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I was struck by these two bits from JOM's "M.2 and PCIE" thread: Fortunately, if doing audio, you don’t need a very fast computer. Indeed. I regularly use a 10-year old laptop that has a 2nd gen i5, 16gb of ram, and a 500gb Sata SSD. No problems whatsoever. ... another thread about whether Core-i9s were worth the extra, and my own relatively modest machines (the most powerful is an i5-7400 with 8GB of RAM and conventional hard drives. And I wondered what really are the best optimisations. There are lots of layers to the question, which probably makes the answers to the question many and varied, and dependent upon what software is in use and what's being done, like off-line production or live-performance. My thinking goes like this: Any application using samples should, whilst feasible, be loading those samples into RAM, so a generous amount of RAM seems pretty much de rigueur. CPU power is power is almost certainly not an issue. I/O throughput from bulk storage might be of interest, though. Any application using modelling to create the sounds will have a modest RAM footprint, but will want a generous amount of CPU. Applications that do extensive signal processing, ditto. As a general rule, more CPU-cores should be beneficial, though the applications must use them sensibly to get benefit. I/O bottlenecks to the CPUs and to the real world may still be a major bottleneck on real throughput. In these days of mixed core types, e.g., performance-oriented and efficiency-oriented, which type(s) are the most valuable for audio? Is overclocking/turbo-mode/whatever really of value for audio, or does it really only increase the power consumption, heat and fan noise? I suspect the main contribution to performance of SSDs, of whatever type, will be in reducing load time to RAM and probably doesn't have much, if any, beneficial impact on actual audio processing. Latency has numerous factors ... time to digitise and de-digitise, time to transfer data to/from the I/O device(s), number of devices demanding data be moved, including non-audio devices like SSDs, Ethernet, graphics, and the like, time to gain access to a CPU, processing time within the CPU, DMA channels/lanes/streams/whatever-you-call-them. My own main understanding of those things comes much more from work with embedded ARM processors than with x86-derived processors. I imagine that the latter have, for some time, all come with hardware floating-point engines. On an embedded ARM, I would carefully select which core to use for which task and lock the code and data to that core. I imagine the options are rather more limited with PCs if only because the number and type of cores are a moving feast.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Thanks Byron,
The devblogs article is excellent, very informative and useful, though mostly addressing slightly different considerations from mine.
For me personally, less so the Sweetwater article, but that's mostly as I tend to use Linux where possible, rather than Windows, and again addressing different considerations. Most people will use Windows or Mac, though, so it's highly pertinent.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon. one reason i love refurbs soooo much is...if one buys from the right company the refurb comes already OPTIMISED,... boots fast from cold (mine boots into win in a few secs), and comes already free of junk/bloat...with lots of ports (eg usb) ive yet to have even one problem over many many years useing refurbs. nada , zilch probs. crikey , my refurb company i deal with, pre-covid and even let me test a refurb with my music software. and i just point my refurber to various pc optimisation sites. heres another optimisation site ..with vid. https://audient.com/tutorial/optimise-your-windows-pc-for-audio/right now there are a slew of i5/i7 refurbs on the market that come with 1 year warranties, are optimised, and even often include ssd..and support added ssd's.for less than a couple hundred bucks. if someone doesnt want to do a zillion traks with zillion plug ins. frankly if i were looking at pricey i9 retail pc prices , and couldnt diy a pc build i would spend under 2k with a company that specialises in building pc's for recording studios. eg a adk pro audio or studiocat or silent pc...and there are many others. now i'm gonna listen to some songs in the showcase cos , phew...i'm free of family commitments today...lol
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/15/22 08:59 AM.
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Thanks OM,
A useful video on optimising Windows, though I'm primarily interested in what the best tradeoffs are for the hardware.
A refurb is unlikely in my case as I'm planning this for a new very-short 2U rackmount, so I'd end up throwing quite a bit of a refurb machine away. I want as far as possible to avoid high dissipation, to help keep the fans (etc.) quiet. I'd like also, of course, to keep good value for money.
In particular I was interested in the real performance tradeoffs between RAMs, M.2 SSD and SATA SSD. In an ideal world I'd have as much and as fast RAM and M2 PCIE as was possible, but that can make for some very large budget numbers indeed. My gut still tells me that the best place to put the bulk of the money is into the RAM.
Having been looking at that, though, I'm starting to recognise that there are really too many factors to inform a simple choice. I end up also trying to account for DDR4 and DDR5 differences and how many memory slots. Even my default strategy of buying a a modest way below the top is now looking fragile. :-/
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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Remember that if you go out and spend a fortune for the fastest processer available and jammed every RAM slot full that 1 year from now it will be outdated anyway. I bought 2 PCs with i7 when the i7 was the best thing out there. Now they are yesterday's (or last year's) news. So in the longer ranging future, you are chasing your tail no matter what you do.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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... you are chasing your tail no matter what you do. Absolutely! I don't buy the latest, greatest, whatever, machines for precisely that reason. I can manage just fine with 2/3 or 1/2 the performance at 1/3 or 1/4 of the cost. Some years back I replaced an old fileserver. I couldn't even get the local "recycle for the third world" people to take it. Too old and under-powered apparently. It was working just fine for me, but I wanted to reduce the power consumption ... the old machine was a 486 tower with multiple HDDs. The new one was a fanless ITX with one HDD (I back-up to a second machine, off-site). The thing one notices now is things like Core gen 7 through 12, Pentium, Celeron and Atom all available concurrently, not to mention the ever increasing digits after the 'i'. It's all a bit crazy, really. And that's all before one considers AMD, Apple and others. My DMZ and mail machine is a Raspberry Pi and despite doing all the spam and malware rejection, its not even trying -- Load average 0.00, CPU ~ 0.5% not so much "no sweat" as couch potato.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Gordon. (btw i enjoy our exchange of ideas,) From what ive researched so far ive concluded the following for music production. 1..M.2 is a no brainer . uber fast and dirt cheap. Eg 256 gb. I’m getting 2 . 2..Selecting a processor with a single thread passmark score over 3000 is a good idea. In case you havent seen this at passmark, and for any 3rd party reading this… Heres the pass mark table.as of today. (my b’day is next week and my new studio Gadget from amazon just arrived , but my lovely wife wont let me open it…till b’day…lmao.).. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.htmlAs one can see from above the i5 cpu’s prolly offer the best price/performance ratio. my only concern with 12th gen cpu's is reading net articles re'heat'. 3..I think it is important to keep things in perspective..viz my current old i5 refurb normally boots into win (from cold) or biab or realband or reaps in around 4 secs. So i ponder how much am i gonna shave off the 4 secs. And biab stereo mixes that take 40 secs. As to performance diffs tween ddr 4 and 5 , i havent come up with anything definitive.I surmise this topic might increase more in importance if one goes bonkers on huge song Projects. As i normally do a song with max 40 traks, and often way under with asmattering of plug ins…i dont think it will affect moi. 4..For more info on cogent articles bout music production on a pc , slick audio has some interesting articles. … https://www.slickaudio.com/music-production-blog/ Also lots of interesting info on gearspace.com . loads of posts like this big long thread.eg Build a pc…..for music production.... https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/560019-quot-today-we-build-our-studio-pc-quot-thread.html re above go to the latest dated posts. Frankly from my research for my needs a under ik dollars or 800 uk quids pc with fast i5 on the single thread passmark , 2 m.2 ssd, pcie4 or later, lots of usb and other ports and 32 gigs ram ddr4 or later will more than fill my needs…till 10 ghz cpu’s and pcie version 99 lol comes out. re 'tails' of course eddie is right. Best om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/16/22 07:00 AM.
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Gordon.
(btw i enjoy our exchange of ideas,) Yes, me too. From what ive researched so far ive concluded the following for music production.
1..M.2 is a no brainer . uber fast and dirt cheap. Eg 256 gb. I’m getting 2 . As I mostly use Linux and BiaB in Wine needs .wav files, I need 2T for BiaB alone. That makes the SSDs a fair chunk of my budget, whatever. I am, though, weighing up the Audiophile edition as a consequence.
2..Selecting a processor with a single thread passmark score over 3000 is a good idea.
One of my candidate processors, i5-11600t is only 2885, but it's a 35W TDP processor that I could run fanless in an ultra-short 1U case if I wish. I probably won't. (my b’day is next week and my new studio.. My 70th is in a couple of weeks, but my 45th wedding anniversary is the week before (bad planning, that!), so I must be patient. Actually I'm still waiting for the short 2U cases to arrive anyway.... ... So i ponder how much am i gonna shave off the 4 secs. I'm not too bothered about boot time. I often have a pause that long at the bootloader so I can choose which operating system to boot. I am quite interested in the time for Biab and/or Reaper to load up a project, but if I halve the 5G/second I'll be pretty happy. Frankly from my research for my needs a under 1k dollars or 800 uk quids Sadly it's 1k UKP, too, as most things here get a 20% tax stuck on top. Incidentally, it isn't easy to tell from cpubenchmark.net whether the results accumulated are baseline or "turbo" or overclocked. I think they just collate results from end-user tests, so I suspect many CPUs are running in the faster modes. I don't want to do that, which makes me wonder whether, for me, there's actually a benefit in using a 12-series CPU. I'm suspecting that I'll likely end up with an i5-11600, 32G RAM and 2x2T M.2 SSDs. 64G RAM if I can find a suitable board that will take more DDRs. Most seem to take only two.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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My 70th is in a couple of weeks, but my 45th wedding anniversary is the week before (bad planning, that!), so I must be patient. Actually I'm still waiting for the short 2U cases to arrive anyway... Wife 2.0 was born Oct 19th. We were married Oct 21st. And that was also around the wonderful jeweler, florist and candy business created holiday of Sweetest Day. Fortunately we didn't make it to our 1st anniversary... (It was euthanasia, trust me.)
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Gordon. That i5 11600 …has better specs than the ‘t’ version on passmark. At 18257//3303…but of course the tdp is more of course. Frankly i’m fed up with laptops due to expandability constraints i run into vs desktops as i said before. Been there , done that. Just some more thoughts …. What really surprises me is apples market approach. Right now they have a superb opportunity to make serious inroads into the win pc market and possibly bring it to its knees with the super duper m series of cpu’s. But from reading articles on the net apparently apple maybe are more interested in the phone market rather than computers. Also it seems they are protecting their higher priced computers above the base mini. Which has limited expandability etc. Crikey ive seen el cheapo refurb win pc’s with way more ports as just one example. Ive seen this strategy play out before in a ‘products role’ in a previous life in a tech company. It didnt work, ..due to severe competition. Of course i told snr mgt we would have probs… They didnt listen so i left ..and within a few years…you can guess the rest… This was one reason (and others like never seeing my wife and family) i got out of working for a tech company. Yes the money is groovy but if ones soul isnt happy …..etc So many tech companies try various strategies…but the wider publict isnt ‘stupid’ . In summary If i was in a product role at apple i would be pushing mgt hard to revamp the base mini with its m cpu. Allow up to 64 gigs, and up to 3 m2 ssd on board and add more ports to it. All for just under 1k…i’d prolly get fired…lol… i'd be all over such a mini. but as you know , the one i’m ‘rooting for is the PI (with chips and maybe a knickerbocker glory desert for afters…lmao.)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knickerbocker_gloryI reckon you prolly will ok with your stated i5 config with lots of ram etc. But, as always 2023 will prolly bring more new pc’s we might have wished we’d waited for. i reckon whatever year i get a new pc...next year i'll wish i had waited. Best om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/16/22 01:41 PM.
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The "T" version is specially selected for low energy consumption and is partially throttled to help achieve that low TDP. 35W TDP is the most the 1U fanless case can handle and that's why I'll likely end up not going that route.
Apart from a few very special versions, laptops have always been significantly constrained. It just a fact of trying to get suitable bits into a compact box at a reasonable price.
Apple don't like to compete head-to-head with Microsoft and the various PC-makers. It's "race to the bottom" price strategy and Apple prefer to market as "premium". Also the end of the PC market has been predicted for a long time now, because tablet and 'phone sales surged and PC sales fell. But there are still many tasks for which a tablet really isn't suitable (e.g., trying to run a big CAD system of a tablet would be ludicrous; multiple 24" screen are typical).
Yes I'll be fine with whatever path I finally take. I'm just reluctant to waste hundreds of beer tokens on bits that don't really make a significant difference. I don't really want to go above 65W TDP as that would start to take me into fan noise in a small-ish 2U.
I use a small, old-ish notepad PC when I want compact portability (like on the boat, mostly I use headphones, I have a Q49 contoller-keyboard on board); I have a Focusrite Scarlet (and wooden case for the notepad+scarlett+PSUs) if I want better sound quality and still compact. My "stage portable" is a 6U Gator flight-case, and that's where the 2U PC goes. The preset PC in that is a mini-tower screwed into a 2U shelf, but that's a horrible hack.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Gordon.
I’m more a occasional rum and pepsi or tequila sunrise or newcastle brown beer bloke.
Yeh i know , my mates say ‘girlie drinks’ Lol
Yep i see where your coming from and reasoning. Its darn tough as the tech changes.
Notice intels strategy ? apple are now using their own silicon and ‘bingo’ intel brings out the affordable i3 12300 with a nice single thread passmark of 3673. Maybe giving some people pause in going to apple ? but 13 has a high tdp it seems.
You said ‘ But there are still many tasks for which a tablet really isn't suitable’.
Totally agree. Much as i like the cheap amazon fire i couldnt use it for applications that demand lots of ‘oomph’. We might see it in the future as tech advances further.
Ive looked at the ipads with the superb apple m cpu, but once again from what i see limited expandability. Cant put 3 m2 ssd in em for example.
I will give huge kudos to one great product including the responsive tech support thats cranked me after my initial ‘scepticism’ and thats my audient evo interface.
Just rock solid asio drivers/very low latency…and v nice mic preamps, and the smartgain feature that means one dont overload into the daw.
For me it was initially ‘ok i’ll take a chance and use for a short time till the tech gets even better at the low end and expecting possible probs’.
Not one prob.
Multi client and works a treat with my music apps. Believe me..it take a lot to impress me.
I mean i would love a high end interface like a RME with their sterling rep. or also the apollo but when gifted musicians often are lucky to make money out of their songs via streaming (20 quid a year ??) i really cant justify.
I've listened to audio examples from many interfaces//ada and the difference tween high end and low end is narrow imho.
Remember when one would buy a hifi for a few quid and it was junk ? but then if you paid a few hundred quid it was very nice ? and got you 98 percent there compared to spending lots lots more moolah ? same deal with interfaces imho.
So i’m hanging tight right now waiting for something to rock my world.
Happiness gordon.
om
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Ah, yes, my HiFi was never cheap and occasionally eye-watering. But my big Tannoy Dual-Concentrics are around 45 years old now. They did sterling service in the 70s/80s when I ran my disco, helped along by separate big folded-horn bass bins and ceramic tweeters.
I renewed the cones about 15 years ago as the roll-surrounds were disintegrating. They're still in use everyday and will still take the breath away with the wick turned up. With all those years of use, they've actually turned out to be pretty good value. Sadly my ears have fared less well :-(.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Gordon. Ah yes tannoys. Groovy. Respect… you lucky bloke lol.… Ive used em in studios. My dad loved tannoys also For some history (in case others are reading this…) https://musictech.com/reviews/studio-icons-tannoy/As the article says most of the uk top studios used em 50’s//60’s//70’s etc. Todays speakers are wimpy imho. Cant crank em like old voice of the theatre lol. Ive been in the market for new monitors for awhile..but nothing cranks me up (thats affordable )...sigh cept ADAMS for some reason i find difficult to explain. Prolly the ribbon/heil tweeters….heres a yt vid from adam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv1PgxMy6BUHeres Dirt cheap diy speakers using ‘audio exciters’....i heard an example playing back classic music that was pretty nice given the silly low cost. Great diy video on yt. Impressive clarity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzNkUmPdXcalso at the uber low end..dayton audio stereo cheapo. https://www.amazon.ca/Dayton-Audio-B652-...01181&psc=1dunno how good they are. seen slew of positive reveiws. bout 100 quid in quids. unpowered. Lots of fun…lol. om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/17/22 06:59 AM.
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Tannoy are still around and I think one can still buy their big speakers, but I think they're in the "you have to ask for them" class. I had a friend who had a pair of proper GRF Autographs. One needs a big room for those. About 5ft high and 4ft wide.
The big Tannoys are also in the "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford them" class.
My replacement cone assemblies alone were £350. But as I said, they're now about 45 years old and still amazing.
iPod killed Hi-Fi, IMHO.
This has gone way, way, off-topic.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Gordon.
Re…’way, off-topic.’
So sorry mate. I’m in a high state of elation after going thru medical stuff i wont bore you with. Oh the joys of getting older…lol
Best
om
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So sorry mate. I’m in a high state of elation after going thru medical stuff i wont bore you with. Oh the joys of getting older…lol
No apology needed to me. I was every bit as guilty of going off topic. I was told many times "don't get old", but it appears I didn't listen.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Ok, one last off topic ............. No apology needed to me. I was every bit as guilty of going off topic.
I was told many times "don't get old", but it appears I didn't listen. I don't mind getting old. Its just falling apart as I do that's hurting me!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Its just falling apart as I do that's hurting me! I'm not falling apart too badly yet, but it's definitely starting.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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Jan 19th, 2020
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