like the BIAB VST but I don't use it that much. It is cleaner for me to work in RealBand until my tracks are ready.)

2.) Real Band will open a BIAB file. Last time I checked, aforementioned DAWs will not.

3.) My workflow (if I use Real tracks) is normally this: BIAB basic file, open it up in RB, add extra tracks if I want, export .wavs, then import into Cakewalk.

4.) I LOVE recording audio in RB because it is so easy to edit, copy, paste, manipulate. Way easier than Cakewalk, to me. It records great audio. I MIX in Cakewalk. I RECORD in RB.

5.) Audio Chord Wizard works great for me in RB. The other day I recorded a pretty complicated Flamenco original in RB.

Then I turned on ACW and let it rip. It was pretty accurate. If you are analyze something you RECORD there at tempo it seems to be super accurate. But FIXES on the fly were super easy as I listened to the track and corrected a bar here and there in just seconds.

THEN I chose a backing Flamenco style. It synced up perfectly. Song is ready to mix.

I challenge anyone to try this in Pro Tools.



So, I see everything as just another tool. Good old Real Band will generate tracks and midi charts for those tracks for you. What's not to love???

I stopped using Norton because it was like a virus itself taking over the computer.
The site has some flash videos that maybe sending Norton paranoid and having panic attacks .

It's kept active as there are a lot of UserTracks there, maybe I could just strip it down and have just the UserTracks there ? what do you guys think ??

JaOM,
Okay, if your intention was to cobble together a bunch or reasons to keep & promote REALBAND this wasn't clear in the title of OP of the thread.

David Snyder
interesting positive post.
i use rb very similar to yourself.
what processor are you useing with rb david ?

Rayc.
re "promote".
sigh, well no that wasnt my intention.

as there are so many threads centered on biab i felt it might be nice to have a discussion about rb, and what one can do with it. i was interested in all the ways people use rb.

ray, rb might not be for you. but obviously some of us like it, as you can see. as mario correctly pointed out each daw has its plusses and minuses.
in rb's case , its not just the accompany/gen features in the product, but also, there are lots of other features too.
i'm curious to see what the 2022 rb version brings.


what i find interesting ray , is that the big name daws
have had many many years to include sophisticated auto accompany features, but i dont see them doing it.
and i wonder why ? as musicians obviously like the features.

best to you both.
om

JAoM,
I understand your sigh BUT I reread the thread and, well, your intentions are less than consistently easy to grasp by the end. I won't quote you but the general line is "Look How Good RB IS?" with a response to comments of "This thread could put off a new RB user". How else am I to interpret these things?

You put your position, a good, valid, polymath, renaissance man one too. & I gave my reasons for being limitedly bicultural and the reasons I think PG persists with RB.

Big Name auto-accompaniment - well, the big ones are trying to sell themselves as the choice of SERIOUS recorders, and adopting MIDI plus VSTi is where they've taken it as far as replacing musicians while Garageband and a plethora of iPhone software instances have gobbled up the quick n easy song building/backing making world...hell, even BIAB went with a PEDAL for a bit. Different demographics/different market strategy, different cork sniffing.

Rayc.
jeez, i dont want to get into a brouhaha.
and i DO appreciate all your efforts in the user showcase.
as i said these forums are loaded with biab discussions.
cant we for once just discuss rb ? and how folks use it ?
maybe new pg users might find it of interest.

maybe its us users who started out on powertraks years ago before rb that take to rb. like rharv and myself. dunno.

i only wish you the best.
om

I think this may be the very last post I ever do on this topic, or others related to it.

I am left simply scratching my head because I truly do not understand the questions of the debate. And there are so many of them. Over and over.

It is all in front of your face.

This is what RealBand does that other DAWS do NOT do. All in ONE PLACE. Until you are ready to export. (And MIX the tracks in another DAW if that is what you want to do. Unless, of course, you want to play the cello yourself.)

YOU CAN ADD .WAV FALL PARTS BY BAR AND COMPOSE INSTANTLY, ALMOST IN REAL TIME, TRACK BY TRACK. ALL LAID OUT FOR YOU TO SEE.

And, IT GIVES YOU THE MIDI IN CASE YOU WANT TO RUN THEM THROUGH A VST.

Any composer I know, or songwriter, would take ONE look at this and go "Holy *()*)(*)*()."

You either see it or you don't.

HOWEVER, I do think PG Music should fix some little annoying things that have been mentioned for years, so there would be no need to leave the RB DAW unless you wanted to. Simple things, like saving VST settings reliably. It can't be that hard. But for track generation it is a goldmine so I am not complaining. That will be my view til Jesus comes back.

Peace out.

The solution to sluggish performance is NOT "get a faster computer" when comparable DAWs do NOT suffer from the same sluggishness.

Another shame would be if new users settled for RB as a DAW without trying more modern, feature-rich software. Really, my only suggestion is don't settle for the bundled free program that is not even offered for sale separately. Try out some DAWs and see which one works best for you.

ADVANTAGES OF REALBAND OVER PG's COMPETITION....

Except for working with proprietary real tracks - none that I can see.
VST had taken a good step forward in the past 2 years, making RB near obsolete.

For a new user, I would suggest not even bother with it, and start learning BIAB and Plugin. Maybe I am wrong, but I am pretty sure most of new users will not use RB. To be on par with even free Cakewalk, RB needs thousands of hours in programming and testing.

Did I try it, yes, about half a dozen times or so. If it was me, I would stop development...as of today and just keep it "alive" for those who are used to it and focus on fixing and consolidating items in BIAB, VST and of course producing amazing RTs. Why? because PGmusic is a smaller company and developer resources are limited.

I recognize that RB is a tool, and I deeply respect Peter G. for walking extra mile keeping long backers happy, but that is about the only positive things I can say about RB, besides that it is free... but so is Cakewalk.

P.S. Muso, having a fast PC will not solve issues with RB.

Misha,

I guess I am not gone after all.

Ok--explain to me how you QUICKLY use the BIAB VST to add Real tracks BY MEASURE, stacked in a visual row like I have posted above, which is an Arrangement, if say you want an Arrangement that has 30 additional parts, of oh let's say, only four or five bars. I have heard some of your great stuff and I know you are arranging, not ripping off demos, so I can't believe you are saying this. You of all people!

Go ahead, I'm waiting....



OK, I see you are back. How was that? Fun??

So, what makes RealBand "obselete" now?

Did you just want to generate 5 tracks all of the same length and call it a day man?

PG. DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS NONSENSE AND DO NOT MAKE REALBAND OBSELETE.

Thanks.

Whew!!This is driving me NUTS y'all.

Ha! Yeah sure.

You are 100% correct!


Remember, it is NOT free! You must buy at least the basic version of BIAB to get it. They don't sell it separately because, as a DAW without RealTracks, it could never compete with modern DAWs. And to be fair, it should not be expected to either! PGM, with limited resources, created it as a free add-on for BIAB. And for that purpose it is fine.

But every time someone tries to claim it is as feature-rich, functional and modern as other DAWs it requires that someone call that out as the gross exaggeration that it is. Sorry, not sorry!






[/quote]

I'm kind of with Misha on this one...... except I don't even use the plugin, just BIAB.

I get all the tracks exactly how I want them and export all MIDI/AUDIO to .MID and .WAV files and import into Pro Tools.

The export doesn't take any time and I really enjoy PT as my DAW.

I think it's mostly a matter of DAW comfort.

But Steve,

In this and related posts, people keep circling around and around and making uninformed statements that are simply not true and they are not addressing the real issue, which I have pointed out over and over.

If you are ARRANGING and you WANT MORE THAN FIVE TRACKS, then RealBand is a wonderful tool to select from thousands of instruments that you can place and stack in a visually pleasing environment with bars of only a few measures or so which is what an arrangement often IS. And you can do it and edit it FAST.

NOTHING and I mean NOTHING even comes close for using it for that purpose.

If someone WANTS to use it that way and is ARRANGING why does anyone else care??? Does no one realize what the capabilities are? How could you NOT know??? Is anyone actually USING this product? I have my doubts, sometimes, seriously.

I know there are people who just want to create some Christmas jingle midis in four tracks, but if you want numerous parts and RealBand works great for that, why trash it?

I would love to see a show of hands of people who have acquired a version of Band in a Box in the last 10 years and have mixed a song using Real Tracks in the last five.

That would answer a lot of my questions.

All.
wow what did i start...lol.
lets keep it friendly and collegial eh ?
i'm with david, i dont want pg to drop rb.

BTW there is a paid version of rb thats included free with biab. its powertraks that i started with many moons ago, and which i still consider one heck of a deal for the features it offers at such a low price. a steal imho.
it just dont have all the accompany features.
.........................................................

David.
i agree with you. rb is a goldmine for genning not just traks but also song ideas.
in this and some following posts i'll delve into little ideas/triks in rb's useage.
(other users can add their own ideas.)

for example lets start off with the fact you dont necessarily need a chord sheet.
you might want to jam up some guitar ideas for example.
but it would be nice to have some nice drums wouldnt it ? to jam with ?
the following took me all of 4 minutes today. just experimenting.

1. i genned a funky real drum trak on one trak from lots of pg rd's available.
then
2. genned a midi trak , and then inserted one of computer music mags vsti drum sample/beat box like drum plug ins. the samples in the plug in reinforcing the funky RD trak to create added synergy.
so now i have 2 traks of drums.

then i was paging thru lots of presets in the cm mags drum plug in to see what i liked best.
any sample player plug in could be used of course. from simple to exotic. eg some of those plug in sample players
mentioned in the long contemporary thread with their data base of modern sounds.

anyhoo i got a funky groove going in 4 mins i could jam to. no chord sheet.
i sometimes do this as a way of nudging song ideas into my brain etc.
ive got more than a few song ideas this way.
i'll add more ideas of things to try in rb as my time allows. overall i would urge people, if not already done so to delve deeply into rb. theres lots of neat stuff/triks.

best
oldmuso.

I have been through all this years n years ago.
It is good there is a choice Biab Realband BiabVST
I have said if RealBand was the only thing there is I would be able to use it.
The thing with RealBand you've never had this development
RealBand® 2021 - 59 of Your Problems Solved! the main focus has always been Biab.

David,
You just drag audio to you DAW from VST... and it will line up very nicely. Use freehand or snap grid to do whatever you want with it. And it will "feel" and "look" much better than RB. String & anchors for volume / fx faders and gazillion of other DAW specific features that just work much, much better and more intuitively especially with VST loaded 30+ track projects.

I think the issue is, you do not realize how fast DAWS evolving compared to RB. If PGmusic had a small army of coders, like Big Boys, I would scream hard to bring it up to current standards. But crew is small and it seems not easy keeping checks on stuff that badly needs to be done. There are plenty of DAW alternatives, but none to BIAB and VST, I rather see team to give more love to the later two.

PS. I am not saying "TAKE RB AWAY FROM DAVID!". There is nothing wrong with keeping RB "alive" for those who need it, I just do not see the point of comparing "advantages" to "competitors" and using resources to aggressively develop it.

quote:
"I would love to see a show of hands of people who have acquired a version of Band in a Box in the last 10 years"

That is one strange statement... 10 years is a lot of years when it comes to software. For example, Cakewalk (after Bandlab bought it) put more effort in last 2 years, than it was done through most of time of Gibson ownership.

Since you like to type in Caps, I will echo your style.

DAVID HAVE YOU HEARD OF UTILITY TRACKS IN BIAB? WHILE THEY ARE NOT PERFECT AT ALL AT THIS STAGE, THEY GIVE FOLKS ADDITIONAL SIXTEEN(!) TRACKS FOR RT'S ON THE TOP OF LEGACY TRACKS. TAKING INTO ACCOUNT OF WHAT OFFICIAL PG TEAMSTER SAID, THEY WILL GAIN MORE RT FUNCTIONS, AND I SINCERELY HOPE THAT SANTA WILL BRING AT LEAST SOME OF THAT GOODNESS TOWARDS THE END OF THIS YEAR

David, I have no issues whatsoever with people who use and produce great music with RB. Kudos to them!

I don't express my opinions on the tool itself very often because I had my 50-100 hours with it and don't like it, very frustrating. Compared to other DAWs it seems like a toy. During the times I have used it, it crashes, usually within 60 minutes of having it open. I have a powerful PC and no issues with the standard audio interfaces I've used in other DAWs. Most of the basic functions it has are not as easy to learn as other DAWs either. I was constantly going back to documentation for the easiest of tasks. For me, the old school BIAB is much better at the arranging part. So what if it's 5 tracks? I can still generate as many as I need in BIAB, it sometimes just takes more than one export to PT to do that, no biggie for me. It's just my preference not to use RB. I would rather use a tool that is easier to use for me.

Biab now has Utility tracks because users liked staying in Biab because it is quick to change and regenerate, in RealBand and the BiabVST this is more time consuming, with RealBand you have bbw2 running in the background to generate up tracks to RealBand's temp folder, this is the same as BiabVST has bbw4 running in the background working the same way with your DAW.

That is why I'm pressing hard for Instant Generate and Play Direct in the BiabVST,
I don't think users understand what this is all about and what it will mean ! maybe down the track when they are using it and it's common place "oh yes now I see what pipeline was going on about".
If this was done in RealBand in the past with non destructive audio editing, Realband would of been a whole new ball game by now.
As I said what you guys are all talking about now I have been through on both sides of for years n years.

Pipeline...respect.
please could you clarify one thing up thread for me.

are you saying a user cant do those 59 items currently
in rb that you mentioned up thread ?

all.
maybe its psychological but i find useing the plug in vst in bb i feel hemmed in sometimes. also sometimes i want to do something and the plug in wont let me do it.
for example i like the standalone plug in but it dont have vols and pans.

whereas when i move to rb i dont feel hemmed in and i can do such things as compiling a final trak from a number of
genned takes of an rt . cos ive got 48 traks to experiment in rb and try various arrangement ideas.
i like the flexibility of the large no of traks.

and, even wackier i could mix the 48 down to stereo and reimport into rb and do/gen a ton of further traks.
for example if i wanted to build a huge orchestra all built by genned midi traks plus useing orchestra plug ins. i guess i like the flexibility .

best
om

Through the years I've made various attempts to use RB.

I've always found it sluggish and prone to crashing. That makes it a non-starter for me.

If it works for you - more power to you!

Well, guys, I guess I am the odd man out.

I LOVE RealBand! I wish they would fix the VST save issue, which is highly annoying, but other than that I love it. I mix in Cakewalk with about 897 VSTs last time I counted but I record in RB, as I said. To each his own it looks like.

I can see I am all alone though (except for Muso) so I will let this go!!!!

This is destructive editing and non destructive editing:

Full Screen

Well, JAOM,
You may see that I'm not on my Pat Malone in my interpretation of your intention.
There's no brouhaha and, for my part, no interest in advancing the matter into one.

The title of the thread is "ADVANTAGES OF REALBAND OVER PG's COMPETITION."

Reread and reflect on your posts and responses - I've done so with mine. No gripe or grievance - I offered a response to your O.P. based on the thread title and, later, to your thoughts on mine. You like it, I don't. You want more and I'm can see how & why PG continue with it. No opposition, I've barely a position.

David's been sparked into a justification of his workflow and a challenge to others that is, honestly, pointless in terms of their workflow and the high likelihood no one in the thread wants to spend the time doing so.
Good on you for using RB to do what you do David. I sincerely suggest you make a video, not unlike Floyd's Birth of a Song, showing the Snyder method and its advantages for those interested/new/keen on seeing details of your process based on their listening. You've plenty of admirers so I'd venture that it'd be worthwhile.

From my perspective it's a solid piece of legacy software that isn't as buggy as the main program, (largely becasue it's not perpetually being updated without being fully upgraded). Let's face it, if PG Music REALLY thought there was value in ramping up interest in RB they'd have done it/be doing it.

Perhaps a super thread with lots of "stickies" - "RealBand for Newbies" or "Taking BIAB to the Next Level with Ultra Compatible RB".

Some folk like RD and other don't.
Some folk have spent time with RB and like it or don't while others haven't found it sufficiently interesting to delve deeper into to find out.

Hey, I actually LIKE, & regularly drink, instant coffee.

Rayc.
thanks for your comments mate.

Pipeline.
thanks for the reply/clarifications. thats a very neat trick for expanding trak count by useing bb as a plug in. i hope some new users see that idea. great idea.
re destructive/non. if i'm gonna do a hard change on a trak, what i do sometimes if a critical trak is save a back up before i changed it. i save to *.seq often also anyways.
i'm back up crazy. lol. nice graphics btw.

All.
lets consider another way of working //more ideas.
my objective in this thread is to show that with rb actually one can do some really neat things.
ie focusing on the positive aspects of rb.
(but my time is limited as i'm creating songs too. so i apologise if i dont get back to it to post more ideas//triks for a day or so sometimes.
perhaps , if some would be good enough... instead of posting in general terms that you dont like rb , start your own thread on neat things you do with your gear.)

the first objective imho when i'm starting a song is getting the arrange right.
but i suspect some people go all gung ho on genning realtraks right off the bat. its just human nature.
or go to n from biab //importing bb chord sheet into rb // changeing the chord sheet and genning audio rt's.

so those waveform draws get a tad tedious after a bit while one is still sorting out chord arrangements etc.
particularly if genning a number of rt's at a time as i said earlier.

so heres another suggestion. stay all midi in rb till the chord arrange is down and finalised.
and your certain its a keeper. try starting off the chord sheet in rb like i did other day.
the other day i found i worked very fast this way in rb.
for me the arrange and trying different chord shapes etc etc takes a time anyways.

i'm typically playing back the rb chord sheet , jotting down more lyric ideas , and singing along with it, and altering chords and lyrics etc, and trying to find progressions that i like //progression hooks etc.
(you know those hooky chord structures we search for to make a song interesting. where we go "yeah".)

the advantage is, on my pc anyway , i right clik over a blank trak in rb and the midi trak gen is instantaneous
compared to a audio gen from a real trak that takes a few secs/waveform draw.

i REALLY LIKE the right clik over trak in rb for genning traks, cos i can work fast trying different chord arrangements etc etc. like tother day.

in summary i start a song chord sheet sometimes in rb flushing out and finalising the chord arrange, all the time right cliking over traks to gen midi traks. i cant emphasise enough how much i like the right clik over
a trak to gen. it lets me work very fast compared to other approaches. and ive got SO MANY TRAKS i dont feel hemmed in like when i'm useing the vst plug in version. but maybe i'm silly...lol.
more next time.
best
om

Not at all David. Listen to this example of an original production mostly 'arranged' with RealBand from a few ago.
Like you, this BIAB artist (Joesarahh) loves RB and understands the advantages it has over its competition...

The Young British Soldier Forum Post

Charlie.
kudos for linking to that.
only 4 words for it. (i was born in uk)
SUPERB PRODUCTION AND VOCS.
lovely.
best
om

Great example, Charlie.

This is an ARRANGEMENT. Sorry for all caps, but that is what Real Band does. It helps you instantly and visually ARRANGE.

Loved how he did this. Thanks for sharing.

I wish more of the forum posts, threads and discussions talked about and shared COMPOSITIONAL secrets and tips from active users of all the products, RealBand, BIAB, VST, whatever.

As a metaphor, I have a LOT of instruments but I don't play the same one every time. That would be stupid. RealBand is one such instrument.

To me, an overwhelming number of posts go on like, "I have 21 Tigabytes of RAM now in Windows 15, running a super-quad, water-cooled, AMD flexchip with the latest installation of Imitation Guitar Box 12."

Cool.

And stuff.

But a typical great song is usually a stack of very carefully chosen tracks, meticulously arranged bar by bar.

Any tips on how to do that better??????

Hello, hello?? Anybody home???

David, a compositional tips is a great idea for a new forum. Post it in the wishlist forum and you will get a +1 from me.

PS - Discussing what is the best DAW is like discussing what is the best car. Everyone has their own opinion. Either you agree with them or you do not. IMHO the best DAW is the one you use regardless of the brand name. YMMV

Dude,

I know this sounds CRAZY, but when I got my first starter copy of Band in a Box in 2014 (and boy was I overwhelmed with those 26 real tracks) I thought that COMPOSITION was the name of the game.

I did not yet realize (in my ignorance) that is was all about the 21 Tigabytes of RAM in Windows 15, running a super-quad, water-cooled, AMD flexchip with the latest installation of Imitation Guitar Box 12.

Are you sayin' that it still IS about writing a song people would actually want to listen to?

Just give it to me straight man.

I can handle the truth.

Me <----- ten foot pole -----> this thread

/felt like I had to chime in
// I couldn't care less if you use it or not in your workflow, I just try to help those who do

Mario I started a new thread....

In my time working here, the only times I've ever heard complaints of sluggishness in RealBand were the result of the hardware. Computers with Celeron or Intel Atom CPU's and only 1gb of ram technically meet the minimum requirements for BIAB and RealBand, however they're not really up to the task, especially once you start adding plugins to the mix.

That said, RealBand works great on my low end 2012 desktop - it has a CPU rating of 4760. I've also had success using it on an "ultra-thin" laptop that I got for free out of a junk bin, which had a super low powered CPU rated at a mere 1795 (this is a sub-ghz chip!), and for a handful of tracks and lightweight plugins it was fine - not that I'd recommend that particular CPU for people who want to do music production.

On these older slower systems, other DAWs aren't nearly as quick for me, with the possible exception of Reaper considering it's so lightweight - but it still doesn't generate Realtracks and I personally find the workflow for arranging to be slower, which is nothing to do with how quickly the software moves and everything to do with how quickly I move.



Don't worry, we like RealBand.



Exactly! RealBand is not the only DAW I use (I probably use more of them than most people due to my work here), but what it does is unique, so it remains part of my toolkit. Whatever floats your goat though - if you prefer to use Studio One, or Pro Tools, or Logic, or whatever, we're not forcing you to change - that's exactly why we created the DAW plugin, so that you can add to your existing workflow rather than trying to replace your workflow.



So I guess you don't want to hear about my new 8-core 16-thread 5ghz i9 build with 64gb of ram eh?

Simon,

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, see my PM...

I love these posts! I always get some new ideas.
I used Real Band at first. but could not get 3rd party plug ins to work and it would randomly crash. I think it might be a 32 bit thing the the file size gets huuuuuge.
Then heard about Reaper. It had better (for me any way) instructional videos. The series "how to record your Band" got me going.

So right now I make tracks in BB then export.
When I need some more instruments I open BB again and then export more tracks.

I have the BB vst loaded in Reaper but I only use it their for the track settings and following the chords when I play along.
I don't like the way the BB vst needs to generate a set of tracks to your temp folder that you have to go and clean out.

But... this is a bit of a slow way to arrange.

So...I think I'll try testing out

Simon.
thanks for your hardware comment, and the fact rb will carry on as a product.
Marty.
i use vsti plug ins in both reaps and rb.
i would suggest you contact pg support , and detail the plug ins your trying to use in rb plus your computer configuration. i would be surprised if they couldnt help you.
best to you marty.
---------------------------------------------------------

SUBJECT : DRUM FILL GENNING.
this next trik/idea is for people new to rb.
one of the neat things i like about rb is DRUM FILL GENERATION. its so neat to do in rb.

all included FREE ! and cos there is so much trak flexibility rb has certain advantages over other methods with its large no of 48 traks.
i mean you could go bat crazy with drum traks and generating fills for same out your ying yangs.
and drum trak comping from different traks etc.

IN SUMMARY FLEXIBILITY IN CREATING DRUM TRAKS/FILLS.
in the past in big studios i would have had to hire a session drum player. and they were very very good.
but not a lot of us can afford that. neither can i (and many others ) afford to spend large on big drum sample libraries and vsti plug ins. i have other family responsibilities.

meanwhile pg is kind enough to provide us with a nice big real drums library.
i'll now summarise genning drum fills. the steps.
1. open up chord view and experiment with various combos of k.d.
(k = song key ) you could fill every bar with k.d eg k.d,k.d etc etc, the whole chord sheet....
or just here and there. k.d indicates to play only drums.
2. then experiment with different combos on the chord sheet of shots and pushes in combination with different part marker breaks etc etc. you have to generate of course the fills like you do a regular drum trak from the huge pg real drum library.
(read the manual for more detailed info.)
3. this is really important..IF YOU WANT OODLES OF FILLS INSTEAD OF THE OCCASIONAL FILL, PUT A PART MARKER AT BEGIN OF EVERY BAR eg green or blue. i was doing this this morning to gen a funky urban more modern drum trak
with fills. in fact further , you could build a whole library of drum fills. midi and/or audio if you wished.
4. you could gen lots of drum and fill traks on different traks and then comp the ones you like for a final great drum trak if you wish.
you could mix various perc and regular rd styles together. maybe mix latin with rock for example.
and IF THAT ISNT ENOUGH , remember those old drum machine hardware sounds from years back ?

tother day i used a free plug in of such from the computer music mag suite of plug ins called cm 505 drum
vsti plug in. clacks and chirps and kiks n old skool sounds etc etc...lol, and generated a trak of that.
then i experimented with "dune" a fab synth with oodles of sounds included free in the computer music mag collection of 80 plug ins.
(note pipeline i think the on line cm mag only costs 5 buks ? once a year i pay 20 buks for the paper mag. cheap considering what i get .)

what i mean to say is useing rb it opens up a huge vista of possibilities/flexibility. for drum comping includeing useing plug ins AND..
4. there are different views in rb for moving around all the genned fills etc. both audio and midi.

for example say you like a fill at bar 5 , but not bar 43. no problem. good old copy and paste.
space limits me. but i really dig the flexibility rb gives me in comping drum traks n fills.
(i would urge the new user to read the manual and go through all the different rb "views" and "windows".
they all are very usefull in moving bits of audio and midi around till you get what you like.).

as you can see, and as david noted correctly , rb is just great for song arrangeing and composition, and testing out lots of different arrangements. let me finish by saying , lets say, for example your really happy with a song arrange, but you want to experiment further. no problem , save as eg arrangeone.seq. while working on arrangetwo.seq.
and experiment away in arrangetwo.seq
---------------------------------------------------------

i'm done for now /hth/ymmv/till next time and happiness to all...vivre le rb.lol.
om
ps other day i slowed down a drum trak , and i was able to isolate a sample of a rd single hit i really liked.
pps. forgot to mention. in rb you could do a minute of a drum solo if you wanted like a live drummer might
at a live show if you arrange it right.

I have a pair of TR505s. Mid 80s poor cousin to the 808.
Fabulous for its time (though some say otherwise) though the tempo would drift ever so slightly.

Our old TR-626 still works, but the GM sound set pretty much covers the 808 era sounds

/I just saw what the 626's are selling for! Wow

I'm with you on 1,2,3.

4 & 5... not so much.

I've used Sonar so long that it's second nature to record anything in it. Regarding ACW..... it's amazing what that thing does. However, it's not foolproof. Ive had a few projects that were easier to simply type in the chords myself.

For making my backing tracks on the songs I write and having them sound professional and not midi/mechanical, nothing beats using RB to generate those tracks. NOTHING.

A lot of limitations in RealBand can be remedied with a few add-ons.

KV Element allows chaining midi vsti, using Vst3, plugins that won't work in RealBand normally, advanced routing, allows all vst windows to be opened at the same time...


12 Channel Mixer


reastream.dll VST from https://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/ will give you midi&audio sends/receives and allows track FX changes,
see video: RB-FX-Sends.mp4 a fader can be added in front of the FX chain to give master volume.
*Note to use a track as a receive put an empty clip on the track or a small 1 bar empty audio clip at the end of the track this will activate the FX.
Fader VSTs
https://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.html
https://www.gvst.co.uk/gfader.htm?pageview=selectos

It's all about the habits of our work when we create and RealBand is an integral part of my work, although I also use DAW (Studio One) and other music applications (eg RX9 from iZotope), I work with Realtrack with the modem "Also Generate RealChart" and also with Midi SuperTrack and I also use MultiRiff, so far I haven't worked only with the Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin, because I'm used to creating tracks in RealBand and my habit is connected and strongly inspired. However, a user who uses his DAW and uses the Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin can also have an inspirational connection. However, it doesn't have one thing (at least in the BIAB application) I didn't find it. And this is the function "Split midi drums ...", because I like to mix drums separately and if I use, for example, Contact with instruments "DSK MUSIC HQ Instruments" it will make my work easier. In RealBand, I set in Preferences that I don't want RealDrums for this case, that I want Midi. There are a lot of other tasks where I don't even realize how important RealBand is to me. I have had a band-in-a-box since 2005 and with the arrival of RealBand, which came later, I started to work better.

Well said Gause
There are lots of gems in RB that make it the logical next step when going from BiaB to any DAW (ne it RB, Reaper, Sonar or whatever).

nice to hear other people like rb as i do.
i was beginning to doubt my sanity. lmao.
briefly i typically do a song as follows.
1. finish chord layout/sheet.
2. go through zillions of styles noting down the rt
id's etc i like for the song. i normally end up with
30 to 50 i like.
3. right cliking over traks in rb //genning traks based on my shortlist of rt's//midi supertraks//other midis.
4. if i want fx on a trak i plug in a dx pg for roughing
things out without hard printing....the old trik is to
dupe a trak, so one trak is dry and second has the fx on.

and that normally gets me started on a song.
and building the sound picture i'm always hunting for.
i like bars view a lot for manipulating midi n audio bits.

om

Now that it's 64bit there are many things that can be done to modern it up, BUT I don't know how enthusiastic they are to improve it, or is it just what it is and that's it, take it or leave it ? Jeff could be over in Hawaii these days just taking it easy or helping with Biab ?? Did the RealDrumsCharts get put in yet ?

When you save it seems to have to write all the wav files again, if it just imported the wav files into an associated folder to the project file and used non destructive editing.
This will make moving, cutting, copying, fading, crossfading, volume etc.. a breeze.

They had destructive editing from back in the 90's when you had to process the wav offline because there was not enough processing power to process in realtime.

When I vertical scroll the tracks there is a delay and it keeps scrolling after you have stopped the mouse wheel, should be nice smooth and responsive. As I scroll this webpage it's smooth and responsive.

So do you think it's something that's worth improving or just make do with it as it is ???

Maybe have the windows floatable outside of the main window like you can with Biab rather than staying in the confines of the main RB window:

Like this:

And with non destructive editing, if you copy or cut a section it won't create a new wav file to build the size of the SEQ up, it will just reference the original wav file start and end points in the wav, this way the section I cut can be resized out to the same size if need be by dragging the ends. If I copy the track 100 times the SEQ file folder will still be the same size there won't be any extra files created.

If you want new users to come to RB then I think this is a good idea to modernize it. These are things that put me off using it rather than another DAW.
The Instant Gen/Play that I talk about in the BiabVST Plugin can also be done in RealBand especially !!
RealBand will tell bbw2 hey I need these chords for this RT,
it will randomly choose the chord sections from the RT files,
but rather than then generating those sections to RAM then rendering them to more wavs it just tells RB what section to playback direct from the source RT files. The RT files don't need to be copied to the SEQ folder as they are a permanent location reference.

Sure, it would need a re-write to compete with modern DAWs, but what needs to be done to RB that will make you use it more ???

With the vertical track scrolling I move the mouse wheel up/down a few times then go and get a cup of coffee when I come back it's still going up and down by it's self with the cpu usage on 95%.
Do you need to have all 48 tracks in there when you don't use them ?
maybe if you have an Add Track, Delete Track so you don't need it to scroll so many tracks and all the track bmp images, maybe do away with the bmp track images ?
Be able to drag a track up/down to change it's position.

I have the same issue with the scroll and have mentioned it to Jeff.
I think the Save takes longer mainly because RB also makes a backup of the previous version, and THEN writes the new SEQ file, which a lot of DAWs don't do (at least in the way RB does).
So that may explain the longer save time anyway.
I do like a lot of the suggestions you've made above Pipeline, FWIW

I think RealBand still has a place in my heart, I think Jeff may be a bit worn out from it and not young and enthusiastic anymore like I got from it
Yes you are right there about the backups that would be it.
That's the thing as it's using destructive editing it needs to make hard copies that can build up to a huge amount of hard drive space.
Where as non destructive editing uses and keeps the original files intact.
This is Reaper's file size as it's all reference data:

Pipeline.
what irks me frankly is, i put a lot of thought into
posting rb wishes, without even one being implemented.
i mean that wonderfull enhanced bars view graphic you did for me being one example. further it amazes me also that my fellow rb users dont support the need for it.

for readers not up on what i'm talking about see my thread aimed at jeff 'please sir can i have more bars view'. i feel like oliver in the film of the same name.

what further irks me is , realband could be really fab with some small targeted features.
maybe its that lots of pg users dont care cos they have used another daw for ages, and dont want to learn a new one like rb. dunno.
sigh..at least some mac users realise rb's value as a daw. otherwise wouldnt be asking for a mac version.



best
om

Same issue here. In 2021, when software performs this poorly, I simply delete it without further consideration (and I suspect most new users have the same reaction.)

" i feel like oliver in the film of the same name."
LOL that's what I used to say !

RB wasn't popular like Biab because Biab generated the tracks quickly and RB is slow like the BiabVST as it uses the same method.
IF..,IF it had the Instant Gen/Play how I described above it would be a whole new ball game and more popular no waiting and loosing that moment of creativity through frustration ! and I think also if the tracks window was rehashed to work smoothly without all the bmp's with unused tracks and use non destructive editing, it would have to be a game changer !! but as I said Jeff could very well be laying on that warm beach in Hawaii right now and who could blame him.

It's the famous Crapple O.S. F.O.M.O.,is all.

Does the color theme match ?
Full Screen

These are the destructive FX that will change the audio for good, these can be all applied as non destructive realtime FX, this way you can modify them at any time you like and it will leave the original wav file intact, they are applied during playback and render. No wav's files need to be written as back up, just the project file. Fade In Fade Out Gain Pitch Shift that can all be done directly on the audio item. When it's playing back the RT/RD files direct from source it will use dllelastiquePro.dll this will pitch shift or tempo stretch any of the source files in realtime playback.
So it's not creating any new wav files, you down mix your song direct to stereo wav mp3 etc..
Only if you drag render export any track it will do the same and render all the realtrack section of the source files together into a new wav.

This shows the RealTrack source file that's being played,
it shows the position and length on the track,
It shows the start position of the chord in the source RealTrack file,
it shows any playback rate or pitch adjustment.

Here's the realtime elastique pitch and stretch

Here's a demo of how the Play Direct works.
The Chords Playlist.m3u is in the mp3 folder, you can drag it into Notepad to read.
The media player plays the section back the same way RB will just by reading the text playlist but will play those section's from the time position start within the RT files. Giving you Instant Gen/Play in RealBand.
remove .mp4 CoolPlayer+Portable.zip.mp4

You can drag the items in the playlist up/down to rearrange.


I tried taking some of the track bmp images out but there are so many of them.
If you can get rid of all the bpm's as they look like ones from the DOS days, it may work soother.

Pipeline.
1. in both reaps and rb i use vst and vsti plug ins non destruct. plus i'll use the pg dx plugs and reaps js etc
(pity i cant use js in other daws. only reaplugs.)
plus the computer music mag collection i have.
80 free fx plus instrument plug ins.
i got enough plug ins. and i believe useing plugs sparsely. not useing 50 plugs in a song.
i might export some genned rt's eg solos from rb into my fav trick...a reaps folder on seperate traks within the reaps folder. then on the top folder trak maybe a plug in. i truly believe if you feel you cant do a great song
with pg's dx plugs plus reaps reaplugs collection
and js collection, ....you should re-evaluate your song approach. i feel many people go too hog wild on plug ins.
2. just yesterday i was useing both rb and reaps to do a new song. sometimes i go from reaps into rb.
eg rough out a song to a clik in reaps. do a stereo mix i import into rb...then useing the bb or rb chord sheet as a base, start gernning midi and audio traks.
i dont look at it as rb vs reaps, but useing the featurers i like in each.

what i find HIGHLY AMUSEING is folks quoting reaps at me
lol...possibly not realising i was one of an early tranche of reaps users at v0.99 ....feeding back all sorts of feature ideas ealy on, that reaps users enjoy today.
in summary there are things i love bout reaps, but there are also things i love bout rb TOO.

ps pipeline, that sandboxie idea is kinda cute...
as well as running powertraks with rb for a second instance. if i get time i'll pull up my old ptraks and see if it runs at same time as rb. which brings up an interesting point...running rb as a plug in , in ptraks...lol.

in conclusion pipe i dont think its reaps vs rb, but availing oneself of the features of each.
to quote a big old studio bloke who taught me a lot...
'i use all available tools in a studio at my disposal,...
to do the best for the song'.

hey pipe , lol...heres a challenge ! find a way for me to use reaps built in js plugs in rb.

greatest respect.
i use minimal plugs old muso

If they implemented the above suggestion in RB I would be using it over Reaper, as it's all doable and needs updating from 90's thinking now that it's 64bit, don't you think ?
You would then not get users coming here with negative feedback.
We can learn from Reaper that RB CAN be improved, it's all entirety possible !
No one has promoted RealBand over the years more than me, It is very difficult to get features and improvements implemented (It's that very issue that drove me to Reaper and ReaTrak scripting, and the same reason the BiabVST come about) BECAUSE Biab generates RealTracks quicker so it's more popular and the energy don't go into RealBand, BUT having the Instant Gen/Play and non destructive editing.......


ReaPlugs reajs.dll

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=659977