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Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
I have to say that I don't think any of what David said was either snobbish or hypocritical.


"Back in the day, musicians had beautiful souls, but today, they have the souls of garbage dumps" is not exactly "to each his own". =8^)



Perhaps it would have better to say MOST. There was plenty of bad music back then too. And there is some great music today too. Because it is so very easy to put music out today, it's harder to find the gems among the crap. Same thing with books. It's become way too easy for anyone regardless of talent or skills to make something. That's the bad. The good is that it's easy for talented people to get there work out today, without being taken advantage of by the record labels, agents, and managers.

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Originally Posted By: saxgentleman67
There was plenty of bad music back then too. And there is some great music today too.


The thing is, all the garbage from decades past is forgiven and forgotten. When we speak of, say, the 1930s, we are talking about what has stood the test of time and come down to us today. When I say "I like 1930s music", my sample is totally skewed: unless I'm a serious musicologist, I'm talking about the very best 1930s music, and it's very easy to ignore the rest.

When we speak of "today's music", though, we're talking about all of it, because there it all is, whatever is going on right now, unfiltered by the judgement of history, all the crap still roiling in the pot.

No wonder people always talk about the good old days. But on behalf of the present, I say not fair. The past has had so much more time to prepare.

Last edited by Mark Hayes; 12/20/21 10:00 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes


"Back in the day, musicians had beautiful souls, but today, they have the souls of garbage dumps" is not exactly "to each his own". =8^)




Good Lord.

It is not even what I said. I said:

"Comparatively, when I hear the majority of 'entertainers' today it sounds like they have the soul of a garbage dump."

And I was using the English language. Two different thoughts! Now I am flummoxed.

Perhaps I should have added basic reading skills to my list of desired traits from the Golden Days!

Ummmmpfff. I am going back to my audiophile corner and listen to more Gershwin. The lack of basics around here is insufferable.

I say!

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
"Back in the day, musicians had beautiful souls, but today, they have the souls of garbage dumps" is not exactly "to each his own". =8^)

It is not even what I said. I said:

"Comparatively, when I hear the majority of 'entertainers' today it sounds like they have the soul of a garbage dump."


You are correct, sir. I "Adam Shiffed" your Perfect Post. I will go correct my earlier post immediately.

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I did say most. Actually I said "the majority of entertainers."

smile

I am being somewhat tongue-in-cheek and putting on airs on purpose for the sake of frivolity, but my main point remains the same.

With books, there are 8,000 new books added to Amazon each day.

With free samples you can read the first three chapters of anything you want.

I would say that 99.99999999% of stuff released is absolutely unreadable. At least to me, it is. Ok, ok, maybe that also is hyperbolic. Maybe I should say "much" or "a lot of it" to be fair. I do run across good stuff from time to time.

But the biggest problem is that 99.999999% of the effort put forth by people (and taught by others) is solely on marketing, not writing.

That is a problem. If you are going to put out a book you should be able to write, I think.

But apparently, most people missed that memo, and heard "You should know how to promote yourself and ask your friends for 5-star reviews."

By any standard, in any genre, what passes for writing these days is MOST of the time just horrific--to me.


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Originally Posted By: saxgentleman67
There was plenty of bad music back then too.


Thoughout this I've had one particular record in the back of my mind.

I've long been a King Crimson fan, but they had good periods and bad periods.

One of the bad periods was the album "Red" which, and goodness only know why, they chose to master on a cassette recorder. It was a very good cassette recorder, but was still total cr*p in comparison with open reel. Not surprisingly the vinyl was even worse as there's always a reduction in quality when one converts from one media to another.


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Originally Posted By: David Snyder


But the biggest problem is that 99.999999% of the effort put forth by people (and taught by others) is solely on marketing, not writing.


I think this is your own belief. There's some truth in it, particularly about that's what's being taught in book marketing....HOWEVER there is a much simpler explanation which I think is more accurate.

Most people are bad writers.

Most people don't have or won't spend the money on a good editor.

Many people are more interested in a promotional book to sell something else. (again because that's what they were taught)

And finally, we are living in an age of fluffy-ness. And that lack of depth is reflected in the arts of this time period as well. The average attention span is down from what had been 25 seconds 20 years ago to just a few seconds.

Most people don't have any real connection with real humans any longer. (This happened way before physical social distancing.

Are brains are being programmed from the addictive dopamine hits we get from interacting on social media.

Our culture is/has become one of entertainment not education. Thus more video focused and much less reading focused. And more superficial than ever before. More narcissistic than ever before.

So yeah, the music reflects the overall decline of that our society is going through. The good news is when things get bad enough, great music will come out of it. And the whole process will start all over again.

This thread touches on strong topic for many people. It's no surprise that it strikes a strong nerve sometimes.

My own belief is live your truth. And don't get too hung up on whether or not it's actually true. Because for the most part it's only really gonna be true for you.

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Originally Posted By: saxgentleman67
The average attention span is down from what had been 25 seconds 20 years ago to just a few seconds.


If that's correct, and I hae no reason to doubt it, then I'm actually quite shocked if it was only 25 seconds 20 years ago.

I see people scrolling aimlessly through social media, often not stopping to look at anything or to read anything. Vacant. Mesmerised.

I watch documentaries.
All of the sentences are short.
They have very few commas.
Everything is in tiny sized bites.


I bought some bread rolls a while back. "Two bags with eight in each" I said to the cashier. She gave a slightly crestfallen look and asked "You don't happen to know how many in total do you?"

What I find most shocking is that I imagine most people can do more than those suggest, but so often they're spoon fed to the point that they simply stop thinking.

Conversely, we get crime dramas with so many threads that an intelligent thinking person can become overloaded with information, and I wonder how many people follow the plot and how many just sit mesmerised until the hero magics up a solution from nowhere.


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I went back and listened to the entire youtube video that was in the original post.

This is a classic advertising method in use today. Provide information you think people will have an interest in and also tell them about your product or service that you have for sale.

The information in the video is a pretty simplified version of what electronic engineers have done to answer the basic question about the scientifically demonstratable " technical" difference between digital and analog recordings.

The real issue is in the original question. How do you define "better"? It is essentially a meaningless question because there is no agreed-on definition of the word "better" as it is used to analyze or compare digital and analog recording mediums.

The only answer is perception and preference. "My "perception" is that one sounds "better" with no viable way to scientifically validate or demonstrate that.

Due to the fact that "preference" varies widely and we have become more polarized, less excepting, more fearful, and less tolerant of other people's "preferences," the discussions often become increasingly more continuous.

There are way too many attempts nowadays to define things in simplistic terms of "good and bad", "right or wrong". That is a very monochromatic view of the world with little or no attention to the various shades of grey or real cause and effect.

We often have little interest in the truth and in fact, often profane it when we are subjected to it.

Cheers,

Billy


Last edited by Planobilly; 12/21/21 04:52 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Planobilly
.........................................

Due to the fact that "preference" varies widely and we have become more polarized, less excepting, more fearful, and less tolerant of other people's "preferences," the discussions often become increasingly more continuous.

There are way too many attempts nowadays to define things in simplistic terms of "good and bad", "right or wrong". That is a very monochromatic view of the world with little or no attention to the various shades of grey or real cause and effect.

We often have little interest in the truth and in fact, often profane it when we are subjected to it.

Cheers,

Billy



I totally agree.

Well said Billy.


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Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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Originally Posted By: Planobilly
We often have little interest in the truth and in fact, often profane it when we are subjected to it.


But you just said there is no truth, just meaningless words and personal preferences. So what are you saying people should care more about?

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Hello Sax,

Of course it is my belief. No one else is saying it. smile

But it is more than a belief. It is an observation backed up by evidence. For various reasons, I am inundated with sales pitches from people who promise to teach you how to write the great new bestseller. All experts. But guess how many have written one?

The Internet is flooded with these "experts" and pitches. Like the music world, the waters are infested. Price tags often start at $3,000 and go up from there.

The common denominator is that everything (or almost everything) focuses on MARKETING. Every way you look. Not content. Hype.

I cannot tell you how many people ask me to read their new book and give them a 5-star. I can't do it, because I know I should be giving a 1 or a 2 and I can't.

There is something in our culture that borders on a global narcissistic insanity and I can't even process it anymore. So, I just keep my head down and go about my business. I have no idea where it will all take us. I have participated in large studies that show the dumbing down of culture is very real and very frightening. Critical thinking skills are becoming non-existent. Most people have surrendered their brains to technology. Almost every sentence uttered is a regurgitated opinion from someone else, supported by no facts. The media supports and applauds the idiocy as long as it is the right type of idiocy.

I can't see how it will turn out well.

Oh, well. It was a good planet while it lasted.

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"Most people have surrendered their brains to technology. Almost every sentence uttered is a regurgitated opinion from someone else, supported by no facts."

The philosophic well is deep here. Much of this resonates with me in that songwriting and musicianship is a gem you now must dig for as technology, Band-in-a-Box included, has allowed nearly everyone to claim credentials in these two spaces. The ability to navigate software menus and showcase expertise in a mouse click to generate 'music' translates mostly into a polished proverbial turd that surprisingly wins approval from a fair amount of people. It is a tough pill to swallow that most who do just this do not want to hear the sobering news so I will put things in context that is both illuminating and hopeful: my son is a drummer and a fine one. While he doesn't use this particular software, he "writes" songs cutting and pasting beats along with synth pads and I dare say, for a moment in my head, they sound good. I endorse this behavior because it permits him to flesh out musical ideas he could not otherwise do because he only plays one instrument. He is young yet not naive - he views that 'compositional' activity and the software itself as tools.

BIAB is just that in my eyes. A tool. And a very effective one in the hands of a musician. (Consider its original intent: a ready backup band for jazz musicians to woodshed over.) At the risk of rustling feathers, it fails painfully if that tool becomes the crutch disguised as art for at the end of the day PG Music feeds the content and no cutting and pasting will elevate the craft hopefully most of us are engaged in.

If the above is noise to your ears, I guess at the end of the day I miss Gershwin too.

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Originally Posted By: GodTripped
The ability to navigate software menus and showcase expertise in a mouse click to generate 'music' translates mostly into a polished proverbial turd that surprisingly wins approval from a fair amount of people. It is a tough pill to swallow that most who do just this do not want to hear the sobering news so I will put things in context that is both illuminating and hopeful: my son is a drummer...


I like making pieces with drum parts, but I am not a drummer and I know nothing about drumming, and writing drum parts from scratch is particularly hard because there are SO many notes.

Enter (1) BIAB and (2) Logic's robot Drummer. With these fantastic tools I am able to whip up massive percussion tracks that sound great, and life is good.

But the other day I dug up a decades old MIDI project, where I created the drum part by clicking in all the hits, and while it sounded simplistic and completely unprofessional, it was interesting and melodic in a way I don't try to do anymore.

Sure, if I want to write good drum parts I have to learn how to do that, both in terms of drumming technique and software editors. But if I have a couple of tools here and now that will work perfectly? It is just soooo tempting to skip the hard work and let the bot keep the beat.

I love the technology, but it does create this personal challenge, for me at least.

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Again, the activities you describe are useful for fleshing out an idea and/or to tap performances on instruments one cannot play. I was speaking more to the theme of the post addressing how technology in the wrong hands can pass for art. The production level is such that much passes for quality songwriting and music when closer inspection reveals anything but.

I am a fan of it and it is a competent tool for making demos.

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Originally Posted By: GodTripped
I am a fan of it and it is a competent tool for making demos.


Ah, but you can't give people super-awesome tools for creating music and then tell them, "Of course, this is just for demos, if you want to be a real musician you have to do all this yourself." People will make the music they make with the tools they have and that will be how they make their music, and they will think of it as the real thing, not some approximation or substitute.

Interestingly, a look around the net into discussions on non-PG forums will find people saying exactly this about Band-in-a-Box! I have seen it called "cheating". And of course I get it, but of course I object.

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My real reply would take almost a book, but I will try and hit some highlights.

When I was younger, I use to hang out with some of the world's top medical experts in neuroscience and other fields. Across the board they were horrified by advances in technology and felt that people would become so reliant on computers for basic thinking that the human capacity for discernment or critical thinking would totally disappear. Some even said they had empirical evidence that the human brain was de-evolving. In other words, technology is making us stupid. To quote an example given by a forum member, how many people can calculate a tip in a restaurant now without the calculator on their iPhone? You would be surprised. I think these doctors were not only right, they were prophetic.

I always grew up feeling and believing that music is the purest expression of the human soul.

If you use a flute, a piano, any other instrument(s) or even Band-in-a-Box to capture and present deep feelings that represent an "expression" of your soul, then I am eagerly waiting to hear. Yes, a tool is just a tool. It is the "soul" part that is most important.

When I read most books today, or listen to most new music today, would I so often find missing is the "soul." It all seems rather lifeless. In books, I see attempts at clever plots, but I am left wondering: have you ever met a human being? A real woman? A real man? Do you have the slightest idea what makes people tick? What makes people do what they do? The foggiest clue? Almost everything today (to me) reads like a cartoon.

When I listen to most new music: same thing. I hear robots. I am not moved. There is nothing "human" to recognize. I don't hear the human soul. I hear a computer.

BUT, I am a huge fan of BIAB and products like it when they allow me to add FLAVOR to the stuff I am working on. A huge fan. There is a line that you cross when you bring nothing to the table yourself, though, and I think most people know were that line is. You have to be careful with the robots, unless you want to become one. (Yet, I cannot begin to express how much I have LEARNED from Band-in-a-Box by studying great players play, in notation, and trying to do what they do. That is a gift to humanity.)

All that I have said is the reason why I turn on the classical station at 8 a.m. and usually do not turn it off until 11 p.m. It stays on all day. My soul recognizes what it hears, in this case.

Final note: although we do not always agree on this forum, it is still the only forum I really visit. There are some smart people on here for sure.

I used to visit the big name social media platforms (albeit briefly) and I just couldn't take it. The level of self-promotional absorption and constant "branding" and hype is just too much. I can't handle it.

That is my short version. The longer one is 500 pages.

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Deep stuff David, I love it.... You could make a song using the write-up as your lyrics...




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You miss my point. Of course people will do what they want. Again, I was chiming in on the original post and its legitimate concern that those who made music prior to 15 years ago did so because they had some musical skill in which to do so. There was very little to hide behind and the crap was quickly identified as such and promptly placed in the budget rack at your local record store.

BIAB and tools like it lend polish to the ill equipped save their mouse clicks and processing power, and to the point of the original post, the market is flush with dismissible works. The question to ask is, if you strip BIAB out of the equation will the song and the musicianship hold under its own weight? I boldly say no.

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Originally Posted By: GodTripped
BIAB and tools like it lend polish to the ill equipped save their mouse clicks and processing power, and to the point of the original post, the market is flush with dismissible works. The question to ask is, if you strip BIAB out of the equation will the song and the musicianship hold under its own weight? I boldly say no.


Yikes. I guess it depends on what you mean by "the song", but that's harsh.

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