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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 13
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 13 |
Dear Everyone.
Trying to get the hang of mixing the music I write (I only can use MIDI, I'm disabled!) And I'm watching YouTube videos and getting a ton of confusing messages from them - there might be other dumbass questions - this one's reverb. Right.
First guy says 'Reverb pushes stuff back in a mix'. So I try using reverb to do that and it works a treat. Great. BUT....
Second guy. "Reverb is to make everything sound like it's in the same room". So I put the same reverb on everything so it sounds like it's in the same room. Yes that works - but if I put more reverb on some things to push them back, like the first guy said, then they're not in the same room any more, are they, cos they've got different reverb on!
Third guy. "Choose reverb CAREFULLY so it's appropriate for the instrument or sound you're using." So I do, and it sounds nice, BUT - as I'm now using different carefully-chosen reverbs for instruments in the SAME TRACK, surely each one's now in its own room and none of them are being pushed any farther back than anything else - or being pushed farther back than I want them to sound, even though the reverb on them sounds great!
Please, how do I reconcile the 3 different approaches? If each approach is for a different overall situation, when do I use which?
I get this kinda thing all the time when trying to learn using YouTube vids, hence there'll probably be other, equally dumbass questions turning up at some point (you have been warned!)
Basically I start off confused dot com, watch a bunch of videos and end up SUPREMELY confused dot com - and that's on anything to do with mixing! But reverb's a good place to start.
Hoping someone chooses to answer.
Yours respectfully
Chris.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Apr 2009
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So... if you ask 100 people that question you will get 101 different answers. None of them are totally correct and none of them are totally wrong.
What I do: I use a little reverb as I can. It's like salt... you don't need a lot. If you can hear it clearly, you're probably using way too much. So I keep most of my tracks dry and use reverb sparingly in the busses. I tend to get better results when I use one reverb in the master output buss in my DAW. That puts everything in the same sonic space.
There are times when I do however, put a different reverb on the vocal buss or on the guitar buss, but each song project is it's own unique creation. So while I have certain things that I tend to do, I don't always adhere to the "rules" I have for myself.
Never use reverb to try to hide a bad vocal performance. It really doesn't work and ruins the song more than just the bad vocals will.
Just remember that reverb is cumulative.... a little bit here, a little bit there and by the final mix down you have a wet soggy mess of reverb all over the place. Less is more when dealing with most things and this is no exception. In most DAWs, you can turn off the effects with a click.... try doing that during the playback to compare the wet/dry and move forwards accordingly.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 06/20/22 03:23 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Like Herb said there are no exact answers and how much reverb you use depends on the song and your preference. For instance a new age or ambient song may use lots of reverb while a rock or funk song only a little or no reverb. Thus each song is totally different when it comes to reverb.
I try to use the same reverb for a song with the lead guitar as a possible exception; some guitar amps have a spring reverb so I may put one on said guitar.
I very rarely put reverb on a bass line or bass drum as that can muddy up your mix.
I always put some reverb on horns and orchestra strings as it adds realism IMHO.
I also use MIDI for all of my songs but I never use MIDI reverb, CC91, actually I rarely use any MIDI CC effects.
So it would be helpful if you listed the DAW and reverb effects(s) you are using and maybe the genre of the song. Also you could post your finished song in the showcase forum and ask for recommendations.
I hope this helps and if I can be of further assistance fell free to contact me via a PM.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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You've asked a very good question.
One way to learn about reverb is to revisit past mixes. When you listen to a past mix how does the reverb sound? What changes does the reverb need?
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Please, how do I reconcile the 3 different approaches? If each approach is for a different overall situation, when do I use which?
I get this kinda thing all the time when trying to learn using YouTube vids, hence there'll probably be other, equally dumbass questions turning up at some point (you have been warned!)
Basically I start off confused dot com, watch a bunch of videos and end up SUPREMELY confused dot com - and that's on anything to do with mixing! But reverb's a good place to start.
Hoping someone chooses to answer.
Yours respectfully
Chris.
Use your ears.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,986
Expert
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Joined: Sep 2001
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if you are only using midi and you are using BIAB styles, PG Music has already done a certain amount of EQ, balancing and applying reverb to the tracks within the style.
and, noting what Mario says above, they will be using the reverb built into the synth you are using so adding another reverb to tracks already using midi reverb with an 'outboard' reverb fx might make for some odd sounds. sometimes the reverb isn't obvious on BIAB tracks but it's there nevertheless.
some more details as Mario suggests might help.
there are other fx that pull instruments forward etc - eq for example - as our ears give different 'weight' to certain frequencies.
so why are you using reverb? it's not the most logical way to push or pull tracks.
start with you basic mix as it is. does it already have reverb on the midi tracks courtesy of PG Music?
and are you using BIAB or RB? what are you recording fresh? vocals will automatically be audio and need reverb - let your ears guide you. but if you are recording midi tracks, you can use the same midi reverb as the other tracks as your synth has reverb built in although i take Mario's point that he doesn't like midi reverb.
it's certainly not a dumbass question but i'm not surprised the various internet 'experts' have left you confused.
experiment - see what sounds good to you. and if you don't need it don't use it. and that goes for all fx - only use what you need to create the sound you want. the temptation is to use everything you've got just because you've got it.
post a track and get some advice - the only dumbass questions are the ones you don't ask.
Last edited by Bob Calver; 06/20/22 11:29 AM.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Apr 2016
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Yes, yes, yes, no, no etc. Reverb is like salt it's sooooooo good that applying more seems n sounds good until it's too much. I was a reverb junkie...I'm in recovery. There're rules n rules n rules added to variations and exceptions as usual. For me... If using BIAB tracks in another DAW render them from BIAB without reverb...it's REALLY hard to match the BIAB reverb in a DAW and the most common issues I hear in BIAB user songs is, besides sibilant sounds, mismatched reverb - usually the band sounding like it's in a hall and the vocal sounding like it's in a bedroom. BIAb uses reverb quite a bit becasue it blenss things nicely and covers a lot of very, very minor issues. I use a reverb only track...I select my reverb and place an instance of it on a single track... then I "send" other tracks to that - this means that everything with reverb will have the same type/instance and "be in the same room". The reverb sends it's signal to the stereo/master bus. The amount of "send" to the reverb determines how much reverb on a given instrument. I usually send a tiny bit of my guitar bus to the reverb, a little bit more of my vocal bus, some from the solo instrument and, occasionally, the snare drum, (though that might be the rare occasion of using a different reverb to achieve A sound that defines a style etc). As well as sending the instrument to it's group bus of the stereo/master bus I send a little of it to the reverb track and pull down that "send" until I can JUST hear it then pull it back a tiny bit more. Instrument with strong bottom ends shouldn't go to the reverb as this causes muddying and blurring....this can be addressed with EQ but is difficult and complicates everything else. Thus no bass guitar, bass synth, kick drum & Toms. Reverb can move an instrument "back" as the more reverb the bigger the ROOM and the further into the room that instrument will seem BUT too much brings the instrument forward again. Reducing the level of the instrument in the track achieves a similar effect but not as lushly Think of the reverb as being a band in a hall with the sound bouncing off the back wall and sides and the sources as being you right in front of the band with it playing too loud for you to hear anything else. If you move slowly back from the band you'll probably hear the entire band and some of the reverberations in a balance that sounds pleasant. Too far back and things blurr, too far forward and it's too in your face. Mind you...my use of reverb is, generally, to capture a rock band sound. Clever and artistic use of reverb is wonderful - I can't do it. Many singers love reverb in the same way many guitarist love distortion - both get a sense of safety by the impression, false, that it cover for inadequacies. Using a send to reverb set up is something I was taught after years of placing reverbs on each track, another on the stereo bus and many of them different. Using the send had as great an impact on my mixes as getting semi decent monitors. Delay gives the sense of a BIGGER space that has distinct "echoes" with the source in the middle. This sounds great on some instruments but the big issue is matching the delay to the tempo of the rhythm instruments. U2 used HEAPS of delay on guitar and that guitar sound established the tempo & rhythm for the songs. Caveat...this is my view and the way I operate. It's completely WRONG for others but right for me at the moment. Have a listen to the stuff of people giving opinions on any forum, hear what they do to get a better idea of what, how and whether, or not, it works. My most recent track, in the User Showcase, has, for me, quite a bit of reverb as it suits the genre and my aim for the song. As I was using a stereo drum track from BIAB there's NO reverb on the kit, lots on the Mellotron & eBow, heaps on the lead guitar, a little on the vocal, (with delay here and there for exoticness), etc. ALL the reverbs sends are through a single instance of Ambience on it's default setting. THIS ONE
Last edited by rayc; 06/20/22 08:55 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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First guy says 'Reverb pushes stuff back in a mix'. So I try using reverb to do that and it works a treat. If by "pushing stuff back" you mean making the particular part of the performance sound further away, then there's another factor to consider. Low frequency sounds disperse close to omnidirectionally, so reduce in intensity as approximately the cube root of the distance. High frequency sounds radiate closer to conical, so tend to reduce at approximately the square root of the distance. We can hear this clearly in many duets between a popular-music singer and an operatic singer. Very often the former sounds close and the latter sounds distant, because, of necessity, they were recorded at different distances from the microphone. In the mix, the relative volumes of the singers was adjusted, but no so much the spectrum. Try using some cut in the lower frequencies as part of the "pushing to the back". That should help to get the audible perspective better and allow you to then use reverb to make the performances sound in the same room. None of these things are perfect.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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First Guy is correct. Example: Reverb on the lead singer only will cause you to go nuts trying to eq a mix that cannot be saved. Drowning a lead guitar in reverb can be a very creative use, OTOH.
Listen to White Rabbit.
Unless the idea is to create an acoustic space (something I do all the time), you are safe ignoring Second and Third Guys. Be creative but do pay attention to First Guy.
Around 60% of my mixes have reverb on the Master only. Again, I'm normally creating an acoustic space.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
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Highpassing the reverb return helps clean up the mud.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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