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I'm new to this forum, and only a few months into BiaB, but this seems like a mostly friendly group, so I'll throw this out. I am benefiting immensely from BiaB's ability to comp my practices and to add color to songs where I can't do it myself. The internal algorithms are advanced and creative, and the program's engine is to be commended. HOWEVER.....BiaB appears to be Ford Focus frame on a Ferrari engine. (Sorry for being blunt, but that's exactly the metaphor that comes to mind when I load the program. I'm not trying to offend.)

Leaving aside the time warp to the early 90s that the UX offers, there are just too many usability quirks and inconsistencies with mainstream user interface standards. Example: everytime I want to save a file, I have to scan the (24!) options under the File menu to find Save. (Comes after Karaoke options - really?) Cutting and pasting usually leads to unanticipated results. The list could go on and on. And yes, I know there are shortcuts and key equivalents for all of these to be learned, but as a 21st century software user, I have an expectation that the program should be 85% usable out of the box w/o instructions. BiaB gets about a 40% score based on my exerience.

While I'm satisfied with what the program accomplishes, I'm dissastified with the amount of work I have to do. I can't in all good conscience recccomend BiaB to a prospective buyer either. It's simply too hard to use. Frankly, I use the program b/c it's effective, but I heave a sigh of resignation when I click the icon (and hold my breath that it doesn't crash while generating Realtracks.)

At some point, PG will have to bite the bullet and do a complete remake of the look and feel, and I vote sooner rather than later. Otherwise, fans will leave and new customers will be hard to acquire. Believe me, I know how hard this is - I've been in the technology industry for some time. Long-term loyal users will rightly howl that they need to change habits, customer support costs will skyrocket for a while, developers will be diverted from new features to usabilty designing, etc. Been there. But I also know it has to be done.

FWIW, here at a minimum is what I would change, and I invite others to chime in:

-Contextual icons: over 1/3 of my screen space is occupied by buttons, most of which I rarely use. I just counted 76 button icons, not including the instrument and playback options. BiaB should know what I'm doing and present me with only options that are relevant to the task at hand. (Yes, the icons can be hidden, but that's not the point; it's about enhancing workflow at each step of the process). One possibility is the use of tabs - this has become common in many programs, and almost all browsers, so there will be a less steep learning curve.


-The instrument selection radio icons continue to baffle: I can click Strings and yet add a MIDI generated percussion instrument, or a Banjo realtrack, and the option still says "Strings." This is an area where a more traditional DAW approach may be in order, with tracks lanes, and more easily customizable track names.


-Use wizards instead of menu dialogs. The buttons on most dialog boxes are dense, and often lack logical flow. Example, the notation dialog box. Formatting options are presented alongside transposing options, sandwiched in between guitar chord options. Takes a lot of reorienting myself with every dialog box that is open. This is one area where consitency is paramount. Give me tabs with my options, and let me find only what I need, and make the tabs the same across every dialog box.


-There must be a reason why BiaB doesn't write to the Windows registry, but I don't know what it is. This makes BiaB not play well with my system and I suspect is the reason for a lot of instability and frequent crashes. I'd suggest reevaluting this policy.

-General lack of graphic enhancement. In this era, people expect the graphics to be engaging, intuitive, exciting and useful. I can't say this about BiaB's UX presentation layer.


Don't get me wrong, I admire the program and would like to see it stay around. However, I fear that over time it will fade into the night along with its loyal long term users. A newer generation of users will be put off by an archaic interface, and find something else. I think that would be a shame. That is the intent of this posting and I hope it is taken in that light.

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There is truth in what you are saying. The overall look is rather old fashioned. And the multitude of buttons are confusing, for a while. Some of this is due to the fact that the program is unique. There is no other program, the only close competition pales in comparison.

The idea you had on track lanes is a decent one, IF this was a DAW, but it is not, it is based on the concept of a chords screen, and the fact that it has a list at the top for the tracks is that it is giving you some adjustment for the backing tracks generated. It may still say strings, but right above it it tells you what real track it generated. If you want track lanes use RealBand, it IS a DAW. And you can rename any track you want.

What i worry about is stability, and adding new fancy graphics, and users tools, plus more coding for these could potentially make it more buggy. I have almost zero crashes with my system. RT generation is solid now. It could get a basic facelift alright, but i for one would hate to see it's overall functionality change much.

Yes it could look a bit better, but as far as suggesting this program to others, i do often, and some have said it looks old, but once they see what it does, they all get a different view of it. This program flat out works, and once you bump around it for a while it is not so confusing. It is actually very simple to use.

People have been predicting failure for the program due to it's graphics for a long time, but it keeps on selling, and selling and growing. I agree some modernization is needed, but I want slow changes. I have seen what happens when program keep piling on the features and fancies. (Sonar) The forum there is filled with complaints over waht is still not working, and it has a nice crisp new look. And still folks come there constantly griping about the graphics. Can't please everyone no matter what it looks like.


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I'd say a more appropriate metaphor is that of a 1980's Ford Escort Engine in a Model T body. The latter I can live with for some unknown reason, but it's the engine that worries me the most. And yes the amount of knock on effects from changes prompts one to say 'leave it alone' as from recent experience there's no telling what can go wrong with BIAB when new things are added. if there's to be any fundamental rethink I suspect it's going to have to involve recoding the entire program from the ground up.

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Alan

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I agree with Robh. Why a fundamental rethink for BIAB when Real Band will function like you want? Thousands of us love BIAB for it's main function - automatic regenerating accompaniment. Everything else is gravy. Later, Ray


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I bought a Mini Cooper. They put the retro speedometer circle in the middle for old times sakes. Sometimes old is new.

I was in a bar and between sets someone requested a song. It's a country song. The guy is using what he admits is a dated older version of band in a box, 2 speakers on poles, one monitor a power mixer and an acoustic guitar with output. One mic. He walks over to the laptop, enters 20 chords, 3 repeats, and 30 seconds later runs it through one verse on headphones, comes back finishes a beer, and does the song which sounded really good.

Guy never bought band in a box in his life and says to me,...what do I need newer stuff for it works great. I never even needed a manual.

Wowser.


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I alos am a new user, but have been around for many years. I have been using sequencers fopr decades and have a heavyweight Cubase studio. I must agree that BIAB is like a Ferrari in a Ford Escort chassis - its a truly fantastic breakthrough program with Real Styles and very useful in other ways too.

But.... the GUI is confusing and odd. I can see why its 'endearing' to some but a ground up rethink is in order now. Why two programs? WHy Real Band AND BIAB.

I must admit I dont really know the program well, but to me, and I guess to others, its confusing, even though I have been around a while with DAWS. Its like an application with bits added on, and bits added on to the bits, and bits added on to the bits of the bits...

I LOVE it though...more real styles please...


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+1 for the initial post of masondr, except for the registry thing. I love the ability to run BIAB from a portable hdd. The use of ini files is crucial for this.


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I've used BIAB for many years and I'm very used to it. I would hope that if there is a change in the GUI, the option to retain the old GUI is there. I don't know of any decent music program that doesn't have a learning curve. Later, Ray

Last edited by raymb1; 07/09/10 04:49 AM.
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Well for a start 3/4 of the screen is the chord sheet, no way around that and I like it that way.

If you feel that the look is outdated there are options to use different colours, might help if there were a few different themes made or users knew how to make their own.

Although I ask questions often on the forum, I don't feel that biab has a steep learning curve unles you want to use things like the stylemaker, to be honest I have never read the manual, in fact I think for a newbie starting to read the manual will make things seem more difficult than they really are.

Joe

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Why two programs? WHy Real Band AND BIAB.

Because they are for different purposes. RB is a Sequencing program for recording, it does allow some generation features of BiaB, but it is a Sequencer, or recording studio if you will.

BiaB is for auto accompaniment generation and live playback, quick design, not really a full on recording studio at all!


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I'm a long time user and also like the look and functionality the way it is. Sometimes I'll use different views, like scrolling melody or fake sheet, but mostly I use the main page with the chords on 2/3 of the screen, the big lyrics (or lyrics document) wind on 1/3, and the visable keyboard turned off. So for my purposes there are plenty of options to fit my needs. Also I don't want to go through a learning curve and the many tweek updates to follow. If it is in the planning stages, I would support the person's suggestion that this original gui is an option.

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RbH,
With respect to you..

Real Band is a sequencer, but so is BIAB. You could say Real band is accompaniment software, but its still a sequencer of sorts. You can record in both.


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I've used biab for 3 years now and I love it to bits. I wouldn't change it too much as many users who've been loyal since the start could just as easily hate any major changes. Over the 3 years, my site reading has improved enormously. I'm playing stuff I wouldn't have dreamt of not that long ago.
If it ain't broke...Don't fix it !

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I understand what you are saying ZZ, but also with all respect, you are missing the point. BiaB was never built as a recording studio type sequencer. It was designed to arrange accompaniment tracks automatically by style sets, and a recordable track was added to accomodate folks who wanted to add one audio track to the arrangement. The solo and melody tracks can also hold some stuff but were developed to add generated solos and melodies. One of the key features that BiaB has that is very different from recording studio software is the ability to rearrange the file everytime you hit play. That is fundamental to what it is, and also very unfundamental to recording in general.

Realband however is a new product based very closely on Powertracks, and for all intents and purposes it is Powertracks, a true recording studio software package. It was build from the ground up as a recording studio with 48 tracks. It has some of the BiaB arrangement features added so one could open BiaB files, and generate RTs and RDs in the tracks. But it has all the same features as PTPA, including the tracks view and the Mixer view. It has all the effects and slots for mixing and processing that a true studio needs. It is a full on recording studio audio/midi sequencer, and BiaB is not. I truly doubt PG plans on morphing BiaB into one program with PTPA, cause they already have, and it is called RealBand. I suspect that the development for RB and BiaB will continue for years to come. BiaB will continue to develop as it has in the same direction. BiaB is used both by those who use it to auto arrange by style and those who use it to generate live backing tracks. Rb will slowly develop as a full fledged recording studio, with some nice basic arrangement features. Really bringing both worlds together, and PTPA will most likely stay a simple easy lightweight DAW.


So BiaB is a arrangement program with limited recording capability, and Rb is a recording studio with limited arrangement capability. I beleive the drop and drag features bear out that the two shall remain the same for at least a long time. They have built a bridge for the two to meet at.


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Hi,

I registered to the forum just to reply to this post.
I've used BIAB way in the past, and I've come back to it just this year.
Seeing the user interface nearly drove me to tears.

What is keeping you from updating it? It looks and feels as if development was never done against any sort of planning. Hard decisions seem to have been put off, investments have not been made.

Can you tell me, how much time do you spend keeping the old stuff alive in changing environments? How often did you think "if only I had chosen the newer path 5 years ago, I could now easily do this and that, and make the program look shiny and fresh..." And that growing group of Mac users that complain of the differences between the Mac and Windows versions.. porting could be so easy! The new platforms that mobile devices offer... ah, but that is not even about the UI..

You could make use of a GENERATION (it's 2011!) of new insights in how to build a user interface, how to organize code, install, distribute, etc..

Are you just not aware? Is it that you are afraid of something? Are you just unable to set aside the time and money? I can't believe you wouldn't give a ***. How long do you think you can rely on the comments of your long time customers like the ones above, who have aged along with your program? Do you read other threads, where people complain about not getting their money's worth with an upgrade? Is the interface part of their complains? Or do you rely on those loyal clients who fork out the cash and spend time to defend that it was worth it once again. You survived Microsofts funny Songsmith-experiment, my guess is the next time they or another big software company seriously try, it's all over for BIAB.

PLEASE! Update the user interface. Do it for this new generation of users, that may open up to the music styles that you provide, that they never hear on the radio. Do it to help keep the practice of playing musical instruments alive, rather than seeing more and more people "do it all" from the computer. Do it because you know that even though they like it, you are still fooling those clients who just don't realize what a fresh interface would do for them.

Above all, do it because you owe it to yourself. Recognize that this program is too good to grow old and die of some compatibility issue that you just can't solve anymore.
If you don't know how, get help!

Eddy

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I really like the interface. I find it very efficient to use and I like having having so many options readily on hand. For my needs, it's designed perfectly. I see the layout as neither old nor modern. To me, it's simply highly functional.

Noel

Last edited by Noel96; 01/14/11 02:34 PM.

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At the risk of going wayyy out on a limb, here, I have a prediction:

2011.5 will be, 'as per usual.'

2012 will be ONE program, perhaps called "RealBand in a Box," which will have a whole new slick configurable 21st-century interface, and will combine both programs, seamlessly.

Or am I just dreaming again.

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I wouldn't mind, but I'm not the majority.
I find RB SOOOO much more intuitive. I find myself clicking all over the place in BiaB to find what I want to do. This is why I spend as little time in BiaB as possible before moving the project to RB. I know many here have grown accustomed to the menus, but I don't think it is intuitive for newer users.
Just my humble view.


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I think that this post is morphing a bit, but here goes. As far as my post before, well i was not addressing the user interface as much as the wish that PG scrap both BiaB and Rb development and build something brand new and pour both programs in a blender and pour out a new one. It just seems rather selfish to ask a company to abandon their whole program in favor of a half dozen people who want it their way.

As far as my growing old with BiaB, i have only used it for 3 years now. I will admit that the user interface and GUi is rather old fashioned. But that thing flat out works, and is pretty darned solid. Sonar is struggling with their new look and i do not want to see PG go that route. If they want to clean it up a tad great. Give it a modern new look but not a full rewrite. I do not want to go through years of pain to do a job.

So what it does not look great, does it work? Personally i like function over flash. I do not think PTPA, or Rb are fancy or great looking, but they work. Make it strong, make it solid, make it functional, make it stable. Fix the VSTi issues, and all that. Yes maybe slowly overhaul the interface and make it a bit more user friendly, but for God's sake do not completely redo it at the loss of stability.

If a new user wants a fancy 21st century look over full function, then he might be wanting the wrong things. I listen to people on DAW forums all the time prattle on about wanting this and that, but seldom see them actually record anything. How could they they spend all there time fussing. Use the tool if it works. If you do not like the product use something else.

On a personal level, there are things i would like to see done with the program, that would enhance my work flow, but hey it is not all about me, there are users around the globe, that all do things differently. It is my choice what i use.


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+100


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Robh, Raymb1,

Can you show the rest of us where you got the numbers?
Apparently you guys have access to information on the number of users who like the program to remain as it is, and the much smaller number of users who want changes. Rob, you even go so far as to say that you yourself have wishes, but you think you are a minority? Apart from the fact that each of you are just one person like everybody else, where are the figures to back up your claims?

Personally I find the comparison of BIAB or RB to Sonar a tad arrogant. The PG programs are not in the same league as the big DAWs are. PG products compare to DAWs as skelters compare to sportscars. (Video anyone?)
And that's forgetting that Cakewalk DID add functionality AND managed to make their DAW evolve with computer standards. They do use the registry, they do use context-sensitive menus, etc. etc. The complaining users over at the Cakewalk forums seem to be at a different level of computer literacy altogether, is my strong impression.

Another thing that I find confusing is the assumption Robh makes that improvements inevitably lead to years of pain to do a job, and loss of stability.. why is that? Are you suggesting that improvements are altogether impossible, or are you suggesting PG Music is incapable of doing a major upgrade without messing it up?

As you may have noticed, the complaints are not about flash over function. Everyone recognizes the value of parts generation by BIAB. What we just don't get is why having parts generation requires us to enter early-90s-UI-Hell.

People make suggestions to improve this software, and they should be taken seriously. How about a list of suggestions, and a poll to vote for them. If PG could step up and promise to implement the features that get the most votes, that would be great!

Oh and Rob, you don't become a veteran forum user by recording music...

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Phave,

I am one of the biggest proponents of certain changes in the GUI, largely relating to menus and essential features. I agree with what you have to say in that regard.

On the other hand, one thing that sets PG's fora apart from others--notably Cakewalk's--is that it is a very friendly community. Personal remarks are uncalled for, especially when one has little experience in the community.

FYI, Robh is a "veteran" by virtue of the forum software itself, which assigns these labels. Personally, I giggle when I see the label "Expert" under my name. "I am only an egg."

Wishing you a happy future here and with PG products,

Richard


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Richard (Ryszard) makes a good point that new posters sometimes do not realize: the forum software assigns the ratings/titles under our names automatically. It's based only on the number of posts we make.

We can't even be a self-appointed 'expert' or 'beginner' around here; we are only what the forum software says we are. Even those titles that we have are skewed, because PG Music changed the forum software in 2000, and we long-timers started over with post counts of zero.

One recent positive change is that we high-count posters are no longer "Team PG - whatever" which I consider to be a good change since nothing I ever said represents PG Music. Now I'm just a 'veteran', even though I'm not a veteran. Oh, well.


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Richard, Matt,

Thanks for the remarks, I'll try to be a bit nicer.
I am aware that the titles are given automatically according to the number of posts you put up. In this case, my remark was specifically targeted at the following part of Robh's post:

QUOTE
I listen to people on DAW forums all the time prattle on about wanting this and that, but seldom see them actually record anything. How could they they spend all there time fussing. Use the tool if it works. If you do not like the product use something else.
UNQOUTE

If you think like this about people with a lot of posts under their belt, what does that mean for your own status as a poster? And what does it say to all the posters above who try to make a heartfelt point regarding functionality and the user interface of BIAB? Stop whining and live with it? In my view, it is this kind of dismissive posting that kills a fruitful discussion. Hence my questions to Rob and Raymb1.. if you make claims of any kind, please back them up....

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Eddy, first off, my comparision to Sonar is in that i have been using Cakewalk products since the late 90s. I have seen them struggle to keep up with the nonstop barage of request for changes that the forum clamors for. I have also seen the product become less stable rather than more stable. I do think Sonar is a very powerful app, that is designed to compete with the big names in the industry. But whether you personally have issues with the new X-1 there are a Ton of issues being discussed over there, and many can't be dismissed as just user error.

Sonar is a great program, but there was a ground swell movement to get Cake to make major changes to the GUI, and user interface. Programs like Presonus studio 1 was tossed around as a model, Reaper was thrown out as the holy grail, Cubase was used as a measuring stick. X-1 is great looking and for many fairly stable, but for many almost unusable as well. These are not newbies that have never used Sonar, but Vets that have 8.5.3 working smoothly (finally, after several patches) What they got was a program with many design flaws that will take several patches to iron out, and maybe it will not be done until version 2. Hopefully all will go well, but it has cost them. I for one do not want to be forced down that path with PG, just because a group of newer users want it to look like something they are more familiar with. While i understand the desire to have BiaB look and function like a program these folks prefer, is that really fair to the ones who have been hear longer and are comfortable with the existing program?

PG's Sequencers namely PTPA and RB are not in some ways as sophisticated as Sonar, maybe from a pure DAW feature standards, but in their own right they do an awful lot. the BiaB feature in Rb are a complete world until itself and Sonar, Cubase, ProTools, Logic, Reaper, nor any other program on the market is even close to that.

PTPA was never designed as a top of the line top dollar DAW. It was rather a cut above entry level in price, and bargin product with some very niffty features for the money. A product you could buy and use to polish up the BiaB generated projects, or record simple audio midi projects. PG does not even address video, that is another world. If you read over at Sonar, it's video capabilities pale in comparison to other video products.

As far as writing to registry, that is a PG decision, that involves allowing the program to have a very small footprint, and allow for it to be housed on a external hard drive so people can use it on either a laptop or a desktop. It also allows for quick updates and patches. Quick re-installs in the case of problems. It is a fundamental for PG, and i doubt they want to change that, but if they do well we will see.

As far as the numbers, i have no actual numbers, but what i go on is that fact that PG has a very loyal user base and from what i have read here since joining, the vast majority are happy with the program. I would bet that almost all would love to see a slow make over of the programs to a more modern computer look, but doubt seriously that the majority would like a full overhaul. Any Program of this type has to deal with bugs and issues with each new release, Sonar, Cubase, Reaper, PTPA. RB, BiaB, all of them have bug patches, and fixes during the year. If you go with a major overhaul you will add to that issue greatly. Sure I have confidence that PG can handle it. But do all of us want to go thru that? Really!


I use the program three of four times a week as time allows. What i like is I can open it up and knock out a project quickly, i do not have to relearn it and I am sure I am not alone in that view. Whatever changes PG decides i hope that it does not include a total make over that will fundamentally alter the program. I also see what you are talking about, in that some change would be good, slow change that does not subject long time users to completely having to change their process. Simpler menus, a modern look, and such would be cool.

As far as me being a forum vet. If you are incinuating that i spend more time posting than using the program you are wrong. In the last three months i have pounded out three original tunes, and 50 cover tunes for playing live. All mixed and mastered in RB. I post during breaks at work mostly, i use the program at night, when at home and on weekends. I participate in the forum because i learn a lot from other long time users.

I did not attack you, but some how what i said made you mad. I appologize for that, but you want to be mad cause i do not agree with you. I want to see PG grow at a reasoanble pace. But a strongly resist tha notion of a rapid morphing of the two very successful programs into some hybrid. Actually that is exactly waht RB is, and people want more and faster progress i guess. lets be real here for a minute, Rb still has some issues that have not been resolved, with VSTi, with little things like the Juke box, and such let's fix those before launching a full rewrite.

Respectfully Rob


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Rob,

Thank you for your reply. I respect your opinion, and the way you voice it.
I took your remark on people "prattling on" in other forums as a description of what was going on in this thread. You concluded that with "If you don't like the product, use something else". Frankly, with that attitude, you do not want to post on a wish list thread.

Your last reply makes me aware that you do care, and that you do allow for change, just not in big chunks that could make the program unstable, and that could require users to relearn the program.

All fine by me, in my mind rethinking the software, stability and keeping an eye on your user base are three different things. One doesn't exclude the other. Or to put it differently: software stability is always a must-have, and whenever you redo something you need to give attention to what that means for your users.

I'm supposing a professional software-company here, so I may have assumed some things self-evident. I will try to avoid that in the future.

Best regards,
Eddy

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Yeah i definately mis said a couple things. One issue that i struggle with with PG is that there seems to be some small issues inherient with the base code. I.E. the reason VSti only partially works. What i mean is that any VSti that requires times control, like say jamstix will not work. This has been a request for about three years. So my assumption is that at it's base code, in PTPA and RB by inheritance factor this is a problem. So I am leary of big changes until those things are addressed. Maybe i am wrong and a total rewrite isneeded, but so far the program works less a couple issues.

The second most said deep level gripe is a lot of new users want to scrap BiaB and Rb in favor of a program that is inherantly both in one. I personally think that is a rather bad idea, since there are many users that never even use RB, and some that seldom use BiaB. Those two worlds are softly married in RB, and to force everyone to learn a new hybrid is not fair to older users who have no need.

I think with patience, and a bit of time Rb will be that product. We ahve to remember that it is only in it's third real year, and has grown a lot. The very fact that Rb does what it does makes it a very serious DAW. EVEn the giants, Samplitude, Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic, and Sonar can't begin to touch the BiaB features in RB. The fact is only Mixcraft even begins to add auto generation to the base code of a Sequencer, and that is nothing but a light weight looping tool built in, and not even close to RT/RD generation.

RB is lacking in Pure DAW sophistication when view along side Sonar, but it is suffering from far less growning pains, and the fix list is short. Give it three more solid years and i bet it will suprise you. Remember where Sonar was 6 years ago.


Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, open dialog is good on the forum, and if anything i said was demining or condesending, or even aggressive I appologize. I hope you continue to contribute and share your ideas and thoughts here. Oh don't forget to record more than you post! We don't need anymore Veteran talkers around here!!


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I don't mind the idea that "banjo" or "organ" might go on a "strings" track, because it's still based on the idea that you're adding a miscellaneous instrument to an otherwise-standard arrangement. However, the idea that one might add ONLY one miscellaneous instrument is limiting. I wouldn't call the program overall difficult to use, but there are staggering obstacles to workflow.

And to the rest of you, saying "No, if you change anything, you'll break it": stop sympathizing with your kidnappers. You paid for it, and they're coming after you every year asking for upgrade dollars. Expect your money's worth. It's 70% of a great program, and it's stubborn about fixing that infuriating other 30%.

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If there was one thing I could ask from PG (individually and collectively) it would be for transparency--especially on this subject. (Note that I am not asking, although I am very curious.)

My thinking is that there are very good reasons for what is and is not done with BIAB. I am sure that a lot of the advancements are driven by marketing, and that a lot of what doesn't happen is determined, first by what resources are left over after taking care of market-driven priorities, then by technical limitations. That's just a guess.

Offhand, I can't think of another company that is responsive to the degree that PG is. I know that we are taken seriously. If you have been around long enough you know that many suggestions made here are incorporated as new features. A lot of them. If you haven't been here that long, hand around and watch.

Apart from my rant about Rewire, I have probably been most vociferous in my call for a rework of what everyone in this discussion agrees is a cluttered interface. Specifically, I would like for users to be able to create a customized menu of Essential Features, and not have to wade through the rest.

That's nice. I buy a new version about once very three years (and use maybe 5% of the features available). How much attention should they pay to me, as opposed to a pool of institutions who are buying multiple multi-user licenses on a regular basis?

So I'm torn. I want "my" feature because it is important to me. On the other hand, I BIAB has wrought a revolution in my musical life and. PG have certainly never disappointed me. In fact, they have delighted me in some unexpected way with each iteration.

Patience, Grasshopper.


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I've used BIAB for a little over a year now, currently have 2010.5 and it is a stable, workhorse of a program that delivers the goods. The user interface could use some improvements, I will concede that point, but as others have stated, I hope that PGMusic does not give us a bug filled crash monster with a great user interface.

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It's funny, because I think that in some ways PG is responsive, but in other ways not. And one of the ways in which they are not is highlighted by your desire for customization: a lot of great software is that which the developers realize that is going to be used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people, and that some of those ways will not have been foreseen by the developers. BIAB is not good at allowing flexibility in ways of doing things. See my thread on "VST Patch Changes" for an example that's given me some degree of frustration. On another forum, I compared this to Microsoft Office, which I often feel lets me do everything in the world except the _exact_ thing I'm trying to do. And it's not really about wanting "my" feature: I want options. For everybody. There aren't many new features I want at this point: just take the existing features, and realize that some users will like part of the feature and dislike/be unable to use part of it, and allow the user to select HOW that feature is used, instead of just whether it's available or not.

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Interesting thread and valid points on all sides. I speak from the POV that this is a compositional tool, not a DAW and so it might be worthwhile to consider this as the basic engine and not worry as much about the GUI, dated as it is.
Where else can I go to enter 6 or 8 chords and a style , play this and see if it's close to what I have in my head or get fresh ideas on what I'm working on.Since I don't play an instrument, I'd be lost without this feature.
I'm not saying the interface doesn't bug me at times but a new one would take a learning curve as well.
I seem to remember a thread that talked about the programming language used, (Python maybe) and this I believe is the basis for the current look of BIAB.
I'd like to see a simpler way of style development because I don't see the midi styles keeping up with what "I" want, but that's just me
I have yet to explore all of BIAB, I just use what I need at the time and I've had the program for years.
I've got Sonar 8.5.3 and have tried Reaper, there's good for what they do but BIAB & RB work well,as is for me. Two cents and change, Wyndham

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BIAB has been in existence since the early 1990s. Obviously there have to be thousands of users for the company to stay in business. As I've stated before, BIAB is great for MY purposes. My interface is not cluttered as only the buttons I use are showing. In my experience, there aren't very many programs that are "intuitive". There's always a learning curve, just as there are no shortcuts to becoming a good musician. There are a few cosmetic changes that could be done, but the fundamental purpose for which BIAB was created should not be changed. That purpose being automatic accompaniment. Everything else that has been added is a plus. Later, Ray

P.S. There are over 16,000 registered on the forum. Probably many more who are BIAB users and are not on the forum.

Last edited by raymb1; 01/20/11 12:40 PM.

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Thanks for the reply, I got a better idea of where you're coming from. I will continue to post, am learning a lot as it is. Biggest worry is that I may join the ranks of the veterans sooner than I thought..

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You are most welcome. I've had a lot help over the years from the vets on this forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum who can help with any problem. Keep on posting your ideas and suggestions. PG Music does listen. Later, Ray


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Deleted. Wrong thread...

Last edited by allis; 01/21/11 03:36 PM.

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There are a lot of great graphics program. I hear over and over the graphics user interface is old and out of date. I'd lover to see how someone who knows new gui's think it should look, and maybe if you understand java you can make it so it has nice menus that pull down and stuff. I know the current one does that in a very old fashioned way. I suspect someone like Super Mario will do a Victor Borge type of thing at the start and talk with a funny accent and change outfits when the style changes. We are Canadian so don't expect Mexican styles to feature a guy dressed as a gardener, here he picks apples ok?

Now down to the gritty, we need a scrolling piano window, a Lead sheet window, a window for entering notes, one for chords. And we need it to scroll in time and note based lyrics on the window. And a menu for melody manipulation, solos, and the standard File menu and submenus and wait, I'm thinking a program I have does that, with buttons for stuff. I think what they need to do is make fancy wee radio buttons at the top that say whatever based on what you choose, so that if you put a fiddle on the piano track instead of saying piano it says fiddle, on the button not underneath. Now that we have that tackled we can do it for each of the buttons, and each is a feature and each sub-feature. Cool. Let's charge 99$ for an update. Wait, the program still does the same stuff, is it legal to make people pay more for it? Hey the car industry does it.


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Hi you all

Haven't been on the forum for long, but this is really a recurring subject.

Been using BIAB only since 2005, started on PC. I'm a basic user of BIAB, only for jazz composing and making accompaniment tracks, I never use it for anything else. I'm always amazed at what certain people can do with BIAB.

That being said, I find everything I need in the interface the way it is now. Hell, in the MAC version you can't even choose which button to keep, they're always there. (or did I miss an option ?).

True, the interface does have an oldie look to it, but it doesn't bother me a bit. I can get to were I want, with buttons, menus, or a right click. There are some parts of the interface that I never notice, 'cause I don't need them. I am probably missing a lot BIAB potential, but it works well for what I have to do. In the future, if PG wants to change their interface, I still don't mind. New interface to learn, no sweat, as long as I get the same results. But it can stay the way it is as far as I'm concerned.


Best of all and hope your day is a nice one

Pierre

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I think the wife needs a new interface. She's so 70's. I look at pics of that smooth face and fair complexion and think, na, I traded in the old wife for wild times on the bit of cash she and the lawyer didn't take and ended up married again. I think I've learned to put up with the old interface, I understand when to shut up. This isn't one of those days when I should talk at home. I'm doing supper and she's bouncing around with a vacuum cleaner and rags.....


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as a new user to 2011 biab i still dont understand
the yapping bout the current interface.
it took me all of an hour , in fact less to gen some traks/songsup n running.
now it all just makes sense to me.
i think it behooves people that critique the interface
to actually show design pics of their "better interface"
so that the rest of us can comment on it.
if i see a goodie i'll be the first to vote for it.
as an ex developer myself i see lots of snazzy interfaces
these days which often dont do much for me in a practical sense.
in fact i hear from users of lots of different software
these days that "the snazzies" are often more bloat and
often not what users want.
apologies for my strong feelings on the subject
n mebe others dont concur.
just my viewpoint.


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Quote:

There are a few cosmetic changes that could be done, but the fundamental purpose for which BIAB was created should not be changed.



well said raymb 1

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1. Make the thing scalable. That's the first thing everybody asks for (unless it's happened since 2009).

2. For me, I want to be able to customize the menus so I don't have to see the 50%-plus of the commands I never use. This could be done (a) in the Options dialog, where I check/uncheck menu items I want displayed, or (b) via a "Personalized Menu" feature such as in Windows where it 'learns' your habits and displays only the most frequently used entries.

I assume no pics are needed for either of the above.

Perhaps others will chime in. I do know that one or more users has submitted a simulated screen shot of what they were talking about.

Richard


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I use the little triangles at the far right to delete the buttons I don't need. Later, Ray


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Quote:

1. Make the thing scalable. That's the first thing everybody asks for (unless it's happened since 2009).

2. For me, I want to be able to customize the menus so I don't have to see the 50%-plus of the commands I never use.

Richard




Your score is 100%.

1. happened in 2010. Upgrade your copy if you want it. Just drag the window to size and leave it. It re-opens at the same size and position next time, on a secondary monitor if you like. Godsend, as far as it goes.

2. has been available for quite a few more years and is yours already in ver. 2009. Do as Ray suggests to hide unwanted goofy icons. Another godsend.


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I only have 3 or 4 icons on the screen. The rest hide. And I scale the thing (except so far lead sheets), so that they lyrics are on the right 1/4 and the rest to the left.


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Quote:

I use the little triangles at the far right to delete the buttons I don't need. Later, Ray




I've been using BIAB for 10 years now and never new I could could that. Thanks!

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I use BIAB (really only since version 2009) for composition and then sonar 8.5 studio for recording and DAW work. I should learn how to use RB, because I bet it would improve my work flow -- but I just haven't got around to it yet.

The current GUI doesn't really bother me, but if they were going to dump one thing it would be their adherence to that dang "chorus" thing. I would love to lay out a song in intro-V-C-V-C-Br-Ch-outro structure without "expanding". But that complaint is not enough for me to not use the program -- I know that would need a major overhaul! I guess I could put the Br-Ch-outro part in a "TAG" ending, I might have to try that.

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I know the 'chorus' point has been raised enough times that many older users' first response is "oh not this again"

... which tells me two things


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I apologize for bringing that "chorus" thing up again. It is just so "foreign' from the way I construct songs.

Kevin


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It looks like what you want to do has nothing to do with the standard <Verse-Chorus>. Just writing out a-b-a-b-c etc isn't expanding. You will have written one "chorus".


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The term chorus has many definitions. It could be a full cycle through a song’s form, a part after a verse, a group of people singing, etc as explained here:

http://musiced.about.com/od/lessonsandtips/f/chorus.htm

http://www.yourdictionary.com/chorus

http://jazz.about.com/od/glossaryofjazzterms/g/Chorus.htm

PGMusic uses the full cycle through a song’s form definition while many of us use to the verse/chorus definition.

Although it would be nice to put verse/chorus/bridge/etc markers in BiaB I have no problem exporting the song to Sonar and putting those markers there.

Just my thoughts.


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Can anyone provide a Picture of how they rearranged the screen to work better for them? I'd love to see a screenshot of BIAB customized. I've never changed anything. I just use it as is. (lazy)
It might give us some ideas how to use BIAB better without changing it.
Wayne,

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Quote:

Can anyone provide a Picture of how they rearranged the screen to work better for them?






The chordsheet is scaled to allow other windows onscreen. You can see the two surviving toolbars are floated out on top. The keyboards are gone.

Note that the toolbar region is not scalable. So the "harmony" windows get cut off, but I don't care.

Last edited by allis; 01/28/11 03:59 PM.
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How did you get your screen shot into your post? Thanks, Ray


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Stash the screen shot on the web at "photobucket.com", or some similar file host. Make the picture light and small.

The host will provide you your picture's new URL. Paste it into your post using the forum's "image" function located down the page under "Instant UBB Code".

That's all. When somebody reads the thread, the software loads the picture from wherever you put it on the web.



I hope this question means you're about to post one. I'd like to see how you do these things, Ray. Others, too, of course.


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Thanks allis,
Thanks for taking the time.
That is a very efficient layout. That was what I meant. A few ideas will help. Better use of what we have.
Yes some other people's pictures would be good. It will help us think of better ways to work with BIAB.
Thanks again, Wayne

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Thanks, allis. Here's a shot of my BIAB, just to see if I did it right.

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/raymb1/HeresThatRainyDay.png

Last edited by raymb1; 01/28/11 09:07 PM.

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Quote:

The chordsheet is scaled to allow other windows onscreen. You can see the two surviving toolbars are floated out on top. The keyboards are gone.




In the interim, if you don't want to see the keyboard on the screen, just select from the top menu "Opt, Preferences", then select the "Display" button and uncheck the box that says "Show on-screen piano".


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No trouble at all. I agree with you. Glad you're interested in doing something practical. It does get a little tiresome reading the same endless GUI complaints of those who don't try to do anything to help themselves. There's considerable flexibility available, right down to the typefaces you like.

Naturally, we may prefer different things. The onscreen keyboards that bug me could be absolutely essential to somebody learning to read organ music, and entirely worthless again to a bluegrass player who couldn't care less about a keyboard.

Good luck. Will you post a shot when you get one?

Last edited by allis; 01/28/11 03:07 PM.

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That link works, Ray. I had to click on the URL to load the picture, which is not a big deal. If you want it to show automatically, enclose it in that "image" function I mentioned. But it may be better your way.

That BiaB layout is very handsome and clean. Putting the title stuff at the bottom seems to concentrate the mind on the music. I think I'll do that when I figure out how. (What's the method? I'll try to pretend I've forgotten, but I doubt I ever knew.)

Somehow I knew you'd be doing something good. Thanks.


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Rats. The picture on the second trial is not showing and it's not clickable. It was better before.

I copied the code from "Direct Link for Layout Pages" and pasted it into PGMusic's "image" function from lower down on this forum-message composing page.


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Could you post how you get your toolbars like that? Later, Ray


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Larry,
Yes, there should be more constuctive examples of BIAB's GUI, instead of complaints. Everyone has a little personal tweak they use to make their work easier.
Getting rid of the Keyboard is OK for me as well. Being a Guitar player I don't need to see it either.
Your layout is nice and clean. I like it.
Wayne,

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Quote:

[image]http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/raymb1/[/image]






Sorry, It's still not showing.

For some reason the URL is copying incompletely. It's missing the actual picture file name. That should read something like

http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/raymb1/xxxxx.jpg

When this is working right, you can see your picture already in the Preview provided by the forum software, just before you send it in.


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Re: Putting the toolbars on the bottom. <Window-Put notation/chords on top>. Is there a way to make this permanent? When I close BIAB and re-open the setup reverts back to the toolbars on top. Later, Ray

P.S. I've re-posted this to Tips and Tricks.

Last edited by raymb1; 01/29/11 08:14 AM.

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Quote:

Quote:

The chordsheet is scaled to allow other windows onscreen. You can see the two surviving toolbars are floated out on top. The keyboards are gone.




In the interim, if you don't want to see the keyboard on the screen, just select from the top menu "Opt, Preferences", then select the "Display" button and uncheck the box that says "Show on-screen piano".




John, thank you - after all these years of looking at those white and black boxes on the screen which I never have had a use for . I now see I can get rid of them.

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I concur that of all the features of BIAB the gui is of the least importance to me. I've used a few versions over the years, but nothing recent- yet when I bought the 2011 Mega Pack, it was easy to use and intuitive. It's just a tool. I don't care if the hammer I buy looks like the one my Dad had as long as it hammers in nails and is durable. I'm not saying that I don't have issues with BIAB as I do, but my concerns are functionality not appearance.

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Quote:

Seeing the user interface nearly drove me to tears.




At least I'm not the only one - but I went further, on several occasions I WAS in tears.

I fully respect all those who either enjoy picking their way through complex menu systems - or who have meticulously spent endless hours learning the quirks and idiosyncrasies of BIAB and remember them all for the next time - but I'm not amongst them.

Yet I do have to admit sympathies with those who have seen the sometimes catastrophic effects of making significant changes to the program without adequate user-testing to work through all the bugs before general release. I also have sympathies with those who fear instability problems being introduced purely to change the look and feel.

But I fully agree with the original post, that the program is many years behind the market as a whole in terms of usability, and in particular in terms of any kind of consistently intuitive approach to usability. I'm very grateful to PG for introducing features and approaches that have helped me accommodate to some of the processes involved, but the more I learn, the more I find new ones and so the process is a continuous one of angst.

What frustrates me is the feedback that users here keep posting when BIAB can't do certain things - that then you should use Realband. But by way of comparison, Microsoft doesn't ask me, when using Word, to open up another program to change the colour of my text, because Word is only for processing text, not formatting.

BIAB is indeed a unique program, which I have found invaluable in moving my songwriting into the digital arena, but perhaps this is it's downfall - when there is no competition, there is no catalyst for change.

Quote:

Are you just unable to set aside the time and money?




In one sense I'm sure this, for PG, is partly true. I've spent the past ten years running my own web-design business - during which I've made usability and accessibility two of my key targets. But it takes a massive amount of time and investment in software resources to work through even a medium-sized website, let alone a full computer program. I had several shelves of books on usability, devoted to simply making web-pages - how many more would be needed to work through BIAB? In the end I ran out of energy and even started using templates for my own websites before eventually giving up completely. And with BIAB would not the price tag be doubled as a result of major change? Perhaps it would be worth it, but perhaps not in the middle of a recession?

Yes, I would be fully in favour of a BIAB/Realband composite - but only if it was fully user-tested to a much higher level before it was put out into the public arena. For the first time in a couple of years, even though using it frustrates me, BIAB seems relatively stable. Please let's keep it that way whatever course you choose PG!


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PG is the only company which makes me overjoyed and deeply angry in equal measure

Real Tracks has transformed my studio, and my practice in ways no other product is capable of - I use BIAB more than all of my other equipment and I have a very comprehensive and up to date studio. However

1] I hate the schizophrenic nature of having two seperate programs to perform one set of similar (though not identical functions

2] I can't even get RB to work on a very good and up to date system (using a Focusrite LIquid 56, WIn 7 64 bit) So I pay half my money for nothing.

3] I can even get my VST piano (or organ) to function inside BIAB (or RB) so I cant do the simplest recording.
4] The idea that we are supposed to use the on board sounds of the various synths is a joke to me. I want ot use top class pianos, my B4II Hammond Organ (wth all of its drawbars and leslie speak emulations), even Omnisphere, Absynth, VSL instruments, East West Choirs, Piasnoteq electric pianos, Stradivarious violins all of which I own and can use in ANY other context bar PG products.

4] I want to record whatever VST I want and I cant even record ANY. So much for accompaniment features. BIAB can be utterly hopeless and as for RB well see above.

5] As for the GUI dont tell me that PG have not yet noticed that the buttons labelled strings, piano or guitar often dont actually contain these instruments. Isnt it just basic programming to get these buttons to display the name of the actual instrument?

6] Who on earth needs to play with features like LSB these days? Who uses these tiny little spin buttons? Why no decent mixer?

7] Using MME technology is schoolboy programming - ok it 'will do' in some circumstances, but its not designed to support professional music applications EVERYTHING should be ASIO. No other sequencer technology (And even BIAB IS a sequencer in some senses - it lines up notes and tracks) has a problem with hosting a number of channels, recording them and outputting them - its inexcusable in my view that we are still faffing around with MME.

7] I look at my wholly Realtrack song in BIAB on screen in the BIAB GUI. I can see all the mislabelled buttons, and then beneath them I can see all the MIDI options like BANK Select, lsb ETC.
I can see that it displays 'Vibes' (there are no vibes at all) but even if I were to have a midi TRACK this would not work as the Forte DXI synth overides it without telling the GUI. I can see three buttons marked 'loop' two small ones and one large. If I hit the 'loopscn' one I know that it will also change my screen from chords to notation against my wishes. Why three anyway? Its redundant ridiculous. I see buttons like GM2, F, and +, which all handle very esoteric MIDI features which frankly dont need ot be there and could be hidden on some MIDI Window. All in all, when playing a Real Track the top panel is mostly irrelevent and/or misleading'


Overall, the way I feel about this is like a man in a village who goes to the only cart maker in the area and asked for a cart. The cart maker advertises his cart like others, but when you get it home, you realise that it only has three wheels. You go back to the cart maker and he says he will fix it in some update, you wait for a few updates and nothing happens. Your cart is very valuable to you, without it you could not get your goods to market atr all and even with its three wheels, its the best thing you have and there simply is no other cart maker to go to. You talk to some other villagers, but its clear that they have never seen a four wheel cart and 'like things the way they are'. So you lumber on and wait. You muse about Stockholm Syndrome...

8] Covolution Reverb? No this belongs to a Millenium PG have not yet reached.

9] Surround? OK well thats just funny. Ditto.

Now I am going to play SOUL EYES using BIAB, and TruePianos, I love the sounds I hear, only I cant record it without exporting the whole backing track to Cubase and running True Pianos there. If I do this I loose all ability to use BIAB Real Track Features. On an old Yamaha keyboard I had I could simply play with an accompaniment and hit the record button.

Yes its time for a fundamental rethink.

Zero


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Once again i remind you that what you want is there. REALBAND!!! it allows you to use what ever VSTi you want, TruePianos, lying-like-a-rug-pianos, and whatever. It has a MIXER, it allows use of a convolution reverb, or any kind of reverb for that matter. There are hundreds of free and for purchase effects and instruments that work with it. It has the ability to add RTS, and RDs, just like BiaB. You can drop a BiaB song into it and add more to the hearts content. You can add up to 48 tracks (I would love to see that expanded). You can use busses, and effects sends. You can choose what tool bars show. It has ACW, it has lyric windows. It uses ASIO, it has what you want. If you can't get it to work, call or email support and get help. If you can use cubase RB will work. Get support to help seriously.

Every now and then there is the cry for PG to completely redo BiaB into a combo of Sonar/Cubase/BiaB/Reaper/Fruityloops/Reason/microsoftoffice2015/photoshop/julieanne frymaker. They spent a lot of time and effort to give us a melding of BiaB and Powertracks. Best of both worlds. It is after all only three years in and I am sure will continue to grow and advance. More cool features will be added, existing ones refined, and better and more useable work flows. think about it, this year we got Elastique stretching!!!! Wow, that is way cool! I hope that Better ASIO and VSTi is on the table for next year, along with automation envelopes. Add those three and you got something here. Another cool area of upgrade would be to the mixer with a bit more flexable routing of groups and subgroups capability, and or some input as to how to really use these features better.

Imagine that RB allowed you to drag BiaB files over to it! (it does) that would be really great, but actually you do not need to you can simply open them!!

Can it get better, sure! Some things need a little care, like the VSTi coding so that it allows things like jamstix to work fully, and ASiO to work a little bit better. But does it all need to be scraped for a full on rewrite? NO! There are many folks here that like it as is, with small refinements.

Personally i use RB almost all the time now. BiaB only on rare occasions. But there are folks that use only BiaB, for practice, teaching, writing, scatch pad, live playing, making breakfast. How in the heck do you make that work for so many different needs by rewriting it as a new application? I understand the desire to want a basic facelift, re arrange some buttons, a newer looking GUI or skinable feature would be cool.

But why keep asking for something that already exist? Why not get it working and learn it? You might be stunned how good it works.


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RealBand works just fine on my new systems and old systems.

ASIO is and has never been necessary. When I tried it I got a whole month of grief. It was badly written. Actually very badly written.

As to several small buttons that say guitar, even my 60 yr. old eyes can see I put a fiddle there. Point taken, some people need to get different levels of input, but say i put that fiddle on strings, I know that Westering Home, that I spent several hours getting to work, has a fiddle there. There are only 4 instruments playing.

The LSB spinner, I have 2 good sounding hardware synths and I use them all the time.

I can record fine in both Band in a Box and RealBand. And I can start up Audacity, hit record and run everything back in through the mixer and I have a stereo track of the instruments.

I have a Behringher power mixer with 10 inputs, and a non power one with 5 and a Bose one with 4. 2 Work on stero in, the last on usb. All record fine.

I have lots of VST's I can use, I don't need them much.

At the end of the day, I can see a screen for newbies, a screen for recording, a screen for practice etc. But I'm doing ok as it is.

Now if you want to hear complaints about software...just try and talk to Bill Gates about the problems with his O/S. I'm sure he'll jump into the forum, or reply in person to your email. OTOH, Mr. Gannon sends me messages, replies, and works hard to offer great products, good customer support, and value for your dollar.

And you can get your money back. Try that one on Bill Gates.


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Cant use Real Band here so I can't comment on it. I have a windows 7 64 bit system running on a Core i7 processor with 12 gig with a Focursrite Liquid channel 56 asound module. After several cross atlantic phone calls PG gave up on me. I tried the forum too and got some good support but no result. So I have to buy RB but not use it, just to get BIAB.

I suppose my system is not good enough? Well it runs everything else like a dream

I still think there should be one properly coded app.

"Every now and then there is the cry for PG to completely redo BiaB into a combo of Sonar/Cubase/BiaB/Reaper/Fruityloops/Reason/microsoftoffice2015/photoshop/julieanne frymaker"

That's just hyperbole,

LSB well some poeple still use it I know, but does it have ot use up GUI real estate? That was my point. Things like that could be hidden or pop up.

Other apps get a new GUI every so often and a back to the drawing board rethink, its in the nature of improving a product. Just adding new modules and not rethinking the connection between them is poor programming. Cleaving a program in two and saying you can do this in bit A and this in bit B.. well, I am lost for words...its such a dissapointment as there is also some amazingly good things going on
.
Bill Gates has nothing to do with anything, nor is getting your money back. This is wish list forum. I wish BIAB had a mixer and proper VST support and proper Asio support.

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Zee if everything runs but RB and support can't help, and no one here can help you are just stuck my friend. If i remember correctly there was a lot of help offered, but you did not follow thru on all of it. I beleive we even offered to shadow your screen and take a look.

I mean RB and PTPA for that matter is not hard to setup. I have not anywhere near the machine you have and mine is solid as a rock, as is everyone elses. It has to be one small issue, either a IRQ conflict, or a driver issue, or something simple. RB runs so similar to BiaB that is is hard to understand.

I can see why you feel frustrated and want a rewrite, but really if you just worked through the RB issue you would have what you want.

Why not take another try at it. use the online chat feature for support, toss it out here again. Get one of the RB/PT gurus like Rharv or Mac to use crossloop or team viewer to shadow you and look at your setup.

it is well worth it.


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I have a Windows 7 64 bit system with 1 tb hard drive, and 8 gigs of memory, plus another 8 gigs being used to boost the speed.

Band in a Box runs in either the current hard drive OR the external hard drive as shipped by PG Music.

Real Band also.

I run Pinnacle (Avid) software also.

All other systems and development work are done in Kubuntu or Ubuntu, and Android 2.2.

But I've never had any problem, except for the spurious idea that so much stuff was going on here pertaining to ASIO, I decided to try that. I went back to MME and everything is coming up tulips ever since.

Now that I have a new Korg keyboard, and that the stretching software is so much better, I am almost done with midi, though I use it once in a while.

I suspect your problem lies in the ASIO needs to run this stuff, when in fact you have to be some sort of guru to get it to work. At the end of the day, enjoy the RealTracks, explore them, and be happy.

Some here seem to get joy from messing with ASIO and Realband. I just don't need to go out and find the latest vocal plugin for ch 5 and take it to some gig. In fact, I found the complexities of any gigging solution where you need a computer/ Then an interface, then a proper screen keyboard and jacks to be detrimental to my mental health.

The wife plays her instruments, I play mine, and we get along fine.

When I did take it out NO one came up to me and said "That's a really cheesey guitar you've got there, what is it a Fender recorded from a casette tape you got at the dump?"


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I think "Z" you are missing a very important point here. PG is not cleaving a program in two, it is melding two programs together, just what you asked for. BiaB was never intented to be a Full on DAW recording system. It is in PG's not my own words:

"What is Band-in-a-Box?
Band-in-a-Box is an intelligent automatic accompaniment program for your multimedia computer. You can hear and play along to many song ideas and go from “nothing” to “something” in a very short period of time with Band-in-a-Box as your “on demand” backup band."

You on the other hand want a DAW type sequencer to replace cubase in the tool box that is more akin to BiaB which you like but it does not do everything you want or need. You want to take the project from creation to finish in one system. That is why PG developed RB, so you have a choice or either starting in BiaB, and moving over to RB, or just start and finish in RB. The problem is not that the tool does not exist, but the fact that yours does not work.

Again from PG's site: "RealBand is a fully-featured and powerful music arranging, sequencing, and digital recording program. RealBand is a new program that combines the most popular features from PG Music’s PowerTracks Pro Audio and Band-in-a-Box programs into an all-in-one sequencing program with automatic accompaniment."

I look at it this way, if you were building a book case and had a hammer, nails, sand paper, and a hand saw, you could get it done. But to make the job easier, you go out and buy a table saw, a compressor, and air nailer, and a sander, but you have no electricity on the job, those tools are worthless, right?

Rather than complain that the tool maker should take the hand tools, and the power tools, and make you a set of tools that does the job of both without electricity, why not just run an extension cord from a power source and use the right tools.

You need to figure out how to get RB to work for you so you have what you want, not expect PG to abandon their current path just because your system is not working at this moment with their program.

Lastly, You said above all companies do GUI updates, true, but what you are asking is far more than a GUI update, if that was all it is fine. Then it boils down to coming up with a nice face lift. But you want a full rewrite, and actually that has really already happened with RB, you just can not take advantage of it yet. So take another run at it, and let's all see if between Support and the fine folks here, we can get it working for you.

One other thought, take a look over at Cakewalks's Sonar X1 site, folks over there clamored for a big rewrite of Sonar, and they got it!! It has been a nightmare! Bugs galore, Crying and complaining. Actually a rewrite of BiaB to be an all in one program would be far more difficult than the rewrite at Sonar, since BiaB does things no other software can do, and would require a huge project. The way PG approached this to me is brillant. Taking a simple easy to use DAW, and medling in many of the basic features of BiaB, and slowly refining that we have a very handy app it so smart. Baby steps! Keep it as stable as possible. Grow it at a reasonable rate.


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Just for the record I was offered a lot of good help on the forum but its still not working here even though I followed it all through.

I dont want BIAB to be a fully fledged sequencer - I have one of those Cubase.'~

"You on the other hand want a DAW type sequencer to replace cubase in the tool box that is more akin to BiaB which you like but it does not do everything you want or need. You want to take the project from creation to finish in one system"

Robh you have a habit of putting words in my mouth, then arguing against them and knocking them down.



At a minimum, I would be happy if I could load a decent piano VST into BIAB and record it along with a song - no can do here. Even if this is possible in RB it should also be possible in BIAB - this is no big deal its just what you would minimally expect from accompaniment software.

RB is not a 'fully featured Sequencer' at least not compared to the big boys - there is so much RB cant do as a sequencer. Your not going to find a Pro studio running RB - its OK as far as I can see, I am not saying its bad, its just not fully featured.

So over in Cakewalk Sonar X1 they may be having grief - well what is hte lesson you expect me to draw? - never update?? Never rethink an application? Doesn't hold water that argument.

Asking for a mixer in BIAB well, really I should even have to ask its just basic common sense

Maybe I dont understand RB but then I can't use it here, I did not say that others can't use it.


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I have been using BIAB since the beginning, the early DOS versions, and really like it.

Yes, I am surprised that in 2011, the basic UI has not changed since the very first Windows version (made for Windows 3.1.) (Even the fact that it is by default installed in the root directory (rather than in Program Files), and doesn't use the registry. Those are not important at all to me, but just another indication that BIAB remains with its very first Win 3.1 setup, did not ever even adopt the changes of Win 95.)

It might be wise to spend some time and energy, not just in adding more and more similar pop and country RealTracks, but in trying to make some fundamental long-overdue changes to the app.

Not only in UI, but also in functionality. For instance, I am amazed that still, after all these years, and so many user requests for it, that chords cannot be changed at more than one per beat! When will that major limitation be fixed?

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Quote:

Even the fact that it is by default installed in the root directory (rather than in Program Files),



If you do put it in /Program Files (either one, for 64 bits), you will encounter UAC problems in Vista and Windows 7
Quote:

and doesn't use the registry.



And for this, Thank You, PG Music. One less thing for Windows to scramble.


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Greetings,

I have been using Band In A Box and Real Band for quite a while. The first upgrade I bought was Band In A Box 12 (if my memory serves me right). Please, lets keep focus, I buy the product for what it can do, not how pretty the interface looks. Before Real Band I used both Sonar and Band In A Box. Sonar provided the Mixer Band In A Box did not have. Sonar had what looked like a cool feature in their Grove Clips. But they couldn't come close to what I could do with Band In A Box and Real Band.

I disagree with anyone suggesting it would be best to re-write the products from the ground up. Music Production software like Band In A Box or Garage Band is definitely a limited sized market. This is not like Microsoft office that will see an installed base of anything in the line of 8 to 10 digits in their license count. Can you imagine going to a venture capital funding organization and tell them "I want to get enough money together to produce a product that can go toe to toe with PG Music's Band In A Box / Real Band combination"? As long as Band In A Box is "Best Of Breed" in the marketplace, the interface is likely to lose less market share to competitors than the superior functionality of the product will take from the competitors.

Since the marketplace for this type of software is limited, the amount of money available for developing new code is limited. I wouldn't mind a long term goal of modernizing the user interface, but certainly not at the expense of improvements to the technology of creating arrangements and making them sound like I have my own band of live musicians backing me when I perform. Diverting investment from improving the capability of the product to 'nicing up' the user interface would allow the competitors to "catch up" a little instead of forcing them to scramble to keep up.

The user interface doesn't do anything for me when I'm on the stage with a microphone in my hand. That is why I continue buying the upgrades to Band In A Box and Real Band. And, by the way, for the functionality I get in the products Band In A Box, Real Band, and the Real Tracks and style sets, I am very satisfied with them and consider them a true bargain.

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Quote:

Diverting investment from improving the capability of the product to 'nicing up' the user interface would allow the competitors to "catch up" a little instead of forcing them to scramble to keep up.




1.) For my part, and as I understand most of those who are asking for it, an updated GUI is an improvement to the product's capability. It is far more than making it look prettier; it is about enhanced functionality for different types of users.

2.) What competitors?


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Right on, Ryszard.


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In another post requesting some chord structures to Yamaha Hardware would be an enhancement...When I think about improving the GUI, my defib goes off!

I really dug the "competitor-edge" that Apple's App for groovy "trio" backup gave to singers like me, with their offering up the iRealBook...which gave you everything including a wide variety of jazz standards along with the ability to quickly change
keys into your do-able "range"!

Unfortuately, and even tho they didn't offer the lyrics too, they've run into copywrite pressure and, except for the original purchasers, the new version of iRealBook, except if you're lucky enuff to have the initial one which still swings with chord charts and all...

To me, altho I have many internet fake books, which include original jazz star MP3's...
this under $20 dollar-RealBook-Compendium, was a real competitor for either a quick practice session of tunes that are "called out", as well as a nifty packaged software
band-backup-program that, if you had a good library of lyrics on hand...or in your memory...presented you with one "tiger" of delite for IPAD/IPOD/IPHONE users.

Not to forget that the BIAB software offered in the Apple Store, is a great move forward!


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The real base of the arguement here is should PG rewrite BiaB to include all the things that folks complain about. The biggest part of the complaint comes from Mr. Zero Zero, who I will say seems like a real decent chap, that like the rest of us want PG to be successful, and want the best software he can get for his investment. I respect him for that.

But i completely disagree about a ground up rewrite, i think that is too aggressive, and also invasive. There are far to many folks here that like Biab as it is. Sure i would love , as I am sure most would to see a new more modern face on it someday with some updated menus and button function.

Zero/Zero keeps clamoring for a rewrite, adding mixers, multiports, full VSTi function like a synth rack, full on recording like a typical DAW, so he can do 99% of what he wants right there in Biab, and maybe polish it a tad in cubase. He has ask for BiaB to be morphed into something far more. He has a right to ask! I have a right to resist. We are both paying users.

My reason for resistance is simple. What he wants is already there. In RB, but he has issues with that since he has not been able to get RB to work properly. I suggest getting on line or phone with PG and sorting out the problems, rather than keep asking them to abandon the path chosen. I want refinement and progress with the current models, not total change, since i feel that would set things back for years.

I love what RB is becoming, it is very close to being a major DAW tool. VSTi needs refining, ASIO needs to be made a tad better, and it needs full automation envelope capabilities and it will be right there with other DAWs. BiaB on the other hand is what it is, and does not need major change, it need gentle updating. I agree that a bit more comprehensive mixer, rather than just volume control in the tool bar would be nice. As far as VSTi rack, hhmmmm interesting idea. Right now you need a GM synth or route out to a hardware synth. You can use any VSTi like sampletank, or Kontact, and then hand pick the patches. This makes it hard if you use a large variey of sounds, but if you use like a jazz combo it is easy. Maybe a small three slot synth rack would solve some of the issue, and be easy to implement, thus making the program more powerful for ZZ, and other with his needs.

I am just afraid of constant pressure on a software company like PG in this economy where they cave in and try some radical changes, and the large majority have to suffer thru huge growing pains, much like the sonar issues of late.


Zero, i appolgize if anything i said or have said are in anyway not cool to you. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but over the past few months this is what it seems you want. I think what we have is fine with small refinements and future growth. I would love to see you get RB up and running properly, and will help anyway I can.


Best Regards Rob.


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Quote:

But i completely disagree about a ground up rewrite, i think that is too aggressive, and also invasive. There are far to many folks here that like Biab as it is. Sure i would love , as I am sure most would to see a new more modern face on it someday with some updated menus and button function.





Rob, I will respectfully disagree. Although I could care less about the GUI, I will use whatever PGMusic has-I can learn it, but I think a complete rewrite is needed update the engine. The rewrite should include many of the core suggestions myself and many other users have put on the wish list. Things like increased midi PPQ to at least 960, put chords on at least 8th notes if not 16th notes, correctly display those so called odd key signatures like 5/4, 7/4, 6/8, 12/8 etc, the addition of multiple midi ports and so on and so forth.

Quote:


Zero/Zero keeps clamoring for a rewrite, adding mixers, multiports, full VSTi function like a synth rack, full on recording like a typical DAW, so he can do 99% of what he wants right there in Biab, and maybe polish it a tad in cubase. He has ask for BiaB to be morphed into something far more. He has a right to ask! I have a right to resist. We are both paying users.






ZeroZero I will respectfully disagree with your idea of making BiaB into a full fledged DAW. Many of us use other DAWs and for one reason or another do not want to switch. Keep BiaB as a background/foreground music-generating piece of software. Let RB do the rest of what you want.

Just my two cents - MarioD


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I don't mind any changes to BIAB as long as those of us who want to can keep it in "the dark ages". BIAB functions perfectly for my purposes. Later, Ray


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The big question is whether or not BIAB data flow will "fly" as far as Apple's new entre into the world of music apps (and other similar orientation) that will possibly make it into its "CLOUD" and "LION" products...and become the new rage of creatively-bent individuals (like us)???

And the question for PG would be...if BIAB is involved in any type of CLOUD activity,
would they consider a GUI change if concerned that their data product looks "too gooey"??

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Just for the record I do not expect BIAB to be a 'full fledged DAW' none of PGs programs have the power of Cubase or protools. What I want to do most is to load a VST instrument such as my piano or my organ and paly it in BIAB and record it along with BAIB tracks. Is this really too much to ask? What is BIAB if it is not an accompaniment program.
Many musicians possess a decent piano synth like Ivory, TruePainos and there is absolutely no way that a good pianist is gonig to settle for a gm or multisynth substitute. You cant load a decent piano into BAIB and play along and record - this is fundamental.
The idea that BIAB could be a 'full fledged DAW' can only be imagined by someone that does not really know rthe capabilities of Cubase or Protools etc... I find the idea of using BIAB as my DAW quite laughable. Its a very good accompaniment software - wordl claass in fact with Real Tracks, and its a very good learning tool but its definitely not a fully fledged sequencer.

Mixers are bog standard across all sort of products not just DAWS.

Also for the record I have been in contact with PG several times and they did not get my system working. I recieved a lot of good help from the forum but alas no result with RB. Even if I did get RB to work I would stil believe that both programs should be merged. I use Cubase for my sequencing and it is far more powerful and professional that anything PG has made in this area (sequencing).

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I understand what you want, and no it is not to much to ask. It still baffles me that you can't see that the answer is already there, Biab has been merged, not with RB, but with Powertracks, the child of that merge IS RB. What you want it there, you just have to figure out why it does not work, and i bet you would love it.

No it is not as deeply feature rich as Cubase or Protools, they are abundantly more expensive than either PT $50 more or less, and or RB an add on to BiaB. But do not sell them short, both will do a lot of work for you. Both do midi very well, both do audio very well, both are easy to use and have a lot of very useable features. The mixer section is simple but has a lot of features. The VSTi rack will allow you to open a BiaB file, both with RTs and midi tracks, and add any kind of Synth you want. I use sampletank, and a couple others every day. I have added pianos, organs, guitar synths, you name it.

Zee, have you ever used Powertracks? and if so did it work? If not that might give a clue as to why RB does not work. Exactly what does not work on it? Be specific.

There is something simple missing here, PT and RB are not difficult to get running. I had far less trouble getting then configured than even the baby sonar product MC5. I have used Cubase, Sonar, Cakewalk MC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Reaper, Multitrackstudio, N-tracks, Tracktion, Reaper, Logic, Vegas, Acid Pro, and a couple more over the years. PT and RB have always loaded up and ran with ease.

Here is an offer, I do not know where you are located, but if it is possible i will make time to personally help you, i can log into teamviewer and shawdow your screen and check the setup, and look for issues. If we can get it working together that would be a good thing. You would have total control all the time, and the ability from your end to disconnect me at any time. Let me know if this is interesting to you and we can try then to lock down a time that works for both. then all i have to do is give you the link to Teamviewer QS and we can give it a try.

Last edited by Robh; 06/02/11 04:36 PM.

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Thanks for your offer, I may well take the offer up, partners birdthay today and I do'nt want her to feel ignored

Lets be very clear what want to do. I want to be able to play TruePianos (Which is VST and or standalone -see demo) with a BIAB song and record it - simple. I can already do this by exporting the track to Cubase and then recording the piano there, but that turns the whole session into a recording session. Instead I would like to record the piano during quick and dirty practice sessions - MIDI and Audio too.

I am not interested in learning Powertracks I already have a better sequencer.

Here is my kit:

Win 7, Core i7 920, 64 bit, PC, 12 gig of Ram. Focusrite Liquid 56 Firewire running their Saffire 2.2 Driver.

Its a long time since I tried RB (for my memory) but I recall trying all the settings for sample rates and all the settings in RB with no luck.
At present i am getting sound from the demo songs but cant load any plugins they appear breifly in the VST DXI windowe and then vanish. I have Audio set for 16 bit 44.1.


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Okay let me know if you want to take a shot at it.

My question about Powertracks was not to suggest swithcing over to it, but that if Powertracks had at some point worked for you, that would be a great starting point for Rb setup, since Rb is built on the powertracks chassis then melded with Biab.


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Yes understood Rob


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BIAB is the best that is out there for what it does. The chord structure orientation is the only way to go.

However, I have, for years been wanting more from BIAB in several ways. The frustrating part is it would seem to me to be simple to add some great features to BIAB.

First, higher resolution on drum parts. Of course, they have gone the realdrums route, but MIDI is still very useful to me still, so the higher resolution on drums would be helpful in creating better drum parts.

Second, and this is my BIG wish, why not have, say, 4 more instruments? They have addressed this issue somewhat with multistyles, and being able to change styles about any way that you want to. But if you had 4 more instruments you could really build advanced styles in a direct and simple manner. To make this work as desired you would need to add to the chorus structure. I would like a verse/chorus structure where you could specify in the stylemaker that this instrument came in on the 2nd verse, the 3rd verse, or the 2nd chorus, etc..

To be fair, the BIAB people are moving somewhat in my direction, just taking a more complicated approach, in my opinion.

Eric


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I think all programs should use the same terms to to do the same thing . They don't ! Every one is so different it's like learning a new language , but if you started changing that language even slowly you would lose current user's understanding of it . So if you're going to change this one's GUI should all software be changed to certain standards just to meet your needs ? If you want to be multi-lingual do other country's languages need to conform to you ? Some things don't need change as much as people need more time to adapt to them . I think PG only needs to change the number of real tracks that are available and stop with the 50 new features till RT's catch up with the midi styles. Ok don't stop new the features ,but small numbers of RT's reminds me of when I bought Biab 2004 pro then wanted the mega pack a week later . I just can't get enough!

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I have been watching this thread for a bit now and eventually had to also chip in.

I have also done a fair bit of software development in my time and have found that when you have a piece of software that does a very specialized job that the thing takes on a life of its own and the lay-out develops to actually performs the task that you set out to do.

If you start focusing on getting it sexy then very soon you lose focus on the real requirement and spending time on cosmetics ....

I was (and stil am) personally AMAZED every time I fire it up and get this band playing with me, doing what I want them to do and that for a price I still cannot really believe.

For my 10 cents worth I see no point in changing it. Spend the money on adding more styles, maybe add some more MIDI styles for a change as well, that will impresses me.

I am happy with the improvements in performance, the reduction in the size of files, thats what counts for me! Who remembers how long it took to generate those first 3 real tracks? (I actually woke up the wife to show her what they've added this time)

I think maybe some user's are taking what we have for granted and does not really appreciate what we have here. THAT IS ONLY MY OPINION.


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+1 Trash!!


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Good answer!

Quote:

maybe add some more MIDI styles for a change as well






MAYBE? No maybe about it - add some more midi styles


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What a great thread!!! I just spent the time to read it from head to toe. My dime.

A lot of what is being discussed here is not FUNCTIONALITY as much as EDUCATION. Allow me to be the guinea pig for my own example.

I was at a friend's house earlier this year. He had just purchased the newest version of BIAB. At that point he did a fast demo. I accepted his offer to bring the old one home and play with it. I used it for 3 days and then ordered it. That was maybe 3 months ago.

(Education and guinea pig references start here.)

To this day, June 24th, I have NEVER clicked the Real Band icon. Never. I just didn't/don't really know what it even is, and I have a lot of writing work to do and not time to play. As I read this thread I have a better idea what Real Band is, and will play with it some tonight, but when I load a song already written in BIAB, am I essentially loading it into a DIFFERENT program or BIAB on steroids? Is it going to change the assigned instruments? Erase the solos? And where would I go to read about this? Do I take a week of vacation to try and sift through EVERY ITEM in the help files until I guess correctly on what my issue is called in the helps? That's like trying to pick a style. Yesterday, just so I knew, I kept track. I looked at (get ready for it) 87 styles before I found one I liked. (What is a style called "cnty_tim" supposed to mean? Is that a shuffle, a stomp, a ballad, a hoedown.....? What is "standard"? And who the hell is "Tim"?) Can those styles not be arranged by "Ballad" - "Shuffle" - "Stomp" - etc? Brent Mason's name in a style may be a good thing for "measuring in the shower" value (Look everybody! We got Brent Mason to do samples!) but it doesn't describe the groove in any way. I was looking for a groove kind of like Terri Clark's tune "Now That I Found You". Some of the styles have "example songs" listed that are not even CLOSE to what the groove of the style is.

When I bought this program, I bought it because it was going to be a fast, easy, quick and dirty back up band to do demos to send to players who will be playing on my CD. I didn't know that I would have to spend 80-100 hours reading help files when I wanted to learn something that I would expect would be clearly defined if not absolutely intuitive. I bought it so I could STOP using Sonar, STOP programming drum machines, STOP playing in take after take to fix my clams, STOP playing with MIDI routing so the right tracks played on the right keyboard (of the 5 I use).

I would like to see the styles offered with JUST a drum groove, but in addition to what they are now. I would like to be able to pick a groove, pick the bass sound, pick the piano, pick the organ, pick the guitar.... from a SIMPLE LIST of instruments, and where the guitar parts play under the guitar tab and the piano plays under the piano tab. In fact I would like to see empty instrument "tabs" so I can designate that maybe tab 1 will be chunking rhythm, tab 2 will be pedal steel, tab 3 will be piano... etc.. rather than a style assigning parts that are close to impossible to change. So with all of that, does what I just said I would like to see constitute my wanting a "DAW"? (Which, just FYI, I consider as "oh please - call it what it is" as calling a used car a "previously owned automobile" or a second mortgage as a "home equity loan". A "DAW" is a multi track sequencer. Let's not play acronym bingo. I mean, VSTi? I have called that "soft synth" for years. Must I change to "Virtual Studio Technology instruments" now?)

The requests about changing the icons I understand again because of the learning curve. There is a huge asterisk on my toolbar. Only recently and by complete accident did I discover that the huge asterisk is supposed to be a big snowflake that indicates the option to FREEZE a track. (How about people in Florida who have never seen snow? Do they know that is supposed to be a big snowflake indicating "that cold white stuff that falls from the sky and freezes stuff"? I toured a lot in Canada so I KNOW you folks up north know about the big snowflake.... LOL!) Would it not be at least AS effective to print the letters F-R-E-E-Z-E instead of a picture of a snowflake? There are so many icons that have nothing cognitive about them that I have had to sit there and hover the mouse over them until to caption bubble opened. And THEN I had to try, at my age, and remember what they all meant because 3 seconds after the caption bubble closed it was erased from my brain's memory bank.

This really is more about education. I really think that is at the bottom of this whole debate.


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Quote:

Yesterday, just so I knew, I kept track. I looked at (get ready for it) 87 styles before I found one I liked.




FWIW, that very thing fundamentally changed my approach to and usage of BIAB. My experience was similar to that point. I couldn't keep an idea in my head after listening to all those variations, so I cheated. I gave up.

Note that I work primarily in MIDI with original compositions. I understand that my approach probably won't work with covers unless you intend to do highly original arrangements.

I may go in with an initial idea now, but I listen to BIAB as if it is making suggestions--which it is. It's that expert system thing. If there is a positive side to all this, and for me there is, it is that I end up with music that I never imagined of in the first place. Click on the link below for examples.

Works for me.

Richard


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And the thing about help files guys is this. There are things to ask that need to be asked of a person, not a text file. Example?

Writing a song that I want a B3 solo at measure 110 that will last 16 bars. I went to "soloist". Then "custom". Start solo at 110. Solo is to run 16 bars. Do not allow one extra bar. Overwrite previous solo. On the right side, select the instrument (and I don't know why we do that and then select again on the left side off the "Real Tracks" menu) and hit "generate solo now." Sometimes it queues up 2 bars before the solo and plays from there. Other times it goes to the head and starts at bar 1. That is inconsistent. Okay, so if it goes to the head, I stop the playback. Hit ctl+F to select the start point for playback. Set it at 108, 2 bar running start before the solo I just designated to start at 110.

And here we go.

No matter WHAT B3 patch I select from the Real Tracks menu on the left side of the screen, it WILL NOT create a solo. It puts B3 there, but it is just chord pads. I want to hear Dan Federici or Booker T play solo notes, not chord pads. I tried 20 different B3 options, telling it to overwrite every time, and never got a solo. All I got over and over, 20 times, was B3 playing chord pads.

So looking at the list of Real Tracks, all those B3 choices have "rhythm" in the description. Does that mean it is SUPPOSED to just be chord pads because the patch is called "rhythm"? If that is the case, logic says that there should then also be some patches that are named with "lead" or "solo" in them.

And that is NOT the kind of thing that I can find in the help files. It tells me HOW to select those patches, not what the cryptic names of them mean, what the name describes.

Thus my earlier request for "simple mode". No matter how much I love music, I simply don't have hours in my days to sit there and go through thousands of Real Tracks to try and decide what the cryptic names mean. To play around some with that solo section, I then started picking guitar parts. I tried several "Brent Mason" parts, maybe 8. All of them were SO DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT from each other (and none of them worked in this song) and nothing in the name of the selection gave any indication of what I could expect.

Simple mode.

"Click here to generate B3 solo."
"Click here to generate slide guitar solo."
"Click here to generate pedal guitar solo."
"Click here to generate distorted guitar solo."
"Click here to generate folk guitar solo."

Rather than "Brent Mason low country rhythm strumming blues southern rock." (I made that up. Don't look for it.) Unless everybody has the same idea of what "low country strumming blues southern rock" means, I don't know what that is supposed to be, and by the time I go through thousands of these and test every one, the song is gone.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Just checked the style picker and there are no B3 soloists. The soloist instruments are marked soloist. All the organ patches are marked rhythm. Later, Ray


Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Thank you Ray. See, when I see that word rhythm in a style, I see it as meaning either "This is a rhythm instrument" or "This is the type of rhythm pattern this style will play best with."

The top section of the style picker throws me. The different 1/8th and 1/16th choices are obviously there for a reason, but you have to pick one or the other. I may want neither...

I know nothing is ever going to be everything to everybody. There are just some things I see as less than the most effective way to do things. Less can be more. Giving me 100 solos to pick from and 97 of them are really bad.... I'd rather have only 10 good ones.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Do you have Icons only checked in opt/pref/display ? Try Icons and text first box on top. It's always hard in the beginning on any software . When I first started in 2004 I had never used the interweb but would have if I had known about these forums . I loved using computers so much for recording it never crossed my mind to even check it out . I started out on cool edit ver 1.2 in 1999 and if I ever get over my fear of rejection I'll upload my first song ever comp'ed (it blew chunks).

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Quote:

I'm new to this forum, and only a few months into BiaB, but this seems like a mostly friendly group, so I'll throw this out. I am benefiting immensely from BiaB's ability to comp my practices and to add color to songs where I can't do it myself. The internal algorithms are advanced and creative, and the program's engine is to be commended. HOWEVER.....BiaB appears to be Ford Focus frame on a Ferrari engine. (Sorry for being blunt, but that's exactly the metaphor that comes to mind when I load the program. I'm not trying to offend.)

Leaving aside the time warp to the early 90s that the UX offers, there are just too many usability quirks and inconsistencies with mainstream user interface standards. Example: everytime I want to save a file, I have to scan the (24!) options under the File menu to find Save. (Comes after Karaoke options - really?) Cutting and pasting usually leads to unanticipated results. The list could go on and on. And yes, I know there are shortcuts and key equivalents for all of these to be learned, but as a 21st century software user, I have an expectation that the program should be 85% usable out of the box w/o instructions. BiaB gets about a 40% score based on my exerience.

While I'm satisfied with what the program accomplishes, I'm dissastified with the amount of work I have to do. I can't in all good conscience recccomend BiaB to a prospective buyer either. It's simply too hard to use. Frankly, I use the program b/c it's effective, but I heave a sigh of resignation when I click the icon (and hold my breath that it doesn't crash while generating Realtracks.)

At some point, PG will have to bite the bullet and do a complete remake of the look and feel, and I vote sooner rather than later. Otherwise, fans will leave and new customers will be hard to acquire. Believe me, I know how hard this is - I've been in the technology industry for some time. Long-term loyal users will rightly howl that they need to change habits, customer support costs will skyrocket for a while, developers will be diverted from new features to usabilty designing, etc. Been there. But I also know it has to be done.

FWIW, here at a minimum is what I would change, and I invite others to chime in:

-Contextual icons: over 1/3 of my screen space is occupied by buttons, most of which I rarely use. I just counted 76 button icons, not including the instrument and playback options. BiaB should know what I'm doing and present me with only options that are relevant to the task at hand. (Yes, the icons can be hidden, but that's not the point; it's about enhancing workflow at each step of the process). One possibility is the use of tabs - this has become common in many programs, and almost all browsers, so there will be a less steep learning curve.


-The instrument selection radio icons continue to baffle: I can click Strings and yet add a MIDI generated percussion instrument, or a Banjo realtrack, and the option still says "Strings." This is an area where a more traditional DAW approach may be in order, with tracks lanes, and more easily customizable track names.


-Use wizards instead of menu dialogs. The buttons on most dialog boxes are dense, and often lack logical flow. Example, the notation dialog box. Formatting options are presented alongside transposing options, sandwiched in between guitar chord options. Takes a lot of reorienting myself with every dialog box that is open. This is one area where consitency is paramount. Give me tabs with my options, and let me find only what I need, and make the tabs the same across every dialog box.


-There must be a reason why BiaB doesn't write to the Windows registry, but I don't know what it is. This makes BiaB not play well with my system and I suspect is the reason for a lot of instability and frequent crashes. I'd suggest reevaluting this policy.

-General lack of graphic enhancement. In this era, people expect the graphics to be engaging, intuitive, exciting and useful. I can't say this about BiaB's UX presentation layer.


Don't get me wrong, I admire the program and would like to see it stay around. However, I fear that over time it will fade into the night along with its loyal long term users. A newer generation of users will be put off by an archaic interface, and find something else. I think that would be a shame. That is the intent of this posting and I hope it is taken in that light.




yeah there is a definite ye olde ART DECO look about BIAB

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Originally Posted By: masondr
...HOWEVER.....BiaB appears to be Ford Focus frame on a Ferrari engine. (Sorry for being blunt, but that's exactly the metaphor that comes to mind when I load the program. I'm not trying to offend.)

Leaving aside the time warp to the early 90s that the UX offers,..


Don't get me wrong, I admire the program and would like to see it stay around. However, I fear that over time it will fade into the night along with its loyal long term users. A newer generation of users will be put off by an archaic interface, and find something else. I think that would be a shame. That is the intent of this posting and I hope it is taken in that light.


131540 views !!
That was the one and only post made by the user.
Lots of changes have happened since sure.
It's the same thing I found and basically that's why I stick around nagging all the time with suggestion and ideas, because of the end result of Biab, but as stated getting there is the issue.
What else can you do but 'just keep nagging' smile

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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

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There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

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Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

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Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

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Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

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Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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