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#720642 - 06/13/22 10:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support?
Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
ColinMc1 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
Does the new version of BIAB support Apple silicon natively? There is no reference to it in either the feature & video overviews?


Edited by ColinMc1 (06/13/22 10:22 PM)
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#720679 - 06/14/22 09:31 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 10/19/20
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Chantelle - PG Music Offline
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If you are using a Mac with an ARM processor then it will need Rosetta to run.
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#720685 - 06/14/22 09:58 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 12/30/09
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Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
ColinMc1 Offline
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Thx Chantelle.

Are there any plans / timelines to support Mac ARM processors natively?
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#720775 - 06/14/22 02:38 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
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Jerry - PG Music Offline
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Hello ColinMc1,

We currently don't have a timeline for native support on ARM processors.
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#720874 - 06/15/22 02:14 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
ColinMc1 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
Thx Jerry,

If it is possible / easier, the preference would be to have native support for the VST version of BIAB to enable to run DAW's natively - that would be great. BIAB is now one of the few remaining plug-ins that require to run my DAW (Cubase Pro 12) under Rosetta vs native.

The standalone BIAB programe works perfectly fine under Rosetta and I am good with that.



Edited by ColinMc1 (06/15/22 02:19 AM)
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#721006 - 06/15/22 02:32 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: Jerry - PG Music]
Registered: 01/29/18
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ZUrlocker Offline
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Loc: Michigan
I'm disappointed with the lack of progress or even news about a future M1 native version that does not require Rosetta. I'm a longtime customer, but I'm not buying again until there's a native M1 version.

I understand how hard it is for a small company with an aged code base to migrate to a new approach. My suspicion is it will never happen because the code base and compiler are so ancient. At some point, Apple will stop supporting Rosetta and then what?
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#721032 - 06/15/22 04:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
Band-in-a-a box runs great and fast on Silicon M1 (and x86).

Here’s why…

The first time the BiaB x86 program is run in a silicon machine, Rosetta 2 does a one-time translation to Silicon. So the first run takes about 5 seconds longer than normal to get started. But on subsequent runs, it runs using the translated silicon code and boots up and runs very fast . A Band-in-a-Box.aot file is created (hidden) in the system which is the “ahead of time” translation file. And that’s what runs every time, not the x64 program app . This means there isn’t emulation running when you are using the program, since it using the previously translated aot app. This is all behind the scenes and it happens to all kinds of programs including Microsoft x86 “Office” programs run on a Silicon m1. Apple describes their process here https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/about-the-rosetta-translation-environment

Apple hasn’t said they will ever kill Rosetta 2. Why would they? It translates programs to run on Silicon, and it works great.
Apple could kill or change a lot of things that would make BiaB stop working (apple installer, core audio, SU plugins, graphics, QuickTime, midi support). We’ve dealt with those successfully for 32 years, and plan to continue that way. For example, the change to Catalina on x86 years ago broke lots of things in BiaB (and many programs) that we needed to fix (and did). For example, Apple installer changed all kinds of things regarding installing programs to drives other than system drive - that would stop even a silicon native program from installing if it was using old methods.

btw) we are looking into getting the translation to Silicon done during installation, so that the very first run on Silicon doesn’t have a delay.
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#721057 - 06/15/22 06:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 12/05/11
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Janice & Bud Offline
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That was very informative - particularly given I’m close to purchasing a new Mac.

Thanks!

Bud
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#721068 - 06/15/22 07:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
> That was very informative - particularly given I’m close to purchasing a new Mac.

Bud,
Yes, you’ll love the new Macs for many reasons, and BiaB works great on them too.
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#721118 - 06/16/22 06:51 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 16
Loc: Michigan
ZUrlocker Offline
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Posts: 16
Loc: Michigan
Thank you for the details.
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#721132 - 06/16/22 08:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 01/24/10
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mrgeeze Offline
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Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 491
Loc: Sonoran Desert
Thanks for the information. More than I knew when I started


However, the extra layer (rosetta) of translation is clearly an inefficiency and destined to produce headaches both for developers and users. We've seen these kind of things time and time again over the decades.

IMO,
An obvious reason to stop supporting x86 translation is Apple makes the M1 chip. Apple wants users to upgrade to M hardware. It makes them more $$$. It makes development easier. It also stops supporting a competitor. Soon there will be no Apple hardware running Intel chips. RIP Rosetta shortly thereafter.

Add me to the list of those long time users who feel that a native M version of BIAB is an important criteria to purchase future upgrades.

Disappointing.


Edited by mrgeeze (06/16/22 08:57 AM)
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#721165 - 06/16/22 11:46 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
Band-in-a-Box 2022 Mac runs 50% faster on typical Silicon M1 vs typical Intel Macs.
There is no degradation or slow down, it runs faster. That includes bootup, generating and rendering songs.
We will post some benchmarks in a few days. But the fastest and best experience for Band-in-a-Box on a Mac is on the Silicon M1 chips.
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#721992 - 06/23/22 10:28 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 02/23/21
Posts: 1
PG3 Offline
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Registered: 02/23/21
Posts: 1
Add me to the list of users disappointed that there are no current plans to provide Native Apple Silicon Support for BIAB. I have begun the process of dumping software vendors who do not seem interested in providing Native Apple Silicon Support (Native Instruments and Waves being a couple of them). I still haven't decided if I am going to upgrade to BIAB 2022 as I was under the impression from earlier discussions with PG Music customer service that Native Apple Silicon Support was going to be included in the upgrade. Given that the attitude seems to be that it runs "good enough" under Rosetta I do not get a good feeling that we will ever see a Native Apple Silicon version. If I have misinterpreted the stance by PG Music please let me know.

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#722223 - Yesterday at 04:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: BIAB 2022 Mac - Native Apple Silicon Support? [Re: ColinMc1]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14875
> Add me to the list of users disappointed that there are no current plans to provide Native Apple Silicon Support for BIAB.

I expect that we will have a silicon native version sometime in the future, especially as the share of Macs with M1 chips rises. The M1 machines have been around for less than 2 years now. It’s not simply a matter of recompiling, all of the various tools we use to make the programs also need to get updated, which takes time.

But the “good news” in the silicon/m1 story is happening right now that the programs like Band-in-a-Box 2022 on Silicon/M1 already speed up 50% compared to running with intel Macs..
========
fwiw) For those interested, for many programs, there isn’t much (if any) speed improvements of native programs vs Rosetta programs. Both the Rosetta-run programs and the native ones get about the same huge speed boost on the M1 machines , as you can see below….

Have a look at this YouTube review where a music program is cpu/performance tested (Rosetta vs native M1). The tester went in assuming native would be better performance and less cpu usage, but that’s not what he found. https://youtu.be/o0-j7ovw4Q8?t=410 Of course the performance was fantastic on both the Rosetta and native versions - the tester just didn’t find that the performance of the native one was better than the Rosetta..

And there’s a reason for this. As I explained above - Band-in-a-Box already runs 50% faster on M1 machines than Intel. Because Rosetta is not emulating. It does a one time translation of the program from x86 instructions to M1 silicon (arm) . From then on , the program is always running using the translation. So would BiaB run much faster if it was native on a M1 - the answer would be probably ‘no‘ based on the results in tests of similar programs. Note that some graphics intensive programs like Photoshop do speed up , because they rewrite routines specific parts of the program for GPU and CPU M1/arm Not many companies have the resources to do that, and BiaB wouldn’t benefit as it isn’t graphics/cpu intensive to begin with.
=====
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