The question is how does the Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) program use repeats as compared to sheet music repeats? How do similarities and differences help or hinder the use of repeats in Band-in-a-Box?
My understanding is sheet music repeats are a intended to reduce the amount of paper needed to display a song. For example sheet music may display 8 bars with 3 repeats so the musician knows to play the 8 bars 3 times for a total of 24 bars. The musician mentally goes in circles while following the sheet music. Essentially, there is only 8 bars of music for the musician to play.
Band-in-a-Box can display an 8 bars with 3 repeats. A printout will show 8 bars with 3 repeats. However, playback of the 8 bars may vary with each repeat depending on preference and song settings. Also, BiaB plays each of the 24 bars in sequence starting with bar 1 and going to bar 24. Band-in-a-Box plays 24 different bars.
I believe the differences above are why so many people, especially musicians that are proficient readers of sheet music, have difficulty understanding and using repeats in Band-in-a-Box. Agree? Disagree? Where does my theory run astray?
I've seen many forum members advise users to "unfold to 1 chorus" when questions regarding repeats are asked. The only reason I can think of why that advise is so prevalent is because Band-in-a-Box uses repeats differently than the way repeats are used in sheet music.
Jim. I don’t use BIAB for sheet music so I can’t comment on that. I export Music XML to another program. I think I’m pretty skilled on music notation though; I’ve made a lot of money doing charts and transcriptions (including some for PG Music). If the score has first, second, and third endings, then nothing more is needed to read it correctly. In some music, church hymns for example, the number of verses in the lyrics dictates. If there is no other clue, I add text over the repeat such as 2x so it means repeat twice, or in other words play three times total. It’s either 2x at the end repeat, or 3x over the first repeat, for ‘play three times’.
Is that at all helpful?
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I believe the differences above are why so many people, especially musicians that are proficient readers of sheet music, have difficulty understanding and using repeats in Band-in-a-Box. Agree? Disagree? Where does my theory run astray?
A reasonable question Jim.
I never have any issues with repeats, tag endings etc.
I never unfold.
I just set the start of the chorus, the end of the chorus and the number of repeats in the song heading. Then when I print, the repeats are already entered for me in the music score.
Repeats and Choruses in BiaB appear pretty much the same as purchased sheet music. There are no unreasonable differences for me.
It just works for me. Here is a small sample:
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The main reason I like it all unfolded (no repeats) is I may want different guitar solos or other small instrument differences from one verse section to the next. If you use the repeats, in my opinion, it's not as easy to have instruments do different things from one iteration of the repeat to another.
I especially like repeats because if I'm reading a chart, I can generally make the chart fit on 1 or 2 two pages, instead of perhaps 5 or 6. No page turning required during the performance (which is always challenging when maintaining continuity).
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Steve and AT, two totally different but valid reasons to have or don't have repeats.
For recording I use Steve's method. That gives me the option to make subtle or not so subtle changes to the song.
But if I were giving out charts I would definitely use AT's method for the identical reason.
AT, it is even worse for a guitarist to turn pages, at least you can still play something with the other hand while turning a page. That is unless you are one of those extremely loud guitarists, which I am not.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
When I was still playing the band did Springsteen's Rosalita. I wrote out my chart in modules. Int, V1, V2, bridge, chorus, etc... When we played it, I got lost trying to move around my pages from module to module. I had to take it home and write it top down. It was 8 pages and I had to tape it to cardboard to stay on a music stand, but that was the only way my linear brain could read that chart. That particular song has about 8 different modules to it and they don't play in any logical order, and I couldn't locate (for example) module 4 after module 7 fast enough to not have a dropout where I was trying to find the number. I had the module numbers written down the side of the page and when I ended a module I then had to remember what I just played, find it in the list, look at what the next one was, and then remember which time through module X we just played because some of them are played 3 or 4 times. It was a nightmare. So the best thing for me was to just wrote it head to toe on one chart.
What is sad is that when I was 30 I had everything memorized. At about 55 that was over. And now at 71, what did you say your name was?
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023? 2. Send it to us.
Interesting comments. To add PG Music's voice to the discussion I went to the Band-in-a-Box "Help" file (by pressing F1) and looked up the term "Repeats" in the Help index. The five pages are attached below.
As everyone mentioned, including me in my initial post, Band-in-a-Box uses repeats as a printing aid to reduce the number of pages that need to be printed.
AudioTrack's screen shots vividly illustrates how the program automatically converts the number of choruses into repeats. But ...
When you think of repeats strictly as a printing aid doesn't that hide how Band-in-a-Box can modify, or humanize if you wish, each chorus?
Good research Jim. Yes, over many years of development, many changes and additions have made some things awkward to identify.
Quote:
Now, another question. Since you can change the arrangement for each chorus is the idea that one chorus equals one repeat valid in Band-in-a-Box?
Well, generally speaking, Yes. In BiaB, each Chorus is considered to be one time through the entire song (less intros and endings if they are included).
One chorus equals one repeat, two choruses equals two repeats, unless there is a tag ending which might jump to the song ending before the end of the final chorus. I use tag endings also.
I'm making the assumption that a 'repeat' simply means "to perform that same musical section again", without changes to chords, notation or otherwise.
If a further part of a song was meant to be performed differently (different chords, different notation etc) then it wouldn't really be a 'repeat'.
As I mentioned earlier, I use repeats to minimize the number of printed pages. There's no right way or wrong way, I just use the method that works for me.
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Don't forget BIAB defaults to using the B substyle in middle choruses, which is what real players would often do, to vary the intensity. Since I don't use repeats in BIAB, how does that relate? Does BIAB vary the intensity during repeats? I doubt it.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Don't forget BIAB defaults to using the B substyle in middle choruses, which is what real players would often do, to vary the intensity. Since I don't use repeats in BIAB, how does that relate? Does BIAB vary the intensity during repeats? I doubt it.
For a multi-chorus song, if set (see below), the 'B' substyle always varies the intensity in the middle choruses if the B substyle allows. That is also how I would perform when playing live.
But of course, this does not change the notation nor melody nor chords that are used during those 'repeat' choruses, only the dynamics are affected.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I hope some users that have tried to using Band-in-a-Box repeats without success will chime in and relate their experience.
I do not read music so I may not be describing the relationship between repeats and sheet music correctly; especially the manner a musician thinks about repeats while reading sheet music. So, please feel free to correct me when my observations are wrong.
What I'm not understanding is why musicians that do read music but are new to Band-in-a-Box have trouble using repeats in Band-in-a-Box. Secondarily why does it seem that a common response is to "not use repeats but instead to unfold to one big chorus"?
I look at the chord sheet of demo songs and find that PG Music uses repeats a lot. It also appears they use the function key settings to add variety and humanize the choruses.
So, am I correct in thinking that, in general, a user can think of a Band-in-a-Box chorus as a repeat in sheet music?
[quote=Jim Fogle.............Secondarily why does it seem that a common response is to "not use repeats but instead to unfold to one big chorus"? .................. [/quote]
The answer for me Jim is very simple. Most of the time I don't know where my next chord or chord progression is going to be. So I do everything in the unfolded mode. Plus I do not print any notation so I don't need to use repeats. However if I did need to print I would use all of the tools available, i.e. repeats, codas, etc. YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Jim, no. BIAB uses the term ‘chorus’ to mean once through the song, minus any intro or tag. It’s the way jazz players think of it when they say ‘take a chorus’ and solo over the song form. BIAB was developed for practicing jazz fakebooks.
A repeat can occur over a much smaller number of measures, and you can have multiple repeats (of different sections) in the song.
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I've had several attempts to get the repeats working - very frustrating, perhaps I can get some pointers from you guys?
I'm having several issues;
I put in a simple repeat, a 16 bar song to play twice; it insists on playing 2 extra bars in between the repeats and at the end. I've turned off lead in bars.
A slightly more complicated repeat, first and second time bars - BIAB goes back to the beginning and plays chords other than the ones I've put in.
It also randomly changes the size of the bars when I don't ask it to, eg right now I can only see 8 bars on the whole screen.
Are the repeats any easier to use in the later editions? I'm using BIAB 2016, and I'm reluctant to go to the expense of upgrading if it's just as difficult to use.
Regular sheet music is straightforward and logical. I use Musescore for writing scores, BIAB seems to be using a different language, like it was written for people who haven't done regular music theory. I had to look up what a push, shot or hold is, and terms like chorus and coda have different meanings.
And working out how repeats work is my current headache.
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