There are lots of different ways to do a successful mix. I would never do the first or main mix in headphones, but it’s a critical way to check your final mix. Test for phase cancellation, something not possible to do with regular monitors. Also check for muddy bass, or weak bass.
But I did not view the video.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I'm no expert here, but I use both. Sometimes headphones give the the ability to listen to critical nuances in a recording, including the ability to detect artifacts that might not be obvious. Monitors give the ability to listen to the production as a whole including balance, levels, quality, fidelity, mix and more.
Both are versatile tools, but I think that good quality monitors take precedence in deciding on a final production.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I started mixing in 1966 but have never used cans except when recording of course. For us all is done with our Kali studio monitors (8" woofer). They have adjustments that allow consideration of closeness to walls, distance from you, etc.
I check mix downs via our mono Apple HomePod, through our "living room system" (Polk Audio & Yamaha sub) and finally in the Subaru Harman Kardon (good sub). I do give a more casual listen via earbuds and mobile devices.
FWIW since I moved to the Kalis we both feel that if the mixes sound good on them are fine on the other systems mentioned above. They are great monitors and relatively cheap.
Caveat: I FULLY realize great mixes are done with every permutation one can imagine and of course that includes cans.
Bud
PS The vid was interesting but he did spend considerable time explaining why they specifically worked for him, i.e., traveling, how he adapted to the lack of flatness., etc.
I use headphones quite a bit, with Sonarworks correction software, but I'm trying to use monitors much more, KRK Rokit 5's. In this house I have a decent space with diy acoustic panels (8 total) with 4" of Roxul hung on the front and side walls. My plan was to shift to monitors in a semi-treated room and hopefully improve my mixes.
But whether it's can or monitors, I listen to reference music on both, and in the car, on cheap Bluetooth speakers, etc. I have a tough time getting rid of the mud. But with this last project I may have finally learned what the KRK's sound like and what translates to all of those other systems. Now, if only I spent more time on music....
At the home studio I use both, but usually headphones .. with the headphones I can better hear any little clicks from edits, etc., so I do the bulk of the recording, editing and basic mixes with those. The headphones I use are pretty 'true' (for me anyway). YMMV Plus the wife and kid appreciate it. <grin>
At the bigger studio location, we always use monitors unless recording live mic(s). But again, even there I'll use headphones to check edits, etc.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
It's a vexed and personal topic. Headphones are cool and a good pair is a wonderful tool but a) they aren't "stereo" (now, binaural recording is a different matter) & b) they create GREAT mixes for headphones. Regarding headphones versus stereo here's a good guide/intro...
I started recording monitoring through a stereo system. I moved, eventually, to "monitors" and they difference between the previous & the new was amazing and allowed me to get a much better picture of my stereo recording though, with only 41/2" woofers I was ALWAYS guessing bottom end...and headphones don't really help with that - even a nice pair of open back Sennheizers aren't particularly "true". I now have new "monitors" with a 7" woofer and I'm taking time to get to know them before doing any critical "work" but I do now I can actually hear rather than psycho acoustically create in my head, the bottom end. I don't use a sub because I'm still unhappy with the crossover part of that world.
Headphones play an important role though...detail listening...scanning for "noise" etc
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
I use headphones quite a bit, with Sonarworks correction software, but I'm trying to use monitors much more, KRK Rokit 5's.
Like Scott I love to use Sonarworks with my mixes in both headphones and my powered JBLs. For the speakers they help to flatten the frequency response of the inadequacies of my room. On the headphone side they do have a patch for my Sony MDR headphones too. I've found this to be a great tool for all mixing.
I started mixing in 1966 but have never used cans except when recording of course.
That's my view also....I've never mixed on them. I just don't find that process to be a critical part of the equation to arrive at a good mix. (Mine are AKG K240DF)
I have a pair of Tascam S1010m near fields (3") and KRK Rockit 8's. If it sounds good to me (and any collaborator) on both those mediums then I'm good. It's more important to me they sound good on monitors/speakers than cans.
As far as recording artifacts that need to be addressed? I just solo the tracks to find/delete those sneaky annoyances.
I don't use a sub because I'm still unhappy with the crossover part of that world.
I understand that.
I use a subwoofer but do not cross it over letting the built-in high cut along with the natural roll-off of my Equator E8vIIs take care of it. Careful placement and getting the polarity right gives me a seamless transition and mix I can trust.
The monitor controller I use lets me sum to mono and switch the sub out without disturbing my mix.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
In my op, I should have said that I use headphones but mostly use my fairly decent ear buds. I found a really nice brand that I like and trust.
After watching the video, I decided to get a set of the Sony MDR 7506 cans. Amazon dropped them off tonight. I've been listening to my songs on them and I am fairly impressed with the range. My other cans are rolled off on the high end, hence the reason I prefer my buds. These Sony's are smooth all the way up without being harsh. I think I'm going to like them. Tomorrow I will test them out in the studio and see if they hold up well in there. I'm sure they will become my go-to for the near future.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
When I first heard a set of 7506s around 1989 or so it was on a well recorded orchestra. I could count the number of basses. Yes, accurate enough for me.
After a couple years of constant use (if you're lucky), the pads will start falling apart. Fortunately, the aftermarket has you covered.
Took a few hours to break these in but I have double the life I got from the originals and now all of my MDR 7506s have a pair.
What I don't mention in my review is that I have only one working hand due to a massive stroke 14 years ago. These pads just aren't that hard to install.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
I haven't owned a pair of MDRs this century. I did enjoy them when I had them but, again, headphones are an important part of recording & mixing though, except when mixing FOR headphones, not the key element. I've had to replace the pads on my Sennheizer pair twice now but they are still wonderful things.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
I'm a gear junkie I suppose, so I have way too much stuff, but I've been using Sony MDR-7506 cans since I got into recording about 10 years ago now. They're lightweight and work well when I record vocals. I've replaced the pads at least twice. I also have a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 250 ohm which are the cans I mostly use now for mixing/editing.
For general listening, YouTube, iTunes, Soundcloud, the Showcase, I have a pair of AKG K240 Studio semi-open headphones connected to a laptop via a Roland Quad-Capture interface. I originally picked them up for a different perspective on my mixes thinking the semi-open would help avoid the pitfalls of closed back headphones where everything sounds wonderful, full and detailed, but that sort of fell by the wayside.
i just ordered a pair of Grado prestige headphones. to compare with akg cans.
the problem as i see it, is, we all obsess over getting good mixes on superb 'monitoring gear ' BUT the wider population is listening on cheap grungy gear//earbuds etc etc. very few are useing big studio monitors or even auratones used by studios.
the above quandary has haunted me forever. as to best approach.
i'm super excited to try the Grados cos they come highly recommended.
i just ordered a pair of Grado prestige headphones. to compare with akg cans.
the problem as i see it, is, we all obsess over getting good mixes on superb 'monitoring gear ' BUT the wider population is listening on cheap grungy gear//earbuds etc etc. very few are useing big studio monitors or even auratones used by studios.
the above quandary has haunted me forever. as to best approach.
i'm super excited to try the Grados cos they come highly recommended.
best
om
The reason for using proper monitors is so you can be sure of what you're hearing, not the end user. It is really hard to make good mix decisions if your listening environment is not accurate. That is the biggest obstacle to making mixes that translate.
You do the best you can while listening to the most accurate representation you can get and then you have to let go. Once it gets out into the wild, all bets are off
Byron Dickens
BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency.
over the years in studios ive heard a lot of opinions from AE's in my trying to find the ideal solution. if one goes on the net the same.
this is a kinda interesting thread on gearspace cos it includes comments by the highly regarded Bob Ohlsson (motown ) on what the old studios used to use. notice the 'hi fi' comment from bob.
i just ordered a pair of Grado prestige headphones.
As usual, it would be nice if you provided context. You just described one of five different sets priced from $99 to $295. The Grados that the audiophiles go nuts over are generally in the $700 to $2,000 range.
Quote:
this is a kinda interesting thread on gearspace cos it includes comments by the highly regarded Bob Ohlsson (motown ) … bla, bla. bla…
Yea, he's talking about tiny control rooms with Altec A7? I'm guessing that you don't know what those are. No such thing as a tiny control room with a pair of A7s — well, the room may be tiny after they are installed, I suppose. I used them at AMPEX 50 years ago. Very popular PA speaker with 15" woofer when I was in high school and college. Reissues go for $4,500 but I can't imagine why anyone would use those monstrosities today.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
Put a pair of bass bins under that, and double it on the other side of the stage, and that was approximately what one of the bands I played in back in the day used in night clubs. What you have in the picture was our mids and highs in a triamped system. We had more monitor power and speakers than some bands were using for FOH. Those were some crazy days and nights.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Would those Kali's happen to be the IN-8's? Were your old ones also 8" monitors?
I have enough space in this room to accommodate 8" speakers, but I haven't really given my KRK G3 Rokit 5's a chance. So at the moment I'm just toying with the idea of upgrading. I want to see how easy or difficult the next mix goes with them.
Would those Kali's happen to be the IN-8's? Were your old ones also 8" monitors?
I have enough space in this room to accommodate 8" speakers, but I haven't really given my KRK G3 Rokit 5's a chance. So at the moment I'm just toying with the idea of upgrading. I want to see how easy or difficult the next mix goes with them.
Scott
Mine are the LP-8 V1 models. The primary reason I moved from our Rokit 5's was I'd tired of constantly having to listen to my mixes via our "living room" system and/or in our vehicle (Harman Kardon with a sub). The Rokits were reliable, very clean flat sound, etc., but the 5" woofers combined with my old ears simply did not give me sufficient low end feedback.
I use Nectar 3's "masking" feature to help the bass and kick drum cooperate in the mix and, as mentioned, did not want to constantly check it on another system.
Some of the Kali models get mixed reviews but at the time, last year, when I bought these the reviews from many sources were excellent and they were cheaper than my Rokits.
with respect i'm well aware of A7 'VOICE OF THE THEATRE" speakers. i heard a pair years ago , if i remember they were modified. some consider them the 'bees knees'.
for anyone interested , in the A7 speakers history and opinions..just google. its very interesting. —--------------------------------------------------------
All.
frankly i dont think there will ever be an end to the 'best monitor' debate. some people like brand X others dont and prefer brand Y…other people dont like X or Y and prefer brand Z…etc etc.
my current 'monitor love' is ADAMS. just something i cant put my finger on.
what i often wonder is today we worry about accuracy and flatness in our monitors , yet has anyone done a study in depth of how flat and accurate the monitors were in those old studios that did all those great old 60's hits ?
with respect i'm well aware of A7 'VOICE OF THE THEATRE" speakers. i heard a pair years ago , if i remember they were modified. some consider them the 'bees knees'.
for anyone interested , in the A7 speakers history and opinions..just google. its very interesting. —--------------------------------------------------------
All.
frankly i dont think there will ever be an end to the 'best monitor' debate. some people like brand X others dont and prefer brand Y…other people dont like X or Y and prefer brand Z…etc etc.
my current 'monitor love' is ADAMS. just something i cant put my finger on.
what i often wonder is today we worry about accuracy and flatness in our monitors , yet has anyone done a study in depth of how flat and accurate the monitors were in those old studios that did all those great old 60's hits ?
best
om
I had a recording operation in 1965 for which my business partner and I managed, booked and recorded garage bands (and attended college also). Yeah we emulated some of the sounds of the day but I can say unequivocally that I’d rather work with today’s technology. And with said technology you can IMO copy those old sounds if you like. Bottom line? It’s more fun sitting in front of my Mac than cutting and splicing tape for hours.
I don't think studios in the 40s - 60s really cared about "translation" beyond their target format of mono radio much. They were mixing for mono radio, gramophones, Dansettes and radiograms. The stereo/hifi market wasn't much considered...after all in 68 "The White Album" was still, largely, mixed in a weird hybrid somewhere between the early Beatles "stereo" and soundstage stereo and makes a very unsatisfying or well set up system in a good room experience but still sounds HUGE on a modest corner box. Consumer "stereo systems" were a 70s thing. Studio systems in the UK were often BIG, monster Tannoys and few studio mixing facilities used near field monitor, other than the mono check box, with the analytical luxury we enjoy. Being that there are so many places/machines to play music these days "translation" is important. What sounds great in good headphones may not in a room with good speakers or a room with a "stereo" blutooth can speaker etc. In other words your mix is only as good as your mix is away from where you mixed it. It really is a case of "Show Me The Money!" isn't it?
Last edited by rayc; 10/26/2207:37 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Bottom line? It’s more fun sitting in front of my Mac than cutting and splicing tape for hours.
Oh hell yes! I haven't cut a piece of tape since 1999, the year I went digital±—ten years before my left arm became incapacitated.
I own a Victorian house with The basement where analog goes to die. When I describe some of the gear down there, people tell me how much they think it's worth. Yea, right… I counter with, "How much will you give me for it?"
Silence.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
I counter with, "How much will you give me for it?"
Yes, there's an huge difference between what people are asking for a piece of old gear and what the "market" is prepared to pay. Many see the reverb & eBay asking prices as "THE" price. I have tonnes of old analogue quad, four channel and assorted audio gear. Last year I couldn't give away a 2 x 15" bass cab or a six channel mixer - I was lucky enough to find a musician who had a use for an old six channel 200 watt PA mixing board, (to be used as a foldback mixer/amp), much, much more is in cardboard boxes or crates.
Last edited by rayc; 10/29/2208:19 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
I finally decided to grab a pair of Kali Audio IN-5 3-way monitors. Don't have much to report, except that they are silent, no noise that I detected. Apparently that was an issue with the 1st generation IN's. Powered them on and listened to few reference tracks, but that's about it so far.
I considered the IN-8's, but after sifting through multiple reviews on YouTube and given the size and setup of my spare room studio, the 5" monitors are the better option.
I finally decided to grab a pair of Kali Audio IN-5 3-way monitors. Don't have much to report, except that they are silent, no noise that I detected. Apparently that was an issue with the 1st generation IN's. Powered them on and listened to few reference tracks, but that's about it so far.
I considered the IN-8's, but after sifting through multiple reviews on YouTube and given the size and setup of my spare room studio, the 5" monitors are the better option.
I went from JRK 5’s to Kali 8’s last summer and love them. No longer do I have to check the bass in my mixes on the living room system or in the vehicles. But I do not use cans for mixing (I did during my analogue recording days in the 60’s and 70’s).
And after reading your comments on the matter, Bud, I almost went with the IN 8's, but I'm mixing a song on the IN 5's now, and they seem just fine. Plenty loud if I turn it up and I can hear the low end fairly well. For me, the key is to get a good reference track early on.
Anyway, here they are in all their glory, provided the photo posted.
$299 includes a few rooms, add-ons available — or $499 to get everything.
40+ years ago, I had a set of Koss ‘phones that sounded exactly like mixing on a pair of JBL 4311s. Unfortunately, those mixes sounded terrible on everything else.
Anyway, I’m tempted — but only if I can insert the plug-in in my interface chain instead of my DAW. I know this is possible on a Mac but I’ve not done it yet.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
$299 includes a few rooms, add-ons available — or $499 to get everything.
40+ years ago, I had a set of Koss ‘phones that sounded exactly like mixing on a pair of JBL 4311s. Unfortunately, those mixes sounded terrible on everything else.
Anyway, I’m tempted — but only if I can insert the plug-in in my interface chain instead of my DAW. I know this is possible on a Mac but I’ve not done it yet.
I saw that advertised on my Facebook feed just yesterday. They even have headphone emulation....AND Mike Dean's car emulation....
VSX Headphones
Steven Private Mix Room Sonoma Studios Archon Studios NRG Studios Zuma Studios Mike Dean Studios Mike Dean's Car Howie Weinberg Studios LA Club Audiophile Room Boombox Luxury SUV Car Electric Car 650 Headphones Model LCD Headphones Model 770 Headphones Model M50 Headphones Model Pod Headphones Model HD Linear 1 & 2
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I'm no expert here, but I use both. Sometimes headphones give the the ability to listen to critical nuances in a recording, including the ability to detect artifacts that might not be obvious. Monitors give the ability to listen to the production as a whole including balance, levels, quality, fidelity, mix and more.
Both are versatile tools, but I think that good quality monitors take precedence in deciding on a final production.
I fully agree here. I really only use headphones when recording or to check a mix, but I do all my work using good monitors (Mackie HR824 mk1's, and a pair of Rokit 5's as backup).
Originally Posted By: sslechta
Same, and I also check the mix in the car.
YES. It's always good to check your mix in the worst possible environment - most cars fall at the bottom of the list.
Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran
After a couple years of constant use (if you're lucky), the pads will start falling apart.
Most brands will do this. I've had my M50's for 9 years now and had to replace the pads once - not bad.
Originally Posted By: Byron Dickens
The reason for using proper monitors is so you can be sure of what you're hearing, not the end user. It is really hard to make good mix decisions if your listening environment is not accurate. That is the biggest obstacle to making mixes that translate.
You do the best you can while listening to the most accurate representation you can get and then you have to let go. Once it gets out into the wild, all bets are off
To some extent this is correct, however the key is in knowing your equipment VERY well. Some people use their studio monitors and studio headphones only when mixing, and use something else for casual listening - this can easily lead to a bad mix, as you're not used to the sound of your monitors or headphones. I use my main monitors for casual listening for hours a day, which makes it MUCH easier to notice problems in the mix than if I used a different sound system. This is also why checking your mix in the car is a good idea, providing you spend a lot of time listening to tunes in your car.
Making your listening environment more accurate will always help, but not as much as knowing your monitors. There are limitations of course - if your monitors can't produce bass below 100hz or treble above 8khz, then you can't hear those frequencies to know whether they sound good or not.
I did go to the Slate VSX system last year and figured out how to use it on a Mac without adding the VSX plug-in to Digital Performer or Logic—disliked the fact that I had to remove it from my DAW before bouncing. Of course, this means that it works for BIAB, too.
I still prefer to do my rough mixes on my (unfortunately discontinued) Equator D8 IIs with a JBL sub but for the final mix and mastering, I've been very happy with the VSX and found the $499 well spent. That they are extremely comfortable to wear is icing on the cake.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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For us all is done with our Kali studio monitors (8" woofer). They have adjustments that allow consideration of closeness to walls, distance from you, etc.
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