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I find that chords are more important than multistyles #694876 12/29/21 09:08 PM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043	I previously hoped that the more multistyles, the better. I tried more chord changes today, and found it was very good, the accompaniment was more stable, and it was more suitable for singing. So although it is just a pattern, the chord changes more, which will effectively improve the feeling of accompaniment repetition. But I sang this song. If you are doing rap, there may be fewer chords, and at most 1-4 chords may be used in the whole song. Because I found that many good songs have very few chords. Maybe they use a lot of substitutions? WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694877 12/29/21 10:35 PM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,352 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,352 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: swingbabymix ...Because I found that many good songs have very few chords. Maybe they use a lot of substitutions? My recommendation is not to lock yourself in to too many rules, especially as far as chord structures go. Remain flexible. Your results will be broader also. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles AudioTrack #694899 12/30/21 01:19 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043	ok WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694902 12/30/21 02:46 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England Bob Calver Expert
Bob Calver Expert Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England	basic fact is that chords are the building blocks of music in BIAB. you have to get those right. whizzy features such as multi styles are what you go for when you need them not as a starting point. so create music by what sounds good not what the software is capable of. thousandths and thousands of hit pop and country songs use only three chords and thousands more only use six when they add their relative minors. and the same songs often use no more than majors, minors and sevenths. at least in pop and country.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Bob Calver #694917 12/30/21 04:28 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688	Originally Posted By: Bob Calver thousandths and thousands of hit pop and country songs use only three chords I’m trying to figure out what he means when he asks if they use a lot of “substitutions”. I guess the idea is that Woody Guthrie sat down at BIAB and banged out “This Land Is Your Land” with the normal ration of hairy jazz chords but then BIAB took over and simplified it. It would be interesting to hear the original.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694923 12/30/21 04:53 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England Bob Calver Expert
Bob Calver Expert Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England	i think we keep uncovering some basic lack of music knowledge. he's not just learning BIAB as he goes along but how music works. if he's working off sheet music he might be entering chords that we would automatically simplify. and i agree with Woody that 'anything more than three chords is showing off'.........

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Bob Calver #694929 12/30/21 05:29 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Bob Calver i think we keep uncovering some basic lack of music knowledge. he's not just learning BIAB as he goes along but how music works. if he's working off sheet music he might be entering chords that we would automatically simplify. I agree. It sounds like he started at ground zero and is trying to learn everything at once. But I really give him credit to learning this way. That is something I don't think that I could do. Originally Posted By: Bob Calver and i agree with Woody that 'anything more than three chords is showing off'......... I do not agree with you on this one. Many great songs have more than just three chords. Classical, jazz, pop, folk, you name it each genre has songs with more than three chords. Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles MarioD #694938 12/30/21 06:10 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688	Originally Posted By: MarioD It sounds like he started at ground zero and is trying to learn everything at once. But I really give him credit to learning this way. When you put it that way, it sounds awesome, almost heroic, like Abraham Lincoln trudging through the snow to get a lump of coal to do arithmetic on the back of a shovel. But I imagine someone sitting in a class, ignoring the teacher and his fellow students, surfing the Internet on his phone and periodically yelling out random questions based on what he finds. If you answer a specific question, he will pop his head up long enough to record your answer, argue with you, mention something he wants, then dive back into surfing the Internet (which he has called the "best teacher".) Maybe I'm being unkind, but I see a serious problem with this approach to "learning", as evidenced by the extremely odd title of this thread. Of course, surf the Internet and you will encounter a barrage of marketing from companies promising to teach you how to write 100 songs a day with zero knowledge of music. They will mock the "old fashioned" ways and assure you you don't need ANY of that to emit Monetizeable Musical Material. BIAB and Scaler will help you automate the entire process! Once you learn the software you can plug one program into the other and have your computer write music while you sleep. Sorry, can't type any more, my old fart hat has slipped down over my eyes. Last edited by Mark Hayes; 12/30/21 06:41 AM.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694945 12/30/21 06:25 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 25,860 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 25,860 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Swingbabymix, I don’t know if ‘substitutions’ means the same thing to you as it does to me (for example a tri-tone substitution). Also, many of the Brazilian songs I work with may have four chords in the first measure, never mind the whole song. And for anyone who says it’s showing off; it’s not. It’s perfectly normal for the genre. BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Mark Hayes #694957 12/30/21 06:41 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,454 Spain C Cerio Expert
Cerio Expert C Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,454 Spain	Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes But I imagine someone sitting in a class, ignoring the teacher and his fellow students, surfing the Internet on his phone and periodically yelling out random questions based on what he finds. If you answer a specific question, he will pop his head up long enough to record your answer, argue with you, mention something he wants, then dive back into surfing the Internet (which he has called the "best teacher".) Maybe I'm being unkind, but I see a serious problem with this approach to "learning", I absolutely agree. Originally Posted By: Matt Finley Swingbabymix, Also, many of the Brazilian songs I work with may have four chords in the first measure, never mind the whole song. And for anyone who says it’s showing off; it’s not. It’s perfectly normal for the genre. Also agreed. Brazilian musicians do that all the time, not only when composing, but also when playing live and reharmonizing on the fly. BIAB 2024, latest build.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Mark Hayes #694963 12/30/21 07:00 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes When you put it that way, it sounds awesome, almost heroic, like Abraham Lincoln trudging through the snow to get a lump of coal to do arithmetic on the back of a shovel. But I imagine someone sitting in a class, ignoring the teacher and his fellow students, surfing the Internet on his phone and periodically yelling out random questions based on what he finds. If you answer a specific question, he will pop his head up long enough to record your answer, argue with you, mention something he wants, then dive back into surfing the Internet (which he has called the "best teacher".) Maybe I'm being unkind, but I see a serious problem with this approach to "learning", as evidenced by the extremely odd title of this thread. Of course, surf the Internet and you will encounter a barrage of marketing from companies promising to teach you how to write 100 songs a day with zero knowledge of music. They will mock the "old fashioned" ways and assure you you don't need ANY of that to emit Monetizeable Musical Material. BIAB and Scaler will help you automate the entire process! Once you learn the software you can plug one program into the other and have your computer write music while you sleep. Sorry, can't type any more, my old fart hat has slipped down over my eyes. I agree. I'm old school, that is learn how to read music and learn at least some theory. I know you do not need to learn theory to write or play music but IMHO learning theory will help your playing/writing. I totally agree with your second paragraph. Answers have been given that were ignored. A number of us have suggested getting an intro to music theory book. Some of his questions have been answered by other questions that would have been obvious if a little theory and/or playing experience were applied. I still stand by my statement "started at ground zero and is trying to learn everything at once". IMHO, and I might be wrong here, it seems that instead of cracking a book he wants to be spoon fed answers by forum members. YMMV Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694969 12/30/21 07:21 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2021 Posts: 26 Montclair, NJ GodTripped Enthusiast
GodTripped Enthusiast Joined: Dec 2021 Posts: 26 Montclair, NJ	I actually think there are no "wrong" chords if they support the melody. Consider your basic circle of 5th/4ths construct and there are chord relationships shared by multiple keys. There is clearly no rule that restricts you from "borrowing" from other key centers. As for 'substitutions', tritones make anything possible and this is the path to adding 'color' where a standard more predictable chord can sit. Proof? Joni Mitchell does it. Sting more deliberately so. But the king of this? Stevie Wonder. The more I think on this cat, the more it makes sense why it is easy for him to break the rules: he trusted his ears and it if sounded good, who cares what the rules are. Revisit My Cherie first and then nearly any other of his tunes as he messes with the listener much to their delight.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles GodTripped #694974 12/30/21 07:43 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688	I think of musical rules as being like rules of the road, but not legal rules, like basic rules of driving. "Leave adequate space for braking" and such, and how to negotiate merges. But these guidelines are just there to help me get where I'm going in one piece, and are immediately overridden by any situational factors. I'm not going to yield to somebody going dangerously slow because it might create a general hazard, I will accelerate past them, and if I'm on a Christmas "light ride" I will disregard a lifetime of habit and turn my headlights off at night. Imagine a musical "rule" that says, "Don't play a song in two different keys at once". It makes sense because of the dissonance that will cause. A bi-tonal piece will quite likely sound awful, and a beginner would be well-advised to have all his players playing in the same key. Of course, if you're Charles Ives, you will do what you want and in fact that will often be EXACTLY what you want, and "rules" do not stop you. The beginning composer, however, is advised not to unintentionally come off sounding like Charles Ives when that was not desired.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #694984 12/30/21 08:33 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2021 Posts: 26 Montclair, NJ GodTripped Enthusiast
GodTripped Enthusiast Joined: Dec 2021 Posts: 26 Montclair, NJ	I get the rules of the road analogy but those rules are in place for the purposes of safety, regardless of how you employ them the reasonable expectation is that they will be observed. The rules of music are considerably blurred by comparison because 'safety' is on no one's mind. (Charlie Parker and Coltrane come to mind.) It is helpful to have intention built into your creative purpose but much is to be said for 'happy accidents' which no musician, educated or not, hasn't stumbled upon in their respective journeys. As for the beginning composer, we have all been there and I dare say it was fun to be ignorant because the absent of rules made us much braver then. My personal struggle as a songwriter is to somehow get "back to the egg" because it all seemed fresh and exciting when we knew nothing.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #695014 12/30/21 11:03 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England Bob Calver Expert
Bob Calver Expert Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England	apologies mario, i realise there are songs with more than three chords - i even know some of them. but my point is quite serious. pop, country and folk are probably the most accessble of genres, and majors, minors and sevenths usually suffice to create a lot of really wonderful music. playing guitar we all get the hang of sus chords and how they resolve - add and take off the g on the top string of a D chord is sonething we all learnt by simply playing or watching other guitarists. it sounds cool and we learnt by doing it! some of the chords the OP is asking qestions about seem to come out of nowhere - unless as i mentioned earlier he is using a program that creates chord sequences. if that's the case he's generating chords with a program and turning them into songs with BIAB instead of starting with the music he wants to create. mind you, if he's attemtping to learn BIAB and jazz from scratch he's braver than i am. but then creating any kind of music without learning an instrument misses a great deal of the pleasure and satisfaction. i do feel we are being used a little - i have had invaluable help from the forum but my first reponse is not to make a psot if i'm not sure how to do something which is what the OP seems to do. Last edited by Bob Calver; 12/30/21 11:07 AM.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Bob Calver #695018 12/30/21 11:28 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,781 Hamlin NY	No need to apologize my friend. No foul no harm. I agree with your last post completely. Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles Bob Calver #695055 12/30/21 02:21 PM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,688	Originally Posted By: Bob Calver if that's the case he's generating chords with a program and turning them into songs with BIAB instead of starting with the music he wants to create I actually think that would be great! He just posted a simple chord progression here, probably emitted by Scaler, that would make a fine BIAB song, creation of which would do far more for him, as a would-be songwriter, than having 10 people explain why E Major sounds cool in the key of C. Last edited by Mark Hayes; 12/30/21 02:23 PM.

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #695127 12/30/21 10:45 PM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England Bob Calver Expert
Bob Calver Expert Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,987 Essex England	But would it? Press button A to get chords. Press button B to get backing. No personal input no creativity. Is that really the way we want music making to go?

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #695128 12/30/21 10:58 PM Beginners Forum
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,043	thanks for your replies! I will work hard to learn chords. However, I may not go to read. Because books are basically translated, I don’t understand. The most important thing is that I have been sleeping since I was young. My main source of music theory knowledge comes from video and direct software operation. With your help, I have a more in-depth understanding of BIAB. The more I use it, the more I like it. Not only can this software help to make music, but I think it is also a very good teaching software. It is difficult for me to understand some chords in a short period of time. I can only rely on memorization or familiarity with the operation. However, I believe that with the accumulation of time, I will change from mere memory to flexible use, and I will gradually get better. thank you all ^0^ WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: I find that chords are more important than multistyles swingbabymix #695136 12/31/21 12:48 AM Beginners Forum
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 275 Worcester, United Kingdom TRYUK Apprentice
TRYUK Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 275 Worcester, United Kingdom	Many, many years ago when I first got in to music, the most helpful thing I found was a circle of fifths wheel. It taught me the basic building blocks of music, in time I found it easier to be able to work out chord patterns, and that you could break the rules. These days there are apps and many web sites that do the circle of fifths. I would suggest that Swingbabymix look in to that, he will get an awful lot of benefit and insight very quickly.

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