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I'd be very interested if anyone has tips for using the Pitch Bend Wheel to do guitar note bends using Pitch Bend (or another MIDI CC) on a MIDI keyboard. I've spent a fair amount of time trying to tweak the settings on the controller, but no matter what I try, the sound bends in a very awkward manner, more like a saw bend sound than a guitar string bend.
I'm figuring there are two main possibilities: (1) I'm doing it wrong (most likely) or (2) The Mod Wheel on my MIDI keyboard is crummy. The model is a M-Audio Code 49, with the latest firmware.
Any brief tips or advice would be most appreciated.
[Edit /]
Found a review that said the mod-wheel has issues on this model. Would an expression pedal work for controlling pitch bend?
[/]
Last edited by EdZ314; 06/20/20 03:50 PM. Reason: Corrected typo
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Hi Ed,
More information would be helpful such as what sound source are you using. So I am going into this blind but here is what I suggest.
You don't use the Mod wheel (CC1), you use the pitch bend wheel. I hope that is what you are using and not the Mod Wheel. If you can set the range you want to pitch bend to be in your software, usually a semitone or whole tone will do. Set the pitch bend wheel to zero, all the way down, play the note then quickly raise the wheel to the mid point. Subtle moves of the wheel after reaching the mid point will add a little vibrato to the note, something most guitarist do after a bend.
I hope this works and good luck.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Thanks Mario. Yes - Pitch Bend wheel (corrected in edit). I did try changing the range - it's a semitone (up or down) by default, but it still sounded wonky. Maybe use an expression pedal? Seems like my Pitch Wheel has a bad nonlinear response on it, especially near the center.
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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Thanks Mario. Yes - Pitch Bend wheel (corrected in edit). I did try changing the range - it's a semitone (up or down) by default, but it still sounded wonky. Maybe use an expression pedal? Seems like my Pitch Wheel has a bad nonlinear response on it, especially near the center. Ed, what is your MIDI note resolution? If it is say 120 PPQ (parts per quarter note) then it could sound "wonky". If it is 960 or more then it should not sound "wonky". Maybe you should describe what sounds wonky means. Is it a zipper type sound (not a smooth transition) or something else?
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Let's get some things set first: 1. You do have your pitch bend controller set for only 2 semitones up/down correct? Anything more than this and you are going to have serious problems because it's pretty hard and uncommon for string bending with fingers to go more than that. David Gilmour will bend farther than that 2. most people that can do realistic guitar bends on keyboards are fairly accomplished electric guitar players. It's kind of a second nature thing and takes some time to get close to making it sound right. Why? Pitch bending a string is not a linear thing from a force/pitch bend stand point. The last bit of bend takes A LOT of force compared to the onset. This is one of those things that you learn by doing and doing and doing and doing. 3. I find that I simply cannot do a guitar-like pitch bend with a joystick. I have to have a pitch bend wheel. This has kept me out of the Roland and Korg markets for a very long time. Roland, in the past couple of years has put pitch bend and mod wheels on at least one model. What is your control, wheel or stick? 4. Even though you set your pitch bend range for 2 semitones, a whole bunch of guitar note bends don't go all that way, and it's the approach to the full 2 where the magic is. 5. A bunch of guitar bending is the somewhat seamless transition from bend to vibrato, another reason I find it almost impossible to do with a joystick, particularly Roland sticks which have so little travel in the vertical axis and it's hard to maintain a steady bend and add vibrato to it with such limited travel. Here's one I just recorded on a synth patch that is the default patch in my Casio XW-P1. If I can figure out how to export the midi, I can try to send it to you. You'll hear and see that alot of the bends are less than 2 semitones and in between 1 and 2 and sometimes not even one semitone. https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/pitch-bend-example
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I found it better after using the pitch bend to then go in and edit the CC in a piano roll view. That way it is easy to adjust both the timing and amount of bend. We that’s how I do it. Tony Let's get some things set first: 1. You do have your pitch bend controller set for only 2 semitones up/down correct? Anything more than this and you are going to have serious problems because it's pretty hard and uncommon for string bending with fingers to go more than that. David Gilmour will bend farther than that 2. most people that can do realistic guitar bends on keyboards are fairly accomplished electric guitar players. It's kind of a second nature thing and takes some time to get close to making it sound right. Why? Pitch bending a string is not a linear thing from a force/pitch bend stand point. The last bit of bend takes A LOT of force compared to the onset. This is one of those things that you learn by doing and doing and doing and doing. 3. I find that I simply cannot do a guitar-like pitch bend with a joystick. I have to have a pitch bend wheel. This has kept me out of the Roland and Korg markets for a very long time. Roland, in the past couple of years has put pitch bend and mod wheels on at least one model. What is your control, wheel or stick? 4. Even though you set your pitch bend range for 2 semitones, a whole bunch of guitar note bends don't go all that way, and it's the approach to the full 2 where the magic is. 5. A bunch of guitar bending is the somewhat seamless transition from bend to vibrato, another reason I find it almost impossible to do with a joystick, particularly Roland sticks which have so little travel in the vertical axis and it's hard to maintain a steady bend and add vibrato to it with such limited travel. Here's one I just recorded on a synth patch that is the default patch in my Casio XW-P1. If I can figure out how to export the midi, I can try to send it to you. You'll hear and see that alot of the bends are less than 2 semitones and in between 1 and 2 and sometimes not even one semitone. https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/pitch-bend-example
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not that i'm an expert but i did it by pressing the keyboard note i wanted the bend to end up at with the pitchbend wheel already pulled down so releasing it took me to the pitch of the final note. as a guitarist my natural inclination was to press the start note and bend up. so for a whole note bend up to C i'd press Bb and bend up. trouble is i didn't always hit C correctly. it's easier to start with pressing C with the wheel held down and return to the detente position. my pitch bend wheel is spring loaded so there's no problem of getting the movement smooth. then (showing off probably!) a tiny touch of modulation mirrors the finger vibrato a guitarist gets after a bend.
by the way i've always envied guitarists that can do that for real - bend the note then rock the bending finger to produce a vibrato. then i saw jeff beck do it by bending the note up then using the whammy bar on his strat and if its good enough for him...............
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Bob beat me to the punch, I was going to suggest getting a whammy bar the controller 
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Thanks gents for the excellent info. I'll just throw the all of the info into this reply: > Keyboard is an M-Audio Code 49 with latest firmware > For sample below, used Kontakt Player - Jazz Guitar, with PG Dynamics effect. > MIDI note resolution - not able to find it in the docs or manufacturer side. > MIDI Pitch bend wheel - Range set from 0-127. The range is approx. but not exactly +1/-1 semitone at the two limits. I've tried changing the range but that forces the tone bend into too narrow a range (in my experiments). > I think Bob Calver has an interesting idea - it does seem to be easier to bend from the limits back down to the center detent. I will definitely try that. A bit of that is in the sample. > The bends recorded here were primarily upward, since I figured most of the bends on the guitar strings will be moving the note up. > Warning: This sounds really bad but I was trying to demonstrate the different bend actions when I moved the wheel in different ways. No matter what I try, there seems to be a wonkiness in the bend response. If I try to move it really fast, and keep it near the max and stay away from the middle, it seems less wonky. > I play guitar a little bit, so I have some direct experience with bending on an acoustic. > I know there is a control for Pitch Bend Sensitivity(RPN) on my controller, but it's not clear to me how it would be set or how it would work. I've tried adjusting it with no noticeable effect. Guitar Bend Sample - Jazz Guitar
Ed Z Soundcloud profile https://soundcloud.com/user-415064494BIAB user since 2019 iPad Mini, Garageband for iOS, BIAB for Windows 2020 UltraPAK, Xtra Styles packs 6-9, Windows 10 Lenovo PC, Kontakt Player, SpitFire LABS, SampleTank 4 CS, some Soundfonts
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I usually adjust this in a DAW using the Piano Roll view. In Cakewalk for example it comes in and is addressed as Wheel under the MIDI Event Type. In Reaper it is found as Pitch in the same area if my memory serves me correctly.
Simply record then go to the piano roll select the area and adjust to taste.
Tony
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Mario, I find your comment about MIDI note resolution and PPQ very interesting. Do these settings also effect "live" parts that you are playing or is this for parts that are being recorded into BIAB / RB or other DAW's?
Jeff
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as for getting the bend movement smooth, i just release the pitch bend wheel and let the spring do the move in case i hadn't made that clear. how long you hang on to the note with the pitch wheel down affects the illusion of the bend. if the spring is too fast for you gently hold it back but at least you won't overshoot the end desired pitch.
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Mario, I find your comment about MIDI note resolution and PPQ very interesting. Do these settings also effect "live" parts that you are playing or is this for parts that are being recorded into BIAB / RB or other DAW's?
Jeff Hi Jeff, It is for both live and recorded parts. If your PPQ is 120 then an 8th note is 60, a 16th is 30, etc. If your PPQ is 980 then an 8th note is 490, a 16th is 245, etc. That is a huge difference. You will get a more realistic sounding parts with higher PPQs. This is why a lot of BiaB MIDI tracks are static and the supermidi tracks, the non-quantized ones, sound better. The higher the PPQ the more "feel" you get.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Do you like acoustic guitars?
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It's extremely difficult to get any midi guitar to sound right normally let alone trying to do bends. This is especially true if it is an upfront instrument vs being buried in the mix. Not that it's impossible..... but to do it... You have to be thinking musically like a guitar player would be thinking. You have to understand all the inherent articulations and noises that are part of the performance. Things such as pick and finger noise, string squeaks, and other noises that a guitar player doesn't really create or notice intentionally but is nonetheless there in the performance. Then, the actual bend itself. The bend is dependent on the thickness gauge of the strings and a few other things. On my electric guitar, I can and often bend more than a complete full step, but on the acoustic, it might not even be a half step bend. Using some of the newer sampled guitar synths, you can get pretty close to fooling non-guitarists. And someone who is really good with the synth can make guitarists wonder. Especially with the Real Strat and the Real Guitar synth. https://www.musiclab.com/products/realguitar/info.htmlListen to the samples they provide. To get really good results, one should naturally be fairly familiar and proficient on the keyboard. AND.... have a good understanding of guitar parts from a guitarist's POV.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 07/13/22 07:57 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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If you really want realistic guitar bends and vibrato then you may have to purchase software that has those features available via keyswitches of velocity. I prefer the velocity method. Indiginus has very realistic guitars. I have the lap guitar and it is fantastic. They also have acoustic and electric guitars using the velocity method. BUT be aware they need the FULL version of Kontakt. https://www.indiginus.com/https://www.indiginus.com/generation-electric-guitarhttps://www.indiginus.com/renaxxance-nylon-string-guitarPS - I just found this site on how to use pitch bend on guitar patches and this may be all you need:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ce4_FjEDoThis is so good I DLed for my own use.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Nice video Mario.... notice that the guitar sample is fairly good to start with. And yep.... there's a whole skill set around playing it correctly and accurately. You can't think about it.... just like playing a real guitar... it simply has to happen automatically and without much forethought.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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That was a highly useful video.
It shows exactly why what I was trying doesn't sound right and a great way to make it sound right.
I must see if it also works better with Uilleann pipes, which I also find difficult.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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