PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting 1-4-5

In another thread, Charlie Fogle taught me something I didn't know BiaB could do.

"In the first box type the number 1 and enter
In the second box type the number 4 and enter
In the third box type the number 5 and enter" . . . thank you Charlie.

As a newbie, I think I know what 1-4-5 means. In the key of C major for example it's the progression C-F-G. But what I didn't know is that BiaB is smart enough to equate the numerical note number with its corresponding note/chord in the scale. [There's probably a better way to describe this.]

When I write a song in BiaB, I try to communicate to BiaB what's in my head by giving it the standard chords/chord progression that I think might work; and experiment until something sounds good to me. Likewise, when I communicate with other players I collaborate with, we use standard chord names.

The background here is that I'm a completly self-taught ammatuer song writer (instrumentals) with limited music theory knowledge but can see the value of understanding music theory as much as I can. Also, when I play 1-4-5 progressions on my bass, I know where the "1" is on my fretboard but I'm not thinking "1"; I'm thinking "C". And for some songs that I have committed to memory and don't need a chord sheet (no matter the key) I'm not even thinking "C" but rather I'm thinking geometric patterns and x-y locations on my fretboard. A huge step forward for me (that happened in the past year) is that in certain/rare cases, I know the tone that will be produced before I even fret the note or press the key. It is these memorized songs that I play the best with maximun "feel" and freedom.

So, in my world in BiaB I use traditional note/chord names (C, F, G, etc). And when I play my bass or keyboard I use the same traditional note/chord names and sometimes geometry. So there is a lot going on here; various symbolic music notations, geometry, memory, what is musically pleasing and now, maybe "1-4-5" symbology/arithmetic.

My question is this. Does anyone use the "1-4-5 numeric symbology" as a direct way to communicate to BiaB when writing songs? Or do you enter chords directly as I do? In other words, what value is there in using the numeric notation that Charlie is describing?

I know the 1-4-5 and the I-IV-V but I do not use that nomenclature when imputing chords in BiaB or any other music program. I always use chord names like Cm7b9, or FMaj7, etc. If I see the chord name I know what notes are in said chord whereas if I see a IVm I have to figure out the key signature, find the IVm chord, and then figure out what notes are in it. I prefer to see the chord name up front. YMMV

It will do the Nashville number system as we as Do-Re-Mi.... it's quite capable of speaking several languages musically speaking.

Thanks Mario, you and I are alike in this regard, yet something tells me there is some (hidden?) value in the 1-4-5 method.

Are the "several languages" expressed like this?

1-4-5 = C-F-G in the key of C
1-4-5 = D-G-A in the key of D
1-4-5 = E-A-B in the key of E
1-4-5 = F-Bb-C in the key of F
Etc.

There is value in knowing 1-4-5. If someone says "1-4-5 in the key of C and if you know a little theory or if you have a lot of experience you know that the chords will be C-F-G with the 5 usually G7.

Like previously mention if someone says "lets do a 12 bar blues in C" you will know that the chords will be 1-4-5 or again C-F-G7.

To add to what Mario said, I also don't enter numbers in BIAB and for sure not Do, Re, Mi.

For me, I try to speak the common language of the place I am at. BIAB is only one of the many tools I have. I also play live under many conditions, band, solo, studio, and others.

If I am using BIAB or writing by hand on paper or using a standard notation program, I will use chord names.

I use the "1,4,5" idea to communicate on stage. I could hold up four fingers to tell the bass player to go to the four chord for example. It all depends on who I am playing with and what they know.

If you were in a studio in LA the Nashville number system would not be used much. The top studio players could very well know and understand it. In Nashville, it is the most common way to communicate although there are versions differences from studio to studio.

As Mario alluded to, the 1,4,5 does not give you the key. If I wanted to say that to someone I would say "this is a one four five in the key of Bb for example. So then we know that the four is going to be Eb and the five F.

The more complex your writing becomes and the greater the number of styles you start to play, the more music theory becomes useful. The greater the number of different musicians at various levels you interact with, the greater the need for knowledge of music theory becomes.

Also, sixty years into messing around with music, I still have a major chord chart, a natural minor chord chart, and a circle of fifths chart hanging on the wall in front of me. Then I don't have to try to remember what the fifth of Db is...lol

Billy

One of the things I like about numerical notation is that, once one is familiar with it in the various keys, when a singer struggles in a key, it's relatively easier to change to another. "C is too high ... can we try it in Bb?".

I know it will do several different "languages". I personally do not use the Nashville number system or any other system other than to enter the exact chord names I want to use. However, the beauty of those coded systems is that you enter the numbers per the system and assign the key and it all works perfectly. So while it may not show you the exact chords.... know that of you're using 1,4,5 and have assigned a key of F for example.... the 4 will be Bb.

Many thanks to all that replied on this subject.

I think I know enough now to say that I can't justify the cost of including this numeric notation system in my toolbox at this time. Perhaps at some future point in my musical development this will be more relevant and appealing.

With a little more experience and music theory, whether you study music theory or have it come with experience, the I-IV-V and other numeric offerings will become more natural.

Nashville Notation is a transcription method for song arrangements. It provides a lot more information than just the chord progression. A lot of music symbols found in traditional music notation is substituted with numbers and characters in Nashville Notation. Rhythmic, dynamic, chord voicings, shots, holds, and rests are used with symbols developed by Nashville session musicians. There's notation for all types of phrasings, rhythms, strumming patterns and symbols to indicate precisely how a particular section is to be played.

A song transcribed in Nashville Notation is not dependent on any key signature and the arrangement remains the same regardless of key signature. Once someone has learned and become fairly proficient with the system, it's not unusual to be able to hear a song on the radio for the first time and chart the arrangement completely in real time.

It derived years ago from recording sessions in Nashville. It was not uncommon for a group of session musicians to be hired to play a recording session and none of these musicians could read traditional notation. Often, none of these musicians had ever worked together before, nor worked with the Producer and engineers. With certainty, none would be familiar with the new song to be recorded. As you can imagine, a lot of time was wasted. Nashville Notation was borne from necessity.

Hi Charlie, thanks for the lesson on the Nashville system. Your post is an example of something that should be captured in a PDF file so that future newbies like me can benefit from it. Capturing valuable content in PDF files was discussed here a few months ago in relation to using BiaB but music theory and other related subjects could make sense too.

FWIW, below is the notation that I produced "on the fly" to facilitate communication with the other players when we recorded our latest song. It doesn't capture everything but we found it to be useful.

A Summertime Long Ago

Here is a song you may have listened to written in Nashville Notation.



I have observed that many professional studio musicians can use this system. Whether it is used depends on the music genres and what part of the country/world the studio is in.

Jazz, for example, wonders around out of key enough that the Nashville Number System is more trouble than it is worth. Just my opinion.

There are many variations of the system from studio to studio in Nashville. Time costs money in a studio, so anything that can be done to reduce the cost is often tried.

The educational level of the musicians in question varies with the genres, and, to some extent, age is a factor. The length of time someone has been playing has an effect. Some people who started playing with no idea of music theory generally acquire some along the way. It is possible with today's internet to get a pretty good basic understanding of music theory for free.

Many people in the United States have the money to send their kids to school to study music for many reasons other than becoming a professional musicians. Some of those kids go on to become professionals.

Looking back, I have played with some pretty uneducated blues players. They may have not had formal education but they knew how to play and had a good understanding of basic music theory. They all used something like the Nashville Number System, if only with their hands.

Billy

EDIT: I tried to play this song from the Nashville chart. I have never tried to play it although I have listened to it a few times. I am not sure what the little half eye above the intro chords indicates, arpeggiate perhaps. ( that symbol is not very standard) What becomes readily apparent is that is a system that does not tell you exactly what to play. Go look at the chart, go listen to the recording, and go look up the TAB and you will see what I mean.

It is pretty logical to play this in the key of A on guitar because of the ease of forming the A# dim chord. That is a little more difficult to do in the key of C for example.

Some cool stuff in this thread. Awesome!

But hey, however you call it, pop/country/rock uses 4 chords.

The C F G Am. I IV V Vi (6 minor). 1 4 5 6 minor

Occasionally you see the 2 m7 or 3 m7 and RARELY the 2 Maj, but that is about it. (Except for slash chord variations.)

2 Major?? Oh yeah: (But if you TRY SOMETIMES....)


https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/the-rolling-stones/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want-chords-4019

Anyway, in any group I have ever been in, band, or songwriting or anything, the conversation is always like: "Hey are you sure you want to go to the V so fast? Why can't we stay on the 4? Sounds like the right place for the 6 minor..." And so on.

It is as natural as red light, green light, yellow light, yield sign when you are driving. You know these intervals like the back of your hand.

On bass and guitar, there really are only 2 major scale shapes, the "C shape" starting on the fifth string" and the "G shape" starting on the 6th string." Oh, well, actually there is the A formation, and the E formation too, and the D come to think of it....but let's not worry about that right now...

Anyway, all music is just variations on these simple concepts.

It is really not that hard.



P.S. This might help you Billy. Actually a good practice regimen here.

http://www.danwilt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nashville-Number-System-Wilt.pdf

But let me give you a pop quiz on Db Billy.

If the 5th of D is A, then the 5th of Db is......

come on you can do it....

A fluh.....laaaaaaaa

A fluh....laaaaaaa

The numbers/numerals thing is a "cool tool for those who knows it".
I don't use it because I wasn't taught it or anything much else & I go out of my way to avoid the progression conventions that are, almost, inextricably tied in with it.
Those conventions exist for good reasons of course: Root/home, movement, floating, resolution etc.
The iv/4 system can be used without being caught up in them, and being a self taught/amateur is one of the easiest ways to avoid being "caught", but there're reasons people say things such as in David's quote,""Hey are you sure you want to go to the V so fast?" There're very strong cultural/training/expectation reasons that are tied into the common chord progressions. Pachelbel REALLY deserves some of the residuals.

After the 1st six taught me in 1976 by my college room mate, (so I could play along to a song I wrote the lyrics to & he the melody/chords), I learnt additional chords by discovery - sometimes moving a shape around and otehr times simply putting fingers in places. As a bass player for a few years before that I was, and still am, quite comfortable "writing" based on single notes and chromaticism.
The way I use chords is based on how I hear them together. Sometimes that matches a common progression. Eventually I learnt the names for most of those discovered chords, (I was past 35 when I found out that the two note "chords" I sometimes used were 5ths/power chords - I've lead a sheltered life), and can type them into BIAB to create "songs"...I've also restricted myself to using chords I can play.
I keep my harmonic vocabulary limited and I work within them and try to avoid the obvious.
I am a bad example of songwriting though and I know that many of my songs give extremely well trained musicians & music teachers headaches because of my failure to provide a "tonal centre" or to stay in a key or for "borrowing" chords that aren't supposed to be borrowed.
As I have a regular audience of just me I'm happy to work with what sounds right to me.

Here endeth my sophistry.

No doubt that pro musicians can use this. And I'm never going to be a pro, just a hobbyist having fun.

Nonetheless, this is all good backgound info for me to be aware of . . . thanks.

<< No doubt that pro musicians can use this. And I'm never going to be a pro, just a hobbyist having fun. >>

Ok. I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't use or know the Nashville Number system learn and use it. I just shared that it's a tool in the BIAB tool box that anybody at any musical theory level can use.

But I do want to cast doubt that the Nashville Number System is just a cool tool for those that know it or only useful to pro level musicians.

Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers.

It's not been mentioned but a relative point is a Nashville Number Chart is usually done on a per instrument part that originates from notation containing information common to all instruments such as the time signature, tempo, song structure and then expanded as needed for specific instruments. For instance if the chart Billy posted is notation for a saxophone or piano and he's playing a guitar, he can only interpret it completely, correctly and precisely if it is transcribed for the guitar part intended for him to play.

Anyone who that comes across "the C F G Am. I IV V Vi (6 minor). 1 4 5 6 minor" terms, can then by typing those numerals into a BIAB chord chart, regardless of key, tempo, feel, or time signature can - 'see' and 'hear' that progression. With that progression, a novice may have all the music needed to write a song.

BIAB's version of Nashville Numbers is quite basic and lacks a lot of symbols. But it can do more than just prime numbers. Need a seventh for the V chord, type 57. 59 for the ninth and so on. Those BIAB shortcuts work with using numbers rather than the chord name. Also 1J will give the one chord as a Maj 7th chord.

I've attached a link to a YouTube video of a band recording a song that at this mark in the video, only the musician that charted (Nashville Numbers) the song has heard. The band will listen to a demo provided by the client and then record pro-quality tracks for the client to use in his home studio and record along with these tracks. The Nashville Number Chart is discussed at the 6:35-7:08 section of the video. The whole video is well worth the time to watch. This recording session can be duplicated by anyone that has BIAB and can read the NN Chart or analyze the audio with the ACW. That a PG Music session artist is included in the band is more than sufficient evidence that BIAB is up to the task...

Tracking Day! | Gilder Cam [4]

I watched all of the "Tracking Day" video. It is typical of any professional studio one would find in Nashville. That it was in a house does not change the fact that it is a professional studio in use by professional musicians.

The process and procedures used reflect the way someone with a rough demo could get a good demo and perhaps even a radio-ready demo out of a professional studio at a reasonable cost. Without a vocal by the client or a vocalist used in the studio, the final track would be of limited use unless it was an instrumental.

As was stated, someone listened to the client demo and transcribed it to the extent that there was something to transcribe. That transcription was done in Nashville Number System. It just as well could have been done in standard notation. It is possible that none of those guys could read standard notation. Who knows, but I doubt it.
They looked to be pretty seasoned pros.

A lot of basic demos get made this way along with a few radio-ready songs.

How any of this relates to BIAB through the use of the Nashville Number System is a bit of a mystery to me. Obviously, BIAB can understand very basic numeric symbolic input.

These guys are listening to each other and modifying their playing based on what they hear and then having conversations to further modify the song all in real-time. This is standard recording studio stuff.

You don't have to go to Juilliard to write a song but you can not use NNS without some understanding of music. !,4,5...the 5 of what?

Obviously, most people who buy BIAB have some idea of what it does and will look at the videos that PG Music has made and learn to use the product. Many produce some very good music as can be listened to here on the forum. The studio will never do what BIAB does and BIAB will never do what a studio of the type in the video does. Well...who knows what AI software will do in the future but for the present, I will stick by my statement.

So...just as an experiment, go input the number symbols from the post I made into BIAB and assume it was written only for piano. As BIAB, and your keyboard for that matter does not have the small zero/degree-looking symbol for a diminished chord how will you get the #1dim chord in. How would you even know what that symbol meant or what a sharp diminished chord is? Without some reference, a 1,4,5, and C, F, G are equally meaningless.

Billy

I've found something as simple as a +++ Guitar Chords +++ poster on the wall has helped me understand the guitar better. It works pretty good for electric bass too.

+++ THIS +++ Music Theory Cheat poster tells you much of what you need to know to understand what Band-in-a-Box is doing.

That is pretty cool Jim. I have all that sort of charts hanging on the wall but not as well consolidated.
Having that sort of reference material handy is a big plus for an old guy like me who has CRS...lol

I also tried to program BIAB to play the Garth Brooks song using the Nashville Number System. I just programmed the first 12 bars or so where Garth is singing and playing acoustic guitar. I was able to find a remarkably close acoustic guitar part. I have no idea how to enter a diminished chord in BIAB using the NNS, had to write the chord in. Also, I have never seen a symbol that indicates that one should arpeggiate a chord in NNS.

Billy

EDIT: What the first 12 bars of the Garth Brooks song look like in BIAB in NNS.

According to that Cheat Chart it's number or letter plus * BUT according to BIAB it's the letter/number + dim.
According to the numbers system you needn't add it as, if the key is set & the numeral/number added, it should KNOW it's dim.

Nice cheat chart.
Like so may it has far too much going on but it'd still be very handy.

The numerals/number system is a cool tool but it's an "in the know" tool because one has to know each key for it.

"Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers."

OR any other way.

Music theory isn't really theory: it's a grammar for communicating information from a culturally, (let's be honest most theory is based on the tonalities of a couple of hundred years back), language.

The dabbling player/writer, with a limited musical vocabulary would, in all likelihood, enter the chord they play/hear. Using numbers/numerals would create some problems for borrowed chords, modulation etc. - things that BIAB can do but not quite as easily as entering the chords.

It's really hard for the musically educated & adept to get into the shoes of a novice or dabbler. That's why many, MANY music "teachers", Maths "teachers" and such have trouble communicating the thing they love so much.

Lot's of good points from everyone. Some quick comments to clarify some things as they pertain to BIAB Chord Sheet:

<< I have no idea how to enter a diminished chord in BIAB using the NNS >>
A diminished chord is entered into BIAB the same as Standard Chord Display (C,F,Bdim)= 1,4,7dim

<< I see the chord name I know what notes are in said chord whereas if I see a IVm I have to figure out the key signature, find the IVm chord, and then figure out what notes are in it. I prefer to see the chord name up front. >>
What is displayed on the BIAB Chord Sheet is determined by what display is set as the default. Regardless of the Chord Display type entered, the BIAB Chord Sheet displays the default setting.
For Example: Default Chord Display set to Standard Chord Display; BIAB can display standard, Roman Numeral, Nashville Notation, Solfeggio, Notation (Do,Re,Mi)or Fixed Do (Italy/Europe) Do,Re,Mi relative to C.
The User can input a mixture of all of the Chord Displays and the BIAB Chord Chart will display the default selection of Standard Chord Display. If there's another default selection, BIAB Chord Chart will display that default.

According to the BIAB manual, Solfeffio or Fixed Do is very popular internationally.

Wikipedia:
What countries use Do Re Mi?
In European music theory, most countries use the solfège naming convention do–re–mi–fa–sol–la–si, including for instance Italy, Portugal, Spain, France, Romania, most Latin American countries, Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Russia, Arabic-speaking and Persian-speaking countries.

<< So...just as an experiment, go input the number symbols from the post I made into BIAB and assume it was written only for piano. As BIAB, and your keyboard for that matter does not have the small zero/degree-looking symbol for a diminished chord how will you get the #1dim chord in. >>
1dim does the trick.


<<

Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker

It will do the Nashville number system as we as Do-Re-Mi.... it's quite capable of speaking several languages musically speaking.

Are the "several languages" expressed like this?

1-4-5 = C-F-G in the key of C
1-4-5 = D-G-A in the key of D
1-4-5 = E-A-B in the key of E
1-4-5 = F-Bb-C in the key of F
Etc.

>>
No. This is all one language. Nashville Notation is a single notation system.

<< The numerals/number system is a cool tool but it's an "in the know" tool because one has to know each key for it.

"Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers."

OR any other way. >>

Yes, that's correct but it's irrelevant to BIAB chord entry because BIAB will display the chord with whatever Chord Display option selected.

Hi Charlie,

The screenshot of the BIAB Nashville Number System was after I set the tempo, key of A, and entered the chord names. I then told BIAB to change everything to NNS. The only strange thing was I entered A#dim and it printed out 2bdim or Bbdim which I did not understand as A is a sharp key and there is no Bbdim in the key of A as I understand it. Perhaps I am confused, that has happened once or twice...lol

One of the things we have omitted from all this 1,4,5 conversation is, that it does not take very long to be able to hear and recognize a 1,4,5 by the way it sounds. For sure one may not know what key the 1,4,5, is in because very few of us have perfect pitch but almost all of us humans have pretty good relative pitch. If we hear the 1,4,5, in any key several times, that pattern will be pretty obvious in other keys.

The way I have seen Nashville Number System written most often is like Charlie posted. Written by hand and almost always having the key letter name in a circle at the upper left.

This system was put together a long time ago having nothing to do with BIAB. It was designed to be used by musicians who could play well enough but could not read standard notation. For someone familiar with the system, is generally faster to transcribe and less difficult to read for the players. That is especially true for guitar players because standard notation does not tell you where to put your fingers on a guitar. That is one of the reasons TAB was invented.

It was never expected to be a system that could inform someone who could not play an instrument what to play. And by any measure, it is as arcane to a non-musician as standard notation. With or without being classically trained, what the devil could 2- mean? And even to those people who use the system every day, it is inadequate to indicate solo information and many other things. That is why so many variations and embellishments are common in the studios in Nashville.

OMG, this is turning into a Leo Tolstoy-style post...the guy who wrote War And Peace...lol

Sorry, I can type faster than I can think...lol

Billy

Billy

NN borrows a lot of symbols from traditional notation. In the Garth Brooks song NN image, a dot with a semi circle over the top appears to be a pause symbol placed over a note, you hold the note for longer than its indicated duration.), repeats, a note for an acapella section, there's a specifically noted riff in the solo, I'm not sure, but I believe the quarter note = 114 is a traditional notation symbol.

<< It was never expected to be a system that could inform someone who could not play an instrument what to play. >>

True. It was developed as a system that informed someone that could play an instrument, what to play.

Using Nashville Notation is no different in BIAB than a user importing Chords into the Chord Chart from a text file. It's just something BIAB can do that some users benefit from it in their personal workflow. NN is based on major chord chart theory.

C-D-E-F-G-A-B = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and the 2,3 and 6 are minors and the 7 diminished IIRC

In the other thread I used 1-4-5 because that discussion had 1-4-5 theory in other's comments. My example given there allows a novice to follow directions entering the numbers of the thread discussion without any theory or musical experience with an instrument and BIAB will provide a musical rendition of the theoretical 1-4-5 chord progression.

People that use NN and are proficient can mentally enter a chord progression into paper or the BIAB Chord Chart extremely fast. They are so use to charting a song using NN, they find it easier and PG Music accommodated those who are familiar with the system and it's included in their normal workflow.

Clearly, NN follows music theory not replaces or teach it. RayC is correct that any of the notation display types recognized by BIAB can be used to enter chords into the BIAB Chord Sheet and will display in whichever notation display option is selected as the default.

I hadn't realised the richness of the Nashville Notation, usually seeing it refered to just an Nashville Numbering System. I've always used Roman numerals for the keyless notation.

I think one reason it's quick to transcribe/transpose is that one learns the notes in the keys. To start from one key and transpose to another seems to me to involve a calculation every time, either this note/chord +/- X semitones, or "this is the fifth of C, and I want the fifth of E, so I want B. The latter has to be slower.

Once you know music theory, and can understand the NNS, it becomes second nature to you. Kind of like riding a bike..... Key of A.... lets go. It's all there with little conscious thought.

I was in Myrtle Beach a number of years ago.... Paulette Carlson from Hwy 101 was at a local venue so my wife and I went. The band and the show was top quality. She did all her songs just like they were on the records. After the show I got a few minutes to talk with the guitarist in the band. I asked him how long they have been together backing Carlson. His reply was, we're all studio cats from Nashville who flew in yesterday and today and we were hired to do this show. We've never played together as a band before this show. They had one rehearsal session the day of the show.... I didn't notice anyone reading charts on the stage, but that's what separates the professionals from the rest... The solos and fills were close enough (some were exact) to get the job done and the music was tight. Great show.

The NNS is a roadmap that gives the players direction but it doesn't detail the minutia of the song. It's really handy for the sessions that are fast and gotta get it done vs hit songs for a major artist where yeah... there's a chart, but there's also signature licks and details that have to be incorporated into the song.

Nice story indeed. These people clearly were professionals.

Bad News: In my case, I started playing/writing music way too late in life

Good News: Remember that feeling when you were 13 and heard that awesome song for the first time? You might even remember where you were at that time. I still have some of that wonder and thrill. I also have BiaB and helpful, experienced people at this forum to guide, assist and critique. And learning is great fun for me. With limited time and skill I just need to pick and choose which areas to focus on. Music is nearly infinite

Exactly.

It's clear that some folk like certain ways and they flog 'em to death without really paying attention to the where, why & how of others who don't care for those ways.

Music is fun, fulfilling, creative and more. Using the tools you know/can afford and learning new ones you can/care to play & write is the point.

We could be arguing about a preferred interface and, I suspect, the thread would've followed similar lines to this one.

The numeral & numbers systems are great. Professionals use them for a reason, but they do push the brain along a well worn concrete path.

Here's the chord chart for a song I wrote a year ago... a system that uses something like 1 - 4 - 5 isn't going to do a fab job of explaining it...

Hi Ray

What I would generally like to know when talking about a song or playing a song is basic information. What key is the song in, what is the tempo, and what style of music are we dealing with. What actually happens playing live is sometimes you get none of that information. The singer/guitar player starts something off and you need to be able to figure out how to play along to that in about the first three notes. Not always easy.

In the case of what you posted, I would likely assume the key of A as most of the chords come from the A scale. By the end of the first bar, I should have the tempo figured out. I would have some idea of the style.

In and of itself a 1,4,5 only indicates the first, the fourth, and the fifth chord of the scale of the key. It does not explain anything about any other chord progression in a song. The only reason anyone would even bring it up was the fact that a zillion songs are in a 1,4,5.
# 1. Sweet home Chicago E-A-B shuffle
# 2. Love in vain G-C-D shuffle
# 3. sitting on top of the world A-D-E shuffle
# 4. you shook me E-A-B slow blues
# 5. ramblin on my mind E-A-B shuffle
#6. I believe i'll dust my broom D-G-A shuffle
#7. Killing floor A-D-E uptempo
#8. Rock me baby B-E-F shuffle
#9. I'm tore down C-F-G shuffle
#10. Double trouble B-E-F slow blues
#11. Wild Thing any key you like...lol

How else could you communicate to someone that simple chord progression without saying one, four, five? Well, you could say this is in the key of C and the chords are C,F,G but the singer wants it in the key of A so play A,D,E but then again the horn player....lol

For me personally, I don't care how the information is stated. 1,4,5 one four five I IV V written out in standard notation or TAB or both or none of the above. If no one says anything I am going to just listen and play by ear.

There are a lot of very common chord progressions 1,6,4,5 for example. If someone said that to you, it would be expected that you would know the 6 chord is a minor chord. These letters and numbers are just a way to communicate and of course, all this gets much more complex than these simple statements.

I don't use Nashville Number System very often and only when that is what I need to do. People generally don't put a piece of sheet music in front of me but I can muddle through it if I must. It is the old joke about how to get a guitar player to shut up...put a piece of sheet music in front of them...lol

If we are sitting in a room together we can communicate just by listening. No need for all the symbolic stuff!

Billy

Hello PianoBilly

"What I would generally like to know when talking about a song or playing a song is basic information. What key is the song in, what is the tempo, and what style of music are we dealing with. What actually happens playing live is sometimes you get none of that information. The singer/guitar player starts something off and you need to be able to figure out how to play along to that in about the first three notes. Not always easy.

In the case of what you posted, I would likely assume the key of A as most of the chords come from the A scale. By the end of the first bar, I should have the tempo figured out. I would have some idea of the style"

The key is, nominally, Amaj. The tempo is either 125 or 130bpm and it wouldn't be much chop as a jam song.

I've edited my previous post to better reflect what I meant. I used 1-4-5 as short hand for a number/numeral system.

It's not a particularly common progression song so would be difficult to articulate in a system that is key tied.

I write the chords I've played and liked when together. I doubt the number/numeral systems would accommodate that well.

I know a fellow in Canada who co-ordinates, for want of a better word, a jam night in a pub but he makes sure there're a few songs any/everyone attending can play along to if they wish...to do this he prepares a rehearsal vid, posts it to Utub and sends the link to those who've expressed interest. That allows him to expand the vocabulary of himself and the jammers. The biggest pity is that he's a fabulous songwriter, singer, homerecordist as well as a fab guitar player but he's put his own stuff aside for a couple of years now to have fun playing with others.

Biggest laugh of my day.

When the meter is running, those who can't handle the symbolic stuff never get hired again — even in Nashville.

Although lots of pickers work who can only handle Nashville Numbering or Roman numeral chording, those of us who can read music do work more.

Except, of course, folk like Glen Campbell who couldn't read any notation and had to be told the chords but Brian Wilson & others kept hiring him. Exceptions to all rules and rules for all exceptions.

Yes Mario, F#

Yes, Mike, I agree that almost all pro studios require the studio musicians to be able to read standard notation and most generally understand NNS, and TAB. Many can also play very useful parts using only their ears. Those that can not read will not get hired to begin with in most cases. I have actually never been in a studio where people could not read, even the drummers. The exception to that was with some really old blues players.

Generally speaking, studio musicians are some of the most educated and knowledgeable musicians around.

Many people, even guitar players, can read standard notation and play by ear. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Those abilities are very commonly used in a studio situation. Many times people have asked a studio musician to play something off the top of their heads. Not everything that gets recorded was planned out in detail on paper before the session.

I can say for sure I am not likely to sightread guitar music for fun. I assume some people do because for some people the only way they can play is to read.

It is normally necessary to be proficient in music theory to work as a studio musician. It is not necessary to know any theory to play music and get paid to play in a bar for example. The Royal Albert Hall...well that is another thing entirely. Context...

Billy

In the early days of backyard, garage, and basement jams, it was simply play and jam. Practically everything was a 1,4,5 and either in C, D, E, G, or A..... I was quite good at listening and anticipating where songs were headed.


Tempo was set by whoever started the jam...and as long as the drummer could keep it relatively constant.... life was good. TBTH... most jams were in E or A. Occasionally, a band would coalesce from a certain jam session.

I personally LOVE to read sheet music the way some people love to read novels. (Though I love to read novels too--or at least the good ones.)

Everyone is different, but I love musical notation because you can read the musical story, right in front of your eyes.

Here is a page from a copy of Recuerdos De la Alhambra by Tarrega I marked up. At measure 21 the song goes from A minor to A Major. The build up to this transition is such a work of meticulous planning genius, and it takes my breath away every time. Just flat-out gorgeous. I love to play it, and I love to read it. Just to marvel at the perfection.

The ladies seem to love this song as well. Forget Stairway to Heaven. Play this. The A minor to A Major transition first happens in this amazing rendition at the 2 min mark.

A little history to clear up some misunderstandings/misinformation about the numbers system. It was developed in Nashville in the late 50s/early 60s (can't recall exactly when), and it is most often credited to Nashville session musician Charlie McCoy. Charlie saw vocalists using a similar method and thought it would speed up the recording process for studio musicians.

That was the primary reason it was developed and implemented. Not for musicians who didn't know how to read music (although there has been a great number of amazing session players over the years who can't read music at all), but to speed the process up. In those days, and in most of my years in Nashville, the artist didn't write their own songs for the most part. Time was also of the essence, so producers were trying to get as many songs recorded as they could in the allotted time.

Typically, a song is brought to the studio, in those days maybe on a reel to reel tape, acetate, or even just a guitar & lyric sheet. The musicians learn the song on the fly. They don't hear it beforehand, rehearse it, or have any prior knowledge of the song until they hear it in the studio. The musicians usually write the chart themselves, as they are listening to it. Some people write charts beforehand (I always do) but others don't. Let's say it's my song, and I wrote it in the key of Eb. But the singer needs to sing it in G. Imagine all the work and time it would take to transpose a chart written in the standard Eb/Ab/Bb method. With the numbers system, the chart works in any key. So it's a huge time saver. I've had many, many recording sessions where we've tracked 6 or more songs in 3 hours, in large part because of all the time saved by using the numbers system on the charts. One day in particular I remember - I had a double session booked (that is, a 10am and a 2pm, 3 hours each). I wanted to get 12 songs done, so we started an hour early in the morning (9am), and as I always do, I had a couple of extra songs ready in case one or two just didn't come together. So the session was from 9-1, then a lunch break to be followed by another 3 hours from 2-5. At around 12:40, my session leader/piano player said "Well guys, should we go ahead and track the 10th song now or go to lunch early?" We wound up going ahead & cutting it, so we recorded 10 songs in 4 hours. Here's one of them, if you're interested in listening... https://www.reverbnation.com/rogerbrown/song/3677243-it-lingers

Also, it works perfectly in any genre of music, including jazz - although the charts are a bit more cluttered. It's interesting to me that when I came to Nashville, I wrote charts in the standard format. Now I don't know that I can. If someone asks me what chord I'm playing, I say "it's a 3b" or "it's 7b+9". On occasion, someone will say "no, what's the name of the chord" and I have to stop and think about it, because I'm so used to thinking in numbers now.

Like Charlie, I'm not trying to convert anyone to the numbers system. Use what you're comfortable with, there's no right or wrong here. Just pointing out that it's an extremely useful and effective way of writing charts, especially if time is a consideration.

Thanks for the sheet music example David, but that's way above my pay grade. But the video and how she played her piece is superb.

Roger, thanks for the history lesson, I will never be a studio musician. Maybe those that are will adopt the Nashville system if they already heaven't. And your track is very professional.

Glen Campbell is your example? Now you’re being silly. For the record, though he couldn’t sight-read notes, he had no problem with chord charts and I don’t care how many places you read otherwise. Though I did some dates with him, no reason to take my word for it. Carol Kaye did hundreds of sessions with the man.

Carol Kaye and James Burton on Glen Campbell




Thanks, Roger. My point exactly. If you can’t keep up in the studio, you are costing others money. Keep doing that and no one hires you.

Yo don't get to that level without a lot of knowledge, whether you know music theory or not. You must be able to read chord sheets regardless of the nomenclature.

Wes Montgomery was an outstanding jazz guitarist. Here is a clip from a web site

"Wes Montgomery couldn't read music, didn't know music theory, and didn't understand his instrument electronics. He also strummed exclusively with his thumb, and idiosyncrasy that would make any music instructor run faint."

However he had one hell of an ear for jazz music and recorded some of the best jazz guitar albums every produced, IMHO.

Beautiful piece you posted there Mr. David. Costa del sol, Malaga Spain, on of my favorite places in the world. Where the song was written, could have been where I first listened to it. Reading that is a lot easier than playing it ...lol That would for sure be a duet for me...lol

Billy

Well, there Roger Brown I like "Five dollars In Change" busted pride and all!
I understand you wrote a song for Nanci Griffith. I was just wondering if you knew Eric Taylor.

He wrote a song called Moony that I can not find any recording of. I would love to hear it one more time
before I get too old to listen.

Billy

I know the name, but I don't think I ever met him. Although I'm from TX, I moved to Nashville when I was very young (19) and our paths never crossed. Nanci and I became friends one night when I was playing a songwriter show at a bar in Nashville called Bogey's (long gone now). She was having dinner next door with a songwriter named Harlan Howard, and as they were leaving Harlan saw me on stage through the window and told Nanci they should go in and listen (he and I were friends and he thought Nanci would enjoy hearing a fellow Texan). One of the songs I played that night was the song she wound up recording. She very generously invited me to the recording session, and even put an 8x10 picture of me in the music video they wound up doing on the song.

She was a very kind, thoughtful and supportive person to me and I miss her.

Nanci was a wonderful person. I sort of watched her grow up. I also miss her. Some friends of mine and I use to hang out at Anderson Fair. That's where I first met Eric a long time before he and Nanci got married.

Also, as you know well the NNS could you type out an example of how to write a chord in a progression that is out of key? Don't ever get old, you can't remember anything...lol

Billy

EDIT: After thinking about it for a minute I may have remembered.

6- 1 2 4

6- 1 37 37 ( no way to do the small 7 on the computer)

the 37 would make the 3- a major 7 (out of key)

Funnily enough when I was in early high school (70-73 at a huge govt school in the poorer south western suburbs of Sydney), we had to attend music lessons each week and at some stage we were taught to follow a piece reading the orchestration. We started off with easy stuff...Canon probably and moved to The Death of Ase and then more elaborate things. I've loved following a chart since then BUT I didn't progress in actually reading to play, (beyond a couple of bass lessons), until I took up cello at the beginning of this century. NATURALLY I revisited Grieg with the cello and better reading. Good on my comprehensive, egalitarian, high school for bucking the "preparation for workforce ethos" just a bit and bringing some richness into our lives.

Glen Campbell is your example? Now you’re being silly. For the record, though he couldn’t sight-read notes, he had no problem with chord charts and I don’t care how many places you read otherwise. Though I did some dates with him, no reason to take my word for it. Carol Kaye did hundreds of sessions with the man.[/quote]

I apologise for not noting that he could read a chord chart -"...told the chords..." wasn't necessarily or often verbal...that was a given I assumed it was understood...let's face it anyone who can read can read a chord chart. CK was one of the sources, along with many other interviews with Wrecking Crew folk for my statement. I could look up the vid or comment about him asking another WC member for the chords but you wouldn't have space to accommodate it if proven so I shan't bother. I also read that he couldn't sight read but his Braille was pretty cool.
You are a smug possum aren't you?

Interesting side story here: I hired a really talented guitar player in one of the bands I managed and played in. Long story on the guy.... we had a rocky past history as he actually stole my guitar one of the two times it was stolen. Long story short, I got it back the next day and law enforcement handled the details. Several years later I called him and offered him a job, which, after a few minutes of discussion, he accepted. A few months later on the road in a motel room somewhere in NC, I woke up at 3:30am to the sound of classical guitar music coming from..... the bathroom. I got up and walked to the bathroom door and pushed it open..... There he was, sitting on the throne..... (with the seat lid down) sheet music spread out on the tub rim and the floor playing his classical music. He looks up and says.... I couldn't sleep so I thought I'd practice and play my classical stuff while everyone was asleep. The guy was exceptionally talented to say the least. The stuff he was playing was like you hear in this video......

So Herb,

I never figured out the difference between you and me until just now.

I started off the story talking about a beautiful lady who looks like an angel playing one of the most beautiful pieces ever written flawlessly in a place that looks like heaven.

You ended the story by talking about sharing a fleabag, bed bug-ridden stinky cigarette butt smellin' $5 an hour motel room with a redneck con-artist and instrument thief who was sitting on the can playing the guitar.

I just got it. I understand what makes us different.

I now also know why you write better country songs than me.

LOL...you are a pain in the....David...lol I don't think you are too cool to write good country songs...lol

And besides Herb knows where you live, so be careful what you say...lol

Billy

To get back to The OP's original question.

"In other words, what value is there in using the numeric notation that Charlie is describing? " ( In BIAB)

My answer is not much unless that is the system you usually use or someone who uses that system needs to read what you entered.

There are many good reasons for using NNS as has been discussed in this thread but to learn the system just for the purpose of entering chords into BIAB most likely is not worth the effort. I can say, learning the NNS is very easy if you already understand what the symbols mean in other systems.

Basic music theory is not difficult to learn if you have an internet connection. All you need to do is to be able to read and understand simple math terms. If you don't play an instrument or have some other music background then having some understanding of basic music theory is what you will need to acquire to create anything other than organized noise in BIAB.

Billy

You are a smug possum aren't you?
[/quote]

Nah, just someone paying attention to the topic.

As I said, I did a few dates with Mr. Campbell over the years if you don’t want to believe Carol Kaye. But, go ahead and find that YouTube video if you must..

I wouldn't want to gainsay you Mr Mike.
Crikey, I wouldn't disbelieve you even if Glen Campbell told me otherwise.
Then again your experience is from a different era of his career. We all grow & change or shrink and change.



Smug as a tug under a rug.

Fantastic interviews. Campbell was a genius who didn't originally know how good he was.

Of course, so many of these successes could be attributed to the brilliance of Jim Webb. It was excellent to see his participation.

Ray, thanx for sharing that. Every member of the Wrecking Crew was a super star IMHO.

Yes, Jimmy Webb"s "catalogue" contains more than hits...he had some brilliant misses and completely bonkers projects like the albums with Harris. Every one a gem &, by the look & sounds of it, he was a nice enough person too.