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An observation: It seems in this forum that guitarists, bass players, keyboardists and especially vocalists are well represented in terms of posting and sharing BiaB backing tracks with them on their chosen instrument(s). I suppose this is to be expected since these instruments are quite common in contemporary Western popular music. On the other hand, it can be understood that clarinet and tuba players, for example, would not be expected to be high-volume sharers of their work since those instruments are less represented in today's popular music. [Btw, I like the clarinet and tuba.]
But what about drums and percussion? A case could be made that percussion is as fundamental to popular music as any other instrument with the possible exception of the 6 string guitar.
Question: Why do you think that percussionists are not sharing their art using BiaB here? It seems to me that BiaB would be the perfect tool for them to ply their trade and share their work. Years ago they might have needed to spend a small fortune to individually mic, record and mix an analog set of drums but this should be much easier today with the electronic drum kits. I for one would love to hear what drummers can do with BiaB. Could the BiaB marketing efforts somehow not be reaching drummers?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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But what about drums and percussion? A case could be made that percussion is as fundamental to popular music as any other instrument with the possible exception of the 6 string guitar. In my humble opinion drums and percussion should stay in the background where they belong. I honestly can't think of a single drum solo where I didn't want to strangle the drummer way before the end of the solo. Maybe folks who want to play drums should be steered toward a much less obnoxious and more useful instrument like Cajons.  In a good acoustic band the drums and percussion are well covered by guitar, mandolin, banjo, bass and fiddle. Cajons can be a nice addition.
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In my humble opinion drums and percussion should stay in the background where they belong. I honestly can't think of a single drum solo where I didn't want to strangle the drummer way before the end of the solo.
Maybe folks who want to play drums should be steered toward a much less obnoxious and more useful instrument like Cajons.
In a good acoustic band the drums and percussion are well covered by guitar, mandolin, banjo, bass and fiddle. Cajons can be a nice addition.
I played in traditional bluegrass bands for 35 years never with drums or percussion but I would never suggest many drummers are not great musicians or have no place here. In fact one forum member who was active here for several years played drums in a renown band and was friends with one of THE great rock drummers. He has helped me learned about drums as we morphed into blues productions. Drums are prominent is nearly every genre and IMO play a huge roll in ensembles. Learning to work with RD’s - comping up fills/tags, processing drum tracks and more has been a fun journey. And Janice plays cajon so I’m completely familiar with it but have a little difficulty imaging blues rock, jazz, classic rock, country and more sans drums. Cheers, Bud
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In my humble opinion drums and percussion should stay in the background where they belong.
Bob, I don't think you understand the question. I'm not asking where drums and percussion should lay in the mix, (foreground or background or middle ground) that's up to personal taste. I am asking why drummers and percussionists rarely (if ever) showcase their work at this site using BiaB as their backing track. In other words why aren't drummers showcasing their recordings here? Vocalists do, guitarists do, bass players do but not drummers . . . why is my question.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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In my humble opinion drums and percussion should stay in the background where they belong.
Bob, I don't think you understand the question. I'm not asking where drums and percussion should lay in the mix, (foreground or background or middle ground) that's up to personal taste. I am asking why drummers and percussionists rarely (if ever) showcase their work at this site using BiaB as their backing track. In other words why aren't drummers showcasing their recordings here? Vocalists do, guitarists do, bass players do but not drummers . . . why is my question. My guess would be that drummers don't use BIAB that much, but I don't know.. For me a drum track is just a slightly better thing to have than a click track. It's not something I would want on a regular basis. Unless of course you're recording and then the drum track is the first thing you mute or delete.
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. . .I would never suggest many drummers are not great musicians or have no place here. . . . Drums are prominent is nearly every genre and IMO play a huge roll in ensembles.
Bud +1, So why aren't drummers represented here sharing their work? Is it because of folks thinking that "drums belong in the background" and therefore drummers are not welcome here? If so, that's indeed quite sad and everyone's loss.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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. . .I would never suggest many drummers are not great musicians or have no place here. . . . Drums are prominent is nearly every genre and IMO play a huge roll in ensembles.
Bud +1, So why aren't drummers represented here sharing their work? Is it because of folks thinking that "drums belong in the background" and therefore drummers are not welcome here? If so, that's indeed quite sad and everyone's loss. I think you're being a little dramatic Bass Thumper. It's probably because they have no interest in being here or they've never even heard of BIAB.
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I would think that if you're a drummer that you would realize that your number one goal is to sit down, shut up and wait until someone asks you to do something.
And I'm not joking.
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I honestly can't think of a single drum solo where I didn't want to strangle the drummer way before the end of the solo Ha! This cracked me up! This is some classic BIAB forum cantankerousness! 
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Well for a change its the drummers who are taking the flak here, usually it's the bass player.
Well am I right in saying that a lot of the time the drummer does the count in on the drum kit to the rhythm of the song, and to me that is a pretty intuitive and skillful thing to do?
Saying that I probably don't pay enough attention to the drums if composing a song with biab, a couple of fills and that's about it.
Maybe some drummers who come on the forum think that the Showcase is only for songs or instrumentals, so it might be an idea for another Showcase where people would just play their instrument, drums or otherwise to a biab backing track.
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Maybe some drummers who come on the forum think that the Showcase is only for songs or instrumentals, so it might be an idea for another Showcase where people would just play their instrument, drums or otherwise to a biab backing track. I tried something similar to that on here a couple of times. They were songs I wrote and I stated that I was playing ALL of the instruments and singing backup. I got a lot of comments saying how I should use BIAB for my backing tracks and I did find that incredibly offense.
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Strange that, I would think if you fleshed out the idea on biab, but then played all the instruments yourself, then no reason not to showcase it.
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How would a drummer program the software?
I have only played with 2 drummers in my life who actually knew music, as in chords, keys, sharp, flats... The best drummer I ever played with was outstanding at keeping time, writing his own fills and such, and did a great job creating parts for originals where there was nothing to copy. But as far as writing songs, with song defined as "a melody and lyrics", he had no game. The second best drummer I ever played with was a keyboard player first, a guitar player second, and a drummer third. He DID have that game.
To compare those 2 people, very close in playing talent, the second could use PG software. The first could probably not. Again, how would he tell it what to play? You can't write a chord chart with hat hat hat hat snare snare snare snare kick kick kick kick...
So I don't really know what you are really asking/expecting drummers to do with this software.
I am in the old school music snob category that believes in the analogy of:
Drummer is to musician as punter is to football player.
There ARE punters out there who can also play a position. There ARE drummers out there who can play other instruments. You can point out many who can write like Phil Collins (and I expect everybody to do so - just like those so eager to tell me that Sinatra didn't write when the original vs cover discussion rears up again), but remember he is also a piano player, and in fact played ALL the instruments on the "Both Sides" album. Keeping in mind the functionality of this software for what, 98% of the users, is songwriting or at the very least cover track creation, those things call for music knowledge to enter chords patterns.
And again, yes you CAN download free midi files and stuff, but at what point are you actually doing anything creative if you go that route? I have done it, recently in fact, to see how to do it, but I readily admit that I did zero as far as creativity in doing so. I did it for 3 songs, and now the experiment is over. Expectations of ourselves vary. I don't like playing copy music to start with. That's just me. No more than I would scan in "A Tale Of Two Cities" and claim it was my book...
The fine line of all of this is the balance between man and machine. Peter Gabriel did a whole album with just a Fairlight CMI and a Linn drum machine. (It might have been "So" but I don't remember.) I'd hardly call Peter Gabriel a "cheater".
So again, what is your vision for drummers and this software? Just creating drum loops from Real Drums? You don't need to spend all this money to make drum loops. Garage Band will do that for you. Or any cheap Best Buy keyboard with a start button. You'd need "drummer ears and feel" to make decent loops, but remember that every kid out there with a laptop anymore thinks they are a producer (and a rapper) with that kind of toy level stuff.
I would trot out the old "Is someone who plays an instrument a musician or is a musician one who understand what makes music work?" thing again, but I'm too tired of debating it.
Last edited by eddie1261; 11/27/22 01:19 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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My personal opinion is more people are concerned with how drums sound versus the skill level of the drummer. Second, if you think about it when compared to other instruments there are very few songs created to highlight drums. PG Music has done a pretty good job of covering the basics. They use to release RealDrums separate from RealTracks but now, when needed, new RealDrums are included in RealTracks sets. When a user wants something different from a PG Music drum offering, virtual instruments plugins like Addictive Drums, Steven Slate Drums and EZ Drummer offer patterns, mixers, effects and sound modules. Then there are developers like Groove Monkey that offer midi patterns and loops. PG Music has used a fair number of percussionists and drummers. Here is a short list: Keita Ogawa, Jim McGillveray, Wes Little, Ed Clare, Michael White, Andrew Morris, Shannon Forrest, Wayne Killius, Land Richards, Ruairi Matthews, Terry Clarke, Craig Scott and Kenneth Blevins. There's more than those I listed. If there is a drummer specific style of playing in a specific genre that interest you, suggest it in the +++ Styles & RealTracks Wishlist +++ forum section.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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In my humble opinion drums and percussion should stay in the background where they belong.
Bob, I don't think you understand the question. I'm not asking where drums and percussion should lay in the mix, (foreground or background or middle ground) that's up to personal taste. I am asking why drummers and percussionists rarely (if ever) showcase their work at this site using BiaB as their backing track. In other words why aren't drummers showcasing their recordings here? Vocalists do, guitarists do, bass players do but not drummers . . . why is my question. My guess would be that drummers don't use BIAB that much, but I don't know.. For me a drum track is just a slightly better thing to have than a click track. It's not something I would want on a regular basis. Unless of course you're recording and then the drum track is the first thing you mute or delete. Why, how very close-minded of you. Sad.
Last edited by Byron Dickens; 11/27/22 06:41 PM.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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My first instrument was drums. In a few bands that I've been in, I've doubled on drums to give the drummer a chance to get up front and sing (or in one case play trombone) My primary instrument is saxophone. I also sing and play wind synthesizer, guitar, bass, flute, and keyboard synthesizer. You can hear my drumming on my aftermarket styles, https://www.nortonmusic.com for Band-in-a-Box (self-serving-plug). I think learning drums before melodic instruments was a good way to start my lifetime of music. In most pop music, drums are the backbone, and understanding that gave me a better understanding of what the other instruments add to that backbone and how they should do it. This is why I don't recommend substituting Real Drums for my MIDI styles. The rhythm section must work as a unit, and the drummer is the anchor the rest of the rhythm section relies on. The groove the drummer supplies is done mostly by feel, some beats and sub beats are either played before or after their beats. Which ones and how much depend on the style and/or the song, and they may be similar, but definitely not the same. For a simple example, one style 4/4 styles might have the 2s and 4s four tics behind the beat, and the rest of the rhythm section fall in to do the same thing. Now if you substitute a real drum style that has the 2s and 4s six tics behind the beat or four tics ahead of the beat, the rhythm section is no longer in lock-step. The result is slop instead of tight. You may not be able to hear the slop (depending on how sharp and practiced your ears are), but you will definitely be able to feel the difference. The eighth notes can also get involved, behind or ahead of their subdivision. This varies even more than the few ticks of the backbeat (2 and 4). The eighth behind the beat can be anywhere between a triple and a dotted eighth/sixteenth combination. Ahead of the beat varies less but is still flexible. And then we go with the sixteenths. Drummers shift them too. I also find this a problem with mixing real tracks. If two real tracks have a different groove, it bugs me. I've played in bands that work to have a tight rhythm section all my life. Recording backing bands like The Wrecking Crew, Swampers, Stax, and others know all about this, which is why their backgrounds are so tight. So when you play my styles, if BiaB substitutes a Real Drum track, turn it off and listen to the drums that are lock-step with the rhythm section. Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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BUT, Notes, could you have created those styles if you didn't know music? I ask that from the perspective of one who has never created a style and doesn't even know how I'd do that. How do you do that without having a chord progression? The only way I know how to use this software is to program a chord progression.
Also know that I am probably never going to try to create a style. I just want to know how it happens. Is it anything more than taking what PG gives us and "baking your own cake" with it? With all the tools and samples and clips and whatever we get in PG, though the number of possibilities is huge, the number is also finite.
This is much like the help Charlie gave me regarding working with MIDI files. Now that I know how to do that, it's like the extra pitching wedge in my bag. I may never hit that club, but I now have one of them.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Bass Thumper, I don't think I properly understood your observation and question during my first go round. As I understand it now, the comment is not many drummers post songs to the UserShowCase and the question is, wonder why?
My thinking on that is: drums are difficult to record by yourself, playtime is restricted because of the noise drums make when played and most drummers prefer to practice to songs they know versus create songs on their own. Finally I think many drummers prefer practicing on the kit they use versus an e-kit that doesn't have the same feel.
If you think about it there are a lot of musical instruments under represented in the UserShowCase.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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My thinking on that is: drums are difficult to record by yourself, playtime is restricted because of the noise drums make when played and most drummers prefer to practice to songs they know versus create songs on their own. Finally I think many drummers prefer practicing on the kit they use versus an e-kit that doesn't have the same feel.
If you think about it there are a lot of musical instruments under represented in the UserShowCase.
Jim, you may be right, but all these reasons have been overcome. Drummers practice to backing tracks of various sorts all the time. Here is an example of a guy that miced his analog kit and he very well may have written this backing track himself. Either way, I'm sure percussionists could find people here and elsewhere to collaborate with if they struggle with producing their own chord progressions. I would also like to hear unrepresented instruments beyond percussion in the Showcase but the lack of percussionists participating here stands out to me for the reasons in my original post. BiaB is an ideal tool for them. I wonder if they know this. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/580119995723048661/
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I would think that if you're a drummer that you would realize that your number one goal is to sit down, shut up and wait until someone asks you to do something.
And I'm not joking. Bob, you have written the most musically immature and juvenile posting I have ever read here or elsewhere.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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