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Hi,
I suppose there is no one signal chain that works for everything.
In general, I have been using a low-cut filter, slow-acting low ratio compressor, and enough room plus plate with slap delay reverb to keep the vocalist happy.
After that mixing is a whole other issue I don't fully understand.
Subtractive EQ first then additive EQ
Trying to balance the mid-range frequencies between instruments and vocals.
de-essers
The use of parallel compression.
All of this complexity is what causes me to want to head to the nearest professional studio...lol
Comments?
Billy
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New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Mine will probably be the oddest process/path offered. It's simple, no muss, no fuss. We first set up Audacity to record vocal input 1. AT 2035 condenser mic to phantom power "in". 2. Phantom power "out" to guitar amp (Peavey Nashville 112) 1/4 inch input. 3. Set tone & reverb on amp as appropriate for the song, genre, and vocalist. 4. Guitar amp "Headphone Out" to Computer "Mic In" That's it for the vocal path. We don't use a true DAW - Audacity is as close as we get to a DAW, and we use it sparingly. As we're singing, Audacity is recording the vocal. We listen to the backing tracks from a WAV file on our computer desktop. Once we've saved the vocal recording in Audacity, we slightly contour/shape the vocal with mild EQ and light compression. In Audacity, we mix the vocal with the backing tracks. We're done with the vocal recording. Our vocal tracks are almost always one cut, start to finish. We never cut & paste. We just sing it and record it in one continuous take. Sometimes we'll do three or four vocal cuts and select the one we like the most. Any vocal "shaping" is done via the amp controls and a final touch with Audacity. If it can't be done that way, it doesn't get done. We don't use an audio interface, equalizer, compressor, etc. It's all raw vocal into the guitar amp and then lightly touched up in Audacity. We love the depth of tone we get through the guitar amplifier. We also sing with the reverb already set. We prefer spring reverb to digital reverb. If interested, here are links to four original songs we wrote and recorded with that process, as we do with all our vocal recordings. These songs are in four totally different genres with the amp settings adjusted (usually very minor adjustments are necessary) for the genre and "feel" for the voice at that particular time. Recently we've started using Soundcloud's mastering process. We get three free master per month. 1. "Burning" - Di, my wife, singing. A classic RnB song of the 1970s and 1980s: https://soundcloud.com/alananddi/burning2. "You" - Di singing again on this one. Brazilian Bossa Nova. Backing tracks redone in early 2021 but using the the original recording. https://soundcloud.com/alananddi/you-remix3. "That Wasn't In Our Plans" - Me singing. A contemporary Pop-Country Ballad. https://soundcloud.com/alananddi/that-wasnt-in-our-plans4. "Spending Time With You" - Di singing. Big Band music typical of the 1940s and 1950s. https://soundcloud.com/alananddi/spending-time-with-youWe're pretty happy with the sound we get from our process. We don't see a need to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars, or more, when we can get what we think is excellent sound recordings from our method. I normally wouldn't put links to any of our songs in this type of post as it might come across as "self-promotion" - that's not the intention. But, because our process is almost "Neanderthal" in terms of music recording methods, we just wanted to show that it really works quite nicely for us. Good luck to everyone with their music efforts. Alan & Di
Last edited by Al-David; 11/30/21 04:58 PM.
BIAB 2024 Ultra Plus-all StylePaks*Win11*16GB DDR5*Rhyzen 9745x*AT 2035 Mic*Peavey Nashville 112 Amp*Ibanez ART120* Acoustic/Electric/Washburn D200S Acoustic*Stromberg Monterey Jazz Guitar Loops: https://aldavidmusic.wixsite.com/bestmusicloops
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My pre-production vocal chain is totally different than my Post-Production vocal chain. For pre-production I just use a vocal chain pre-set that comes with Sonar. It has EQ, Compression, Echo, and Reverb. That just serves to give me comfort when recording the lead vocal. Sometimes I add Autotune as the first effect so I can hear how close I am to being in tune. With the Autotune and the Sonar vocal chain preset I get no latency. Once I have a recording I like I use a different set of effects for post production. I may still use Autotune cause I don't like Melodyne since I may comp a few lines that I hear differently as the song progresses. In my post-production chain I start with a Sonar noise-gate, Sonar Compressor, then I usually use iZotope Nectar modifying whatever preset I use but most have compression, reverb, delay, de-esser, saturation, and eq. I finish by adding another compressor to keep the vocal levels tight. I usually copy the lead vocal to 3 tracks with a hard left, hard right, and hard center. Then those tracks are routed to a vocal bus. I may play with the effects on the Left, right, or center tracks but the core effects still remain on the vocal bus. Anyway that's how I do it.
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My signal chain for 'recording' vocals (since this is the Recording Mixing forum) -
Mic into either Focusrite preamp and then direct USB to computer (recorded dry) .. or Mic into VTB1, then into interface and direct USB from there.
Which mic depends on vocalist .. Barry likes an SM58, I prefer using an SM57, but many times we use an LCD for others. Actually, depending on the song/need, Barry fluctuates between LCD and SM58 .. each has their own sound.
We both prefer the LCD mics through the VTB1 for some reason, but the Focusrite works fine too.
I record the vocals 'dry' but the vocalist can hear FX while they sing if they want .. that's routing and a whole 'nuther discussion.
Each session is different for the different needs .. FX applied for the singer's comfort are not necessarily what we'll want 'printed' in the end, thus I record dry so I have a clean slate to start with.
After that, every song is different for the mixing/production side .. I think it has to be.
Just checked and VTB1's are pretty cheap right now, FWIW
I think it's a real nice preamp for the price
I haven't even begun to experiment with switching the tube, which some say makes it even better.
Last edited by rharv; 12/01/21 01:29 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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"Just checked and VTB1's are pretty cheap right now, FWIW I think it's a real nice preamp for the price I haven't even begun to experiment with switching the tube, which some say makes it even better." Ditto on the VTB1. I like to run my Studio Projects T3 through it, which is a tube mic- so I'm running through two tubes into my interface. You can never have too many tubes.  Regards, Bob
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CHAIN for A ROUGH, UNMUSICAL VOICE
Good old 12v TUBE action... I have two tube preamp units powered that way and they both offer "tube drive" in as many words. That usually means the vocal signal doesn't actually pass through the tube or sometimes a little signal is siphoned to the tube circuit just before output though. Pleasant noise from the tube, ( a little hard to achieve with starved plate technology but not impossible), is blended into the signal on the way out.
It doesn't matter how it's achieved though as how it sounds is the important thing.
I use one of three condenser mics with a pencil across the front as well as a "pop" screen between me & it, straight into, and phantom powered by, my interface. PThe pencil reduces plosives & pop addresses essing a bit.
No effects on the way in but a bundle of things are done in the box because I have an awful voice even when in tune.
The most significant, consistent and important to my ears is manual de-essing. I pull up the track, turn on pre FX volume automation and reduce the aggressive sounds one at a time. this is reasonably easy as in wav mode they appear very similar, in spectral mode there are just as easy to pick out & even easier to "SEE" the amount of de-essing applied. Doing it this way means that I'm not "dulling" the vocal track with an always on and relatively broad EQ cut. Most de-essers are based on an EQ triggering compressor - setting the Q on the EQ is very important and very difficult - realistically different instances and settings for ess, T, CH & P etc.It also means I don't have to undo everything by adding "air" to the vocal at the end of the chain.
I then EQ my voice as there are a couple of gaps/dips/holes in my vocal freq range - avoiding the essing of course.
After those things are sorted I'll try a compressor to level the vocal dynamics but if subtle use of one doesn't work then I'll automate the levels manually & then drop a lighter comp on the track afterward.
If I want an aggressive vocal I'll place Antress/Modern's Deathcore compressor in the chain, crank its input, reduce the output & set the comp at its heaviest. This colours the vocal, almost brick walls the vocal and can produce some problems with transients but it suits aggressive music.To use this comp for this effect the de-essing has to be REALLY aggressive.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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look up some of the old threads on www.gearspace.comcomparing the 60 buk art tube mp with expensive hi end mic pre's. hilarious. some people say after conditioning a trak post recording with plug ins...in the hands of a pro AE the art can do a really nice job for cheap. what some people do is feed art output .... to line input on a usb audio interface. particularly if a 57 etc. om
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The problem with Shure dynamics is that they were designed to be 150Ω (nowadays measures around 260Ω) and the ideal load is 600Ω, the old Bell Telephone spec. (4x the input but 500–1000Ω is acceptable.). Solid state mic preamps are normally 1300–2400Ω which does not load the input directly. Shure knows this but the so-called "industry standard" has sold a gazilian units. This leads to excess proximity effect, early distortion and lousy transient response. Vintage mic pres from Shure, EV, Altec etc. are all 600Ω — even the old Shure VocalMaster PA.
There are many fixes for this including variable impedance mic pres, Cloudlifter, Cloudlifter CLZ with a variable impedance pot (turn the pot and listen to the changes). You can get an 823Ω resistor and wire it in parallel using a cable or inline barrel connector for about $10; substitute a 1KΩ variable resistor in a box and you can ape the CLZ without the volume boost. Once you've heard a cymbal or high-hat through a properly loaded 57, you'll be amazed how good it actually sounds.
At least the output of an SM7B is so low that you're forced to use a decent mic pre in front of it.
I guess it's now time for everyone to tell me how wrong I am — but I happen to be right.
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Mike. wont get any disagreement from moi. good points. dunno how good it is.. see art variable input impedence called RP1. looks like a new product. https://artproaudio.com/product/rp-1-mic-preamp/best om
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Good but not a lot of money. Buy an off-the-shelf regulated power supply, this is optimized for 220VDC. Do not exceed 250VDC. Use a Jensen JT- 115k input transformer ( don't buy a cheap junk input transformer) ECC82 valves or if you are on this side of the pond 12AU7 tubes...lol https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/jt-115k-epc.pdf Optional  Perhaps Video Track could comment. He is very knowledgeable about this stuff. You may have to search around for the jensen-transformers. Everything electronic is a bit hard to find at the moment. Most of the material cost is in the transformers. Perhaps three hundred for all the parts. Just a guess. But you would have a first-class tube mic pre. There are only two actual tubes in this. This could actually be point to point wired in a few hours. Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 12/01/21 07:01 PM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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The problem with Shure dynamics is that they were designed to be 150Ω (nowadays measures around 260Ω) and the ideal load is 600Ω, the old Bell Telephone spec. (4x the input but 500–1000Ω is acceptable.). Solid state mic preamps are normally 1300–2400Ω which does not load the input directly. Shure knows this but the so-called "industry standard" has sold a gazilian units. This leads to excess proximity effect, early distortion and lousy transient response. Vintage mic pres from Shure, EV, Altec etc. are all 600Ω — even the old Shure VocalMaster PA.
There are many fixes for this including variable impedance mic pres, Cloudlifter, Cloudlifter CLZ with a variable impedance pot (turn the pot and listen to the changes). You can get an 823Ω resistor and wire it in parallel using a cable or inline barrel connector for about $10; substitute a 1KΩ variable resistor in a box and you can ape the CLZ without the volume boost. Once you've heard a cymbal or high-hat through a properly loaded 57, you'll be amazed how good it actually sounds.
At least the output of an SM7B is so low that you're forced to use a decent mic pre in front of it.
I guess it's now time for everyone to tell me how wrong I am — but I happen to be right. You're not wrong  I love a good preamp with variable input impedance for this reason. It makes a night and day difference on my SM7B's, 57's, 58's, and some of my other dynamic mics. I built one of those "5 dollar preamps" - with a bit more than 5 dollars of parts to add in a pad, high pass, balanced output, toroidal transformer in the power supply, input protection, 1U rack mount with stereo pre's, and of course variable impedance. Worth every penny. Good but not a lot of money. Buy an off-the-shelf regulated power supply, this is optimized for 220VDC. Do not exceed 250VDC. Use a Jensen JT- 115k input transformer ( don't buy a cheap junk input transformer) ECC82 valves or if you are on this side of the pond 12AU7 tubes...lol https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/jt-115k-epc.pdfOptional Perhaps Video Track could comment. He is very knowledgeable about this stuff. You may have to search around for the jensen-transformers. Everything electronic is a bit hard to find at the moment. Most of the material cost is in the transformers. Perhaps three hundred for all the parts. Just a guess. But you would have a first-class tube mic pre. There are only two actual tubes in this. This could actually be point to point wired in a few hours. Billy Hmm, interesting circuit in the pics you attached - it's an inverted cascode compared to the one in the Jensen cascode schematic, and is two gainstages plus a single cascode vs dual cascodes. Where did that schematic come from? At a first glance, there might be a tad more noise than the dual cascode, but it's hard to say. I should make one..... Also, a note on input transformers - I've had good luck ripping apart old dead mixing boards for input transformers. Most of them don't have quite a high enough ratio for tube preamps, but they still tend to work fairly well for a free/cheap transformer.
I work here
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I really don't remember where I ran across the schematic. I have a big folder of schematics. I have not built this preamp but it looked like it would work well.
I am seriously thinking about building it. I just have not found a jt 115k for sale, plus they are a bit pricy. I need to look at other brands.
See if you can find some "two rock" amp schematics/photos and look at how they do tube placement. I would do as much shielding as I could. The power supply however it is designed needs not to be noisy. One reason I never used switching power supplies, plus I don't really understand the design. I am not opposed to transistors, I just don't have much experience with them.
I have a lot going on at the moment. This has sort of been shoved on the back burner.
I have to keep my neighbors, three young teenage girls, for a few days while they go out of town. Had to go lock up all my guns, and be sure all the serious meds I have had to take are locked up. Kids are curious about everything and I want to provide a safe environment for them.
Prepping things for the new vocalist, dealing with the speech therapy issues after the hospital stay, trips to the hospital today for radiology of my throat. Electronics will have to be set on hold for a while.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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We are rather simplistic as follows: Pop filter > Rodes NT1 mic > Scarlett 212 interface > Logic Pro X (DAW) > Izotope Nectar Breath Control > Izotope Nectar 90% of the time we use a self created Nectar preset with the following Nectar modules in the presented order: EQ (2db bump at 400-800HZ & 4k-6kHZ) I've used this for 30 years on her vocals. Tape Sat Vintage compressor sim - very simple single band Analog Delay (very slight) Reverb (EMT 140 Plate simulation) Light tweaks to the above per mix needs. Never have used Nectar's de-esser or done any manual de-essing. Never use Nectar or Logic's pitch editors. Janice's note bending would likely detonate them  Bud PS Above copied from my response to floyd's post on same subject.
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The only pitch editor I have really tried much is Melodyne. It is only marginally useful and if you want to get the most out of it requires dealing with single notes. It is very useful for changing timing issues. I just got auto-tune, so I have not really had a chance to try it. It is kinda pricey at $25 a month. Here is a short video. https://youtu.be/KK5qPxqGYu8Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 12/08/21 05:24 AM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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I really don't remember where I ran across the schematic. I have a big folder of schematics. I have not built this preamp but it looked like it would work well.
I am seriously thinking about building it. I just have not found a jt 115k for sale, plus they are a bit pricy. I need to look at other brands.
See if you can find some "two rock" amp schematics/photos and look at how they do tube placement. I would do as much shielding as I could. The power supply however it is designed needs not to be noisy. One reason I never used switching power supplies, plus I don't really understand the design. I am not opposed to transistors, I just don't have much experience with them.
I have a lot going on at the moment. This has sort of been shoved on the back burner.
I have to keep my neighbors, three young teenage girls, for a few days while they go out of town. Had to go lock up all my guns, and be sure all the serious meds I have had to take are locked up. Kids are curious about everything and I want to provide a safe environment for them.
Prepping things for the new vocalist, dealing with the speech therapy issues after the hospital stay, trips to the hospital today for radiology of my throat. Electronics will have to be set on hold for a while.
Billy Well it looks like it would be a good schematic to try out, plus if it doesn't work well you can always scavenge the transformers for something else. Check out Cinemag transformers - I think they might be a bit less than Jensen. A local electronics company Sonic Farm uses them in their preamps iirc - one of their designers Boris was a professor of mine. Switching power supplies are nothing to be afraid of really - my RME Fireface has one built in, as does my MOTU 828 MK3, and chances are most of your audio equipment does too. They're not something I'd recommend building from scratch - I had to build a power supply for a mixer that needed +-18v at around 5 amps (plus 48v for phantom), so I used pre-made PSU modules - the whole thing cost about $100 including a 2U rackmount enclosure. Hope your speech therapy goes well! We are rather simplistic as follows: Pop filter > Rodes NT1 mic > Scarlett 212 interface > Logic Pro X (DAW) > Izotope Nectar Breath Control > Izotope Nectar 90% of the time we use a self created Nectar preset with the following Nectar modules in the presented order: EQ (2db bump at 400-800HZ & 4k-6kHZ) I've used this for 30 years on her vocals. Tape Sat Vintage compressor sim - very simple single band Analog Delay (very slight) Reverb (EMT 140 Plate simulation) Light tweaks to the above per mix needs. Never have used Nectar's de-esser or done any manual de-essing. Never use Nectar or Logic's pitch editors. Janice's note bending would likely detonate them Bud PS Above copied from my response to floyd's post on same subject. Sounds like a solid signal chain there. Not sure which compressor you're using, but I quite like the Molotok compressor from TDR - it's a good freebie, and works in Band-in-a-Box. The only pitch editor I have really tried much is Melodyne. It is only marginally useful and if you want to get the most out of it requires dealing with single notes. It is very useful for changing timing issues. I just got auto-tune, so I have not really had a chance to try it. It is kinda pricey at $25 a month. Here is a short video. https://youtu.be/KK5qPxqGYu8Billy Auto-tune is pretty good, but I've found it's best use is on bass - it does a fantastic job of pitch tracking and tuning on bass guitar. Otherwise I end up using the built-in pitch correction in Logic.
I work here
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,610
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Jan 19th, 2020
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