I have always had doubts about the Normalize Renders setting. Discuss today.
After testing, I found that if Normalize Renders is checked in the settings, the sound is around -6db. If you do not check Normalize Renders, the sound is around -12.
I have read an article that says that recording each track is close to -6. If it is far away from -6, Normalize Renders is needed. So for BIAB, is it right to check Normalize Renders? If you do not check Normalize Renders, the sound is too low, and you need to use a limiter and compressor to improve the sound. This actually increases the difficulty.
my question is:
First: how do you usually do it. In order to sing and record a song quickly, do you just check Normalize Renders directly? It won't break the sound anyway.
Second: Renger Flat mix is usually unchecked, right? (Check it and there will be no EQ, the accompaniment is muddy)
This is a video I recorded. Remove the suffix .mp3
For my needs I set everything to flat, dry, centred mix. Then export with the “Normalised” option set. I find if I pull all the tracks into my DAW (Reaper) to mix and “master” the individual tracks are too hot so the first step I perform in Reaper is to set (normalise) all tracks to -12dB. This gives me enough head room to mix and master without the end result being too hot. This avoids clipping and allows me to set the levels I want easily.
It also allows me to be in control of panning and to add reverb or whatever to my needs.
My thoughts but then my end product is not necessarily exactly what BIAB delivers. I tend to use BIAB to design and generate the parts and use other tools I’m more comfortable with to manipulate and shape the tracks. I find setting volume or panning automation or tempo adjustments or automated control of plugins far simpler in a DAW where it is a natural part of the tool.
My thoughts
Tony
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I think there's a setting to normalize everything automatically. I don't find there's a need to normalize the exports. They generally come out rather healthy to start.
Normalizing just to normalize, because you can.... I'm not a fan of that. Never forget that normalizing bumps everything up by the same percentage. So not only do you get more robust wave forms, you also get a more robust noise floor that perhaps now, you can hear. Add that noise floor from half a dozen tracks and suddenly you have a problem.
Normalize if you need to.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
First: how do you usually do it. In order to sing and record a song quickly, do you just check Normalize Renders directly? It won't break the sound anyway.
While this may not be the answer you are looking for, I always normalize outside of BiaB (or any other music program for that matter). My go-to for Normalization is Audacity.
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While this may not be the answer you are looking for, I always normalize outside of BiaB (or any other music program for that matter). My go-to for Normalization is Audacity.
If I don't use Normalize Renders.
Then each track is very low sound, I need to hang a waves L1 limiter per track.
What I don’t get is if you are lifting each track to somewhere near 0dB how you can have your mix at a level that allows headroom for “mastering”. Most things I’ve read or studied seem to suggest each track at somewhere between -12dB to -18dB giving about -6dB when all tracks are combined which is reasonable headroom for “mastering”.
I could be wrong but that is how I understood it.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/07/2208:05 PM.
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Good point. In my mix I allow a headroom for each track so that I can always achieve somewhere -6db and -3db in the final mix. This is usually ample to get the final mix where I need it.
Remember, the decibel measurement is a logarithmic, not linear scale.
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i've never found a problem with BIAB levels but then i mix and edit in RB. very occasionally midi tracks are a little low but then that's easily corrected. normalising tracks before a mix seems a little counter intuitive as Teunis says - unless you normalise the track and then lower the volume in the DAW mix. using a limiter on individual tracks to achieve the output shown because they are too quiet also seems odd - if that's what the OP is doing.
how is the OP rendering tracks to wav? wouldn't imagine there's much that could go wrong but it's possible
What I don’t get is if you are lifting each track to somewhere near 0dB how you can have your mix at a level that allows headroom for “mastering”. Most things I’ve read or studied seem to suggest each track at somewhere between -12dB to -18dB giving about -6dB when all tracks are combined which is reasonable headroom for “mastering”.
I could be wrong but that is how I understood it.
Tony
I'm thinking about a question, don't know if it's right or not. If the volume is too low, it is necessary to increase the volume, just like the resolution of a picture is increased, it will definitely become unclear. If the output volume is high, I don't need to deliberately make the sound louder, or even reduce it a bit, so that the sound is clear?
It is a matter of just how loud. As I understand it if you have your individual tracks at about -12dB and you have say 6 or 7 individual tracks at the output buss you’ll have somewhere close to -6dB. This will give you a nice place to start working on the final for the track. You can easily lift up from the -6dB and maintain nice dynamics. If you start too hot say -1dB at the output you will most likely be in a position where limiting and or heavy compression is required in order to avoid clipping thereby losing the dynamics of your song. This may not be an issue depending on your style of music. However for most shall we say sweet music or orchestral music dynamics are where it’s at.
The other thing about dynamics, say you’re looking at setting something to -14LUFS to go on a WEB site. If the song is overly compressed it will most likely not sound as musical or loud as a song that has very varied dynamics. Where things are lower (in the dynamics) they also lower the overall LUFS.
Grab a rock type style for a song compress the heck out of it. Then grab a nice country lay back and really let the dynamics happen. Now set them to the same LUFS (or maybe convert to MP3 and run through MP3Gain) ensure they are the same. You’ll notice the beautiful melodic dynamic country song will sound louder. (Well at least that’s what I’ve found)
Mathematically it even makes sense when you look at it.
Just some thoughts. The reason for the long windedness is this comes up a lot. I’ll probably strike up some differences of opinion but there it is.
Tony
PS. Check the various plugins you use some of them are optimised to have an input of -18dB or there about. Same thing if the input is too hot the plugin cannot perform optimally.
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For my needs I set everything to flat, dry, centred mix. Then export with the “Normalised” option set. I find if I pull all the tracks into my DAW (Reaper) to mix and “master” the individual tracks are too hot so the first step I perform in Reaper is to set (normalise) all tracks to -12dB. This gives me enough head room to mix and master without the end result being too hot. This avoids clipping and allows me to set the levels I want easily.
Tony
Hi I am using BIAB VST standalone output. Because of the problem of English communication, can you tell me what you said, how you set it up, and let me see it directly through the screenshot of the picture. That way I will understand what you mean. Thank you so much.
... export with the “Normalised” option set...in Reaper.. set (normalise) all tracks to -12dB. This gives me enough head room to mix and master without the end result being too hot. This avoids clipping and allows me to set the levels I want easily. Tony
To make things louder to make them less so. The default 90 of 100 level used in the BIAB mixer is a good guide...there's plenty of level in the exported tracks and they sit comfortably between -12 & -18 in Reaper which means they are almost "optimum". Adding gain, as needed, in a DAW doesn't, usually, add much perceptible level to the noise floor.
Normalizing makes the loudest bits as loud as they can go, (or as quiet - setting dependant of course), and brings everything else up with them. Compression temporarily knocks the top of selected loud parts and brings the loudest and quietest closer to each other, (reduces dynamic range). it can do it aggressively - high ration or gently - low ratio. Limiting sets a maximum loudness and aggressively stops anything passing that point - often with come of the "make up gain" of a compressor added to it so that everything below the max level is raised towards it...or you could think of it as pushing everything way louder and then cutting things off that pass the 'limit" when it sees that the loudest and quietest will be quite close to each other, (brick walling).
Any audio can cause clipping in a VST/plug in...normalized and upward limited are more likely to. You probably won't hear that clipping but it may appear further down the chain as things are stacked, added or ramped.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
From Gear Space: WAVES L1 Ultramaximizer "like most of Waves' products it's simple to use. It also has virtually no sound and in about two seconds you can pretty cleanly crank the volume of a mix to ridiculous levels. It is probably one of the most dangerous pieces of software to hit the audio production community, ever."
In other words not to be used when you've not a good set of ears, can't tell when it's gone wrong or just want everything LOUD. It's also a decade old.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Ok, I do things a bit different because I find it easier to use the Stand Alone BIAB then export the files I want. I might also generate files using other programs. For example, I might use a MIDI file in Cakewalk to to generate a bit. I then render files (tracks) to Audio. Usually .wav. I then pull all the tracks into Reaper and use an SWS extension action "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value..." and set the value to -12dB.
This gives me a starting point where all tracks are the same. Everything is the same level everything is set to the centre. I then put Izotope Relay or Neutron on each track (once again a one button exercise). Then I use Izotope Visual Mixer to get a rough layout. This includes levels, position and instrument width. Not that you need to use Izotope there are many methods to do the same. For example in Reaper one could set the pan to Dual Pan and create width on stereo tracks this way with Izotope is is very easy to see it all.
It is possible to level all tracks using the gain options or event volume. I just find it a lot easier to have a place to start. Tracks usually get adjusted away from the point the -12db is simply a place to start. Having all stereo tracks place to the centre before importing the tracks avoids having to worry about where tracks are before I mix. In my opinion the is no greater time waster than a track you just cant seem to set right in the mix only to find it is an imported stereo track panned to the opposite side to where you want it. When it comes to mixing be the control freak - it is your mix. Don't be afraid to try stuff - the worst that could happen is you'll learn something.
Everyone has the correct method - a chap once advised me when playing golf don't listen to everybody's advice you'll just get confused. I asked him does that include your advice.
Hope this makes sense Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/20/2206:51 PM.
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
To each his own Tony, it certainly works for you. After exporting and importing I start in mono with all faders at 0 and do a quick level tweak. The same but different. From there I "begin". From then on it's different becasue I usually record my own playing and preamps to get between -18 & -12. I was just making sure the questioner understood that norm'ing can be problematic.
Last edited by rayc; 01/20/2208:09 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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