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Review of a new Mini Pc thats got me cranked up....lol.
Caveats//Intro.
before someone 'yaps' at me having tried a mini pc in the past…
your needs might be different to mine. we all have different pc performance needs. some need a ton of traks and plug ins that need huge computing resources , and others dont.. like myself.
i subscribe to thinking of a producer i met once in a studio that said to me 'remember once great songs were done using very little'. so the type of pc i need supports up to 40 traks in a song with various/a smattering of low cpu plug ins.
(pg dx/reaps jsonic/some from computer music mag/the net)
so YMMV …youll have to do your own testing to see if a mini pc IS FOR YOU.
please NOTE i didnt want my lovely wife to spend lots of moolah (twas a delayed bday present from her cos i was still mulling various configs over.)
one reason i didnt want a lot of money spent by her was usb and cpu and other tech is advancing at a great rate now, and i'm watching carefully what apples strategy is with its 'M' cpu's (which excite me) cos i might get a mac mini in the next couple of years.
in summary this was a short term buy…but actually as it turns out has actually
'knocked my socks off'.... and might turn out to be a long time keeper.
(depending on day in/out dependability.)
in fact i will say 'im a chump' ..lol…and i completely underestimated its power.
its the 'bees knees' imho for little money.
Review of the mini PC.
after looking at loads of mini pc's…i ended up taking a chance with a…...
BEELINK SER 3 MINI PC. (see the net for detailed specs/reviews etc etc).
frankly its astonished me, and i dont get excited easily.
it cost just over 400 buckeroos on amazon.
brief specs.. are RYZEN 7 3750 H, 500gb m2 inside with a spare empty bay inside for sliding in a second drive.
16 gigs memory.
PROS ARE.
..i cant hear the fan. its quite.
..its a powerhouse. anything i throw at it,... its sorta mocking me..
'is that all ya got'...lol. my old stalwart refurb i5 laptop , realband reported 155 traks max. now with the mini pc , rb reports 255 traks.
..comes with win 11 pro installed, and boots fast.
(note…any recording pc i set up, doesnt see the net.)
..no probs so far running reaps/biab/rb.
..reapers and task mgrs performance views so far report the most minor pc resource usage ie just 'ticking over'. amazed me. but more testing to do.
..NO MAJOR BLOATWARE etc.
CONS ARE.
..would have liked a couple more usb ports, but no prob i just used a usb extender. my external dock (with 2 ssd's) runs like a 'bunny rabbit'.
..maybe this is a minor win 11 issue…dunno..but when i installed my audient drivers ,i was searching for the little audient user applet that lets various audio settings be changed , and couldnt find it. it turned out to be hiddon on the taskbar under ^..
so i pinned it to taskbar for easy access.
in conclusion , so far all is grrreat. i'm a happy lad.
but whether the mini pc can last years , i have no idea.
it was either this or a custom built for recording studios 2k pc, or a build it myself pc (parts price total isnt cheap) or another refurb. (my go to in the past).
whether a mini pc is for you..only you can determine that.
for me this solution offers great price/performance so far.
i'll report back if i get any probs.
happiness to all.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/28/22 03:28 AM.
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Caveat/intro:
Thanks Mike for providing the missing link.
Review:
The Audient setting isn't a BEELINK issue.
Conclusion:
Shopper's Sophistry.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Mike.
re congrats in other thread.
Thanks .
ive been doing more detailed testing today.
(with more detailed stress testing to do.)
some more observations.(for anyone reading about bee mini pc //ymmv.)
1..on this pc given ideally one would like core latency under 1000 micro secs or less…. it seems from what i see the core latency is way way less on the bee.
maybe 600 micro secs. (the notebookchek site has a listing of various pc systems and their latencies…obviously with no usb audio interface installed.)
apparently MS has been working to lower latency in win OS in recent years i understand.
2..i'm never gaming..but for those that do…i wouldnt expect a 400 buk pc like this with built in graphics to obviously have the gaming specs that a high end expensive pc might have with dedicated gpu. but i suspect if one was running less resource useage games..i dont see why it couldnt handle such.
3..i put my hand on the case occasionally , and just cant feel if its even getting warm.
yep i'm thinking of putting a second ssd inside.
best
om
ps i'm well aware the bee didnt cause the audient issue now solved. all working great.
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Don't worry about latency.
Those interfaces that went to the Cirrus chip family in 2019 boast Near Zero RTL over Fast USB 2 192kHz/24bit. Then they give some meaningless number like 4.16 or 3.59 ms RTL (round trip latency). The difference between 4.16 and 1.90 (Presonus over Thunderbolt 3 which your machine can't support) is the same as moving your ears +/- 14" closer or further away from your monitor speakers.
Nothing from Audent has those specs, BTW, which is why I can't recommend them. So many others do including M-Audio, Focusrite, MOTU, and 25 others, last I checked.
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Then they give some meaningless number like 416 or 359 ms RTL (round trip latency). The difference between 416 and 190 (Presonus over Thunderbolt 3 which your machine can't support) is the same as moving your ears +/- 14" closer or further away from your monitor speakers. Somethings awry with those numbers, Mike. Milliseconds would seem very wrong, so I imagine that's a typo, but microseconds would seem remarkably short. I also make the speed of sound about 14" per millisecond, which, unless I'm misunderstanding something, doesn't seem to match any of those.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon. re latencies. you might find this site of interest in comparing low latencies of various systems including mini pc's. if you click on a pc name in the list very detailed test data comes up. https://www.notebookcheck.net/DPC-Latency-Ranking-Which-laptops-and-Windows-tablets-offer-the-lowest-latency.504376.0.htmlit looks like the Ser 3 i have has very low latency if you page down a ways. i found it an interesting analysis. so far i'm having great fun with this mini beelink pc. and am impressed. (ymmv) Mike. i might in the future go with a mac mini also. cos i like the M cpu strategy. best om
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Somethings awry with those numbers, Mike Some makers post miliiseconds, others post microseconds. I've edited the other post to be more consistent. The MOTU M4, for example, states Windows driver with 2.5 ms Round Trip Latency (32 sample buffer at 96 kHz)
Mac driver (optional, for 2.5 ms RTL@32/96 kHz and loopback feature) With CoreAudio, the spec for the Mac is 3.16 ms. Other devices are spec'ing as long as 4.53 ms. The Presonus Thunderbolt 3 interface is 1.9 ms and I've seen another that rates theirs as 1.1 ms while trying to convince you that the extra speed is worth the additional $2,000. Again, it's all Marketing nonsense. If you do the math with the speed of sound at sea level, you'll see that +/- 14" is about right and that RTL over "Fast USB 2" is more than fast enough.
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I've edited the other post to be more consistent. Ah, right ... I did wonder if it was a decimal point issue.
Again, it's all Marketing nonsense. If you do the math with the speed of sound at sea level, you'll see that +/- 14" is about right and that RTL over "Fast USB 2" is more than fast enough.
They wouldn't print nonsense would they  I reckon <= 10ms is fine for most purposes. It's notable that on stage, when the PA is relatively distant, that delays and echo-type effects can be quite disorienting. Thanks Mike. Clear now.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon. well ive had lots of time to work with bee mini now. (i might get a mac mini yet to compare.) yep i'm a big fan now of mini pc's. this thing is FAST. and dont get me started on m2 tech. WOW !..INSANE SPEED. i see a future where all is mini..not just pc's but hopefully mini cheap lectric cars with a 1000 mile range..and mini nuclear products that a homeowner can install or a street or estate for free electricity (to also charge the lectric car..lol.) the one thing that concerns me bout lotsa lectronics these days is emf/radn effects after reading some articles recently on such. i was blinkin' amazed and thought this aspect had been solved in modern products. just google computer emf radiation and heart palpitations. lots of articles eg emf academy. https://emfacademy.com/imac-radiation/notice the comment bout 'wifi'..another reason i dont put the studio pc on the net. i'm getting a emf tester for my n' wifes gear. best om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/26/22 05:37 AM.
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Yep ... almost every PC I now have is a low-energy and mini.
There's a lot of spurious (excuse the pun) information about EMF. One of the classics is people being frightened of the radiation from mobile 'phone masts, whilst ignoring that their mobile 'phone turn down it's own transmit power when it's getting good clean transmission ... so it turns down the transmitter next to your ear if it sees microWatts of power from the base station. Radiation from electronic equipment is pretty tightly regulated. It may be in some peoples' interests to encourage hysteria about these things.
That said, mobile 'phones at their higher power close to the head are not a great idea. Power, of course, drops with the cube of the range from the transmitter, so it drops very quickly.
Around the mid 70s whilst I was working on a system for the fire service, which system used packet transmissions over their voice radio network, I used to consider that, one day, maybe we would have mobile 'phones that used packet data over a network of interlinked tiny radio base-stations. I wonder what became of that idea? I didn't actually get to work on the design of a system like that until about 1995. Sadly it turned out that the company couldn't really afford to do it and we terminated the project (very rare for me).
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon.
re TEMPS.
yep i'm amazed at this mini pc n' heat dont seem to be a prob. considering its power.
frankly it leaves my old refurb i5 (that i did loads of songs with using biab/rb/reaps).in the dust.
just a pc build would cost me more for parts.
for a couple of hundred quid i'm not complaining mate cos the tech is gonna get even more advanced anyways n' change.
(also the worst ISR exec time i could see on a OS kernel mode driver.. was extremely low at a few microsecs.).
my audient interface is running (with v v low latency ) like a bunny rabbit….(a reason i like the audient usb drivers.)
(ps the gig performer site has an interesting article bout troubleshooting dpc issues. i have no issues.)
it looks like going with a lower wattage mini was the correct decision.
cos technically going with higher power cpu's means more heat/wattage etc.
i guess more cores//transistors/and..if i remember my electronics (your better than i) more transistors stuffed on the cpu wafers..and impact of 'gate lengths' and jolly old laws of physics.
i really like the lower power ryzen 3750 h. its a good compromise considering its performance. it can do way way more traks than i ever need in a song.
and biab/rb/reaper all are running great.
i can only wonder how powerful these mini pc's will be in a few years.
re EMF etc.
yep i dont want to get obsessed bout emf, its just my doctors are impressing on me always that as one gets older, one has to look after oneself and... excercise/nutrition/diet etc etc.
so, just in case..lol…the mini is way over the other side of the room.
best
om
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i guess more cores//transistors/and..if i remember my electronics (your better than i) more transistors stuffed on the cpu wafers..and impact of 'gate lengths' and jolly old laws of physics. Yes, though newer silicon geometries are getting around the expected limits. There was a time only a very few years back when they reckoned they'd hit the limits of small geometries because the energy loss through leakages exceeded the energy loss from operation. We've passed that 'limit' a while back now. Physics still says "not so fast" fairly regularly. "Gravity isn't just a good idea ... it's the law!"
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon.
it looks like moores law was wrong i feel cos we have plateaued so long in the processor speed department.
we should be up to a zillion ghz by now lol.
as a old uni prof of mine used to say.
'the laws of physics will beat you always'
i want to see how apples m series of cpu's handle the heat problem. and how intel n' amd handle it too.
best
om
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Gordon.
it looks like moores law was wrong i feel cos we have plateaued so long in the processor speed department.
we should be up to a zillion ghz by now lol.
as a old uni prof of mine used to say.
'the laws of physics will beat you always'
i want to see how apples m series of cpu's handle the heat problem. and how intel n' amd handle it too.
best
om
Moore's Law was probably always going to hit an end-stop eventually. It's plateaued a bit, but not entirely. Whilst speed rises have largely stalled, the number of CPU cores has compensated somewhat for that. Somethinh like quantum or optical computing could still show this slow-down as a speed-bump, not a barrier.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon. an interesting site for mini pc's is… https://liliputing.com/tag/mini-pc/you prolly know it. minisforum and geekcom are two i'm following. frankly i was totally wrong bout mini pc's. i'm gobsmacked by the mini. thought they were only good for surfing/messageing etc etc…lol. no matter what i throw at this pc , i cant hear any fan noise and its not taxed. i dont know how you fared in 'tech' ..frankly i wouldnt do it again as a career mate. what i found was either the employers didnt wanna pay, or if they did, one had no personal life cos they wanted us to work 24/7, or end users often were cheesed off cos us techs made more. so i dont feel sorry for companies that bleat they cant get techs. i worked all over… prolly the worst place i worked was Canada because of the above reasons… what i dont understand bout Canada is they bring in loads of new people each year (obviously to keep wages down) while Canada doesnt look after the people it already has. eg 1 in 7 kids go to school hungry , loads of poor seniors, stressed health care system thats broken, and food banks and lots of homeless. ridiculous. personally, instead of getting highly educated at uni in uk etc ..bottom line i prolly would have done better leaving school at 16 and trying to buy a pub lol. what i'm interested to see is how apple markets the macs in the coming years with the superb new M processors. will they follow the iphone strategy ? ie a new one yearly to tempt users to buy the new model with new features etc etc. but surely (due to the laws of physics) there is a limit/brickwalls they will come up against ?? gonna be interesting times. will apple bring out an even smaller mini pc ? you prolly know more bout ARM cpu tech than i. IS THERE A SPEED LIMIT to ARM for apple ? happiness. om
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frankly i was totally wrong bout mini pc's.
i'm gobsmacked by the mini.
thought they were only good for surfing/messageing etc etc…lol.
no matter what i throw at this pc , i cant hear any fan noise and its not taxed. A huge amount of the progress is related to keeping the waste energy low. Whilst raw CPU performance increases have slowed a bit, wasted energy is a 'hidden' part that's actually a big change. i dont know how you fared in 'tech' ..frankly i wouldnt do it again as a career mate.
what i found was either the employers didnt wanna pay, or if they did, one had no personal life cos they wanted us to work 24/7, or end users often were cheesed off cos us techs made more. so i dont feel sorry for companies that bleat they cant get techs. Aye. I thoroughly enjoyed my job and I made huge contributions to the companies for which I worked, humanity, life saving, research and more. In the past I would commend engineering for that, but not now. No, it never paid anything like it should. Worse than that, my last company turned me over big time. I was driven out of a spin-off company I helped found and which almost certainly would have failed without me. The founding CEO "thought" I'd been employed within the parent company to take his job away and the sales guy we recruited turned out to be an extreme narcissist. instead of getting highly educated at uni in uk etc ..bottom line i prolly would have done better leaving school at 16 and trying to buy a pub lol. Hmm, well, actually I did leave school (actually at 15, but "officially" 16), but I was fortunate to get an excellent technician apprenticeship that set me up very well technically. I think we covered more than the typical degree, minus a thesis, but plus real work in a tech environment. By the time I was in my late twenties, I was mentoring people with doctorates. Strange but true. I ran a club bar in my early/mid twenties as a not-the-day-job. I can tell you that it's hard work. With the day job as well I was working 90 hours most weeks and drinking far too much.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Gordon.
what i'm trying to figure right now is a couple things.
1..as well as the regular usb ports bee mini has a usb-c data only port.
so i'm trying to figure out what types of external devices/docks/extenders etc i can hook up to it. i presume anything that supplies its own power rather than needing power from a usb port.
and other thing is…
2..i have a dual 2.5 ssd dock hooked up to one of the regular usb ports.
great transfer speeds. great for backing up songs in progress or all traks etc when song finished…BUT i'm curious if i could take out the current two 2.5 ssd's , and replace with two m2 ssd's , each in a m2>2.5 sata enclosure can be done..ie would i see a big transfer speed diff over the current 2.5 sata ssd's.
it sounds like we both have had colourful careers lol.
just one example of many of the tech lunacy i went through….'
a short time after a company hired me on , the ceo was replaced by a new tough ceo.
who promptly told me he wanted me to fire a bunch of people and keep moi.
i couldnt do it, as the people had mortgages n' kids etc etc.
so i walked n' told him to stuff it. head office was shocked cos apparently no one went up against this titan…but i got my life principles…a typical brit i am.
easy come easy go lol. quickly found another job.
like you i often wonder what might have happened if i'd gone to aussie…but then i wouldnt have met my lovely wife. cant have it all. i still feel the uk is great if one is born into wealth but if your not..like me being a cockney lad raised in london…..
i had two choices , become a 'wide boy spiv '/doing dodgy stuff (i love 'only fools etc' tv show) to make a living or go to uni.
i chose the latter. i gotta hand it to the uk uni system…i went in to uni 'wet behind the ears', and g raduated as very mature with huge amounts of knowledge.
but then i ran into the old spiel from employers ....'your over educated'...sigh….so i dumbed myself down…lol.
i might get a mac mini , maybe a refurb m2 mini once the new m3 minis come out.
i feel the next 5 years are gonna be mighty interesting for us creators who need power.
i'm getting big trak counts in my bee mini tests. way more than i would use in a song..
the mac mini interests me cos i could see what logic daw might do for moi.
yep a friend of mine had a uk pub…one is tied to it. lotsa work.
yay england is up 2-0. but i wanted wales to get thru also as i once lived there.
best.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 11/29/22 10:23 AM.
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i still feel the uk is great if one is born into wealth but if your not..like me being a cockney lad raised in london…..
...
yay england is up 2-0. but i wanted wales to get thru also as i once lived there.
I may try to make sense of the USB-C port, but my gut feeling is that you may well not gain much by putting the two drives on it. I'm cockney too, Where in London? Actually, don't answer here, I'll PM. I too always feel sad when one of the other nations gets knocked out. Having four nations one can support is great, but it also means having at least three that will get knocked out.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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USB-C is a port only, it is not a protocol. What you can hook up and how depends on the protocols your PC supports through it. BTW, I answered this for you already. Your USB-C port supports USB 3.1. Hooking anything faster to it will be limited to USB 3.1 and there's no workaround.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,560
Posts734,422
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Jan 19th, 2020
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