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Ray Parker Junior (Ghostbusters) said in a documentary "hell you know you got a hit when you get sued !! LOL" What he meant was that you can take almost any song and within the 7 notes probably come up with a similar song. As far as the question asked in this post I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them. The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. If that's not enough protection then I'm out of luck. Plus if I wanted to go after someone for "stealing" my song I probably would need a load of cash in attorney's fees to even get close and if that person is connected to a major record company I'm pretty much out of luck. I would hope that if someone felt the need to "steal" my song they will come back to me for other songs and maybe I'd get some kind of deal. But as far as going the Government route and Copyrighting my songs I never bother. So, you trust a Russian company to protect your songs? You shouldn’t because they don’t. In their own words. TuneCore and Copyright Does TuneCore copyright my songs? The following information is regarding TuneCore's Publishing Administration service No, TuneCore does not register songs with the Copyright Office. According to copyright law, the composer owns the copyright to a composition as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium (written down or recorded) Pursuant to the US copyright act, once a work is in a fixed form i.e. recorded to mp3 or CD, or written down, you are protected under copyright laws. However, registering your copyright with the Library of Congress makes this ownership part of the public record. This formal record affords the composer/author additional benefits. In other words, if a work is registered with the copyright office the author/composer has a stronger claim against infringements and better damage compensation as a result of infringement. You may complete the registration process online at https://www.copyright.gov/registration/ The PA form (Work of the Performing Arts) is the form used to register a composition (lyrics and music) The SR form (Sound Recording) is the form used to register the master or audio/sound recording only Let’s be very clear: Tunecore may be distributing your songs and collecting certain royalties on your behalf but they are clear that You are the Publisher, not they. BMI does not protect you either and they don’t claim to. Again, none of this matters if no one rips you off by a) claiming your work as theirs or b) covering your work without paying you. Do what you want how you like — no one is stopping you. Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
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Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice. FWIW, I'm largely with Henry on this. If someone rips off my IP, unless I have very deep pockets to take them to court ... and win, it's just "tough".
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Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice. FWIW, I'm largely with Henry on this. If someone rips off my IP, unless I have very deep pockets to take them to court ... and win, it's just "tough". You misunderstood again. Claiming to be published by Tunecore when he is not and thinking that he is somehow protected by BMI… That’s just stupid. Nothing can protect anyone from that. Individuals cannot sue except over Unpublished works. Only Publishers sue over Published works in the US, UK and EU and for that, the correct certificates must be filed and no damages are due before the certificate date. Individuals often act as Publishers, of course, but not knowing that you are publishing? Sorry that you disagree but I called that one for what it is. Do what you want or don’t but at least go in with your eyes open. As for your ‘deep pockets’ nonsense, a good attorney knows what’s winnable. Almost no Copyright suits actually see a courtroom. I gave the link to Justia —do a BMI search and see what happens. BMI doesn’t actually sue—it’s the publishers—but they handle the evidence gathering and often the negotiations.
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This thread keeps going round and round and round in circles.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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GH...i tend to agree . but a last kick of the can from moi...lol. cos ive never received answers that resolve the following conundrums when ive posed em'.
ALL.
heres a couple of challenges//posers for people as there are lots of very knowledgeable here..viz TWO CASES.
(ive posed these q's before to very educated people in the past without resolution….
thus the challenge.)
SCENARIO 1.
a young very talented struggling musician, after many years of little money, produces a song that the world loves and then starts making serious money.
BUT then along comes someone or a corporation who says thats like my xyz song…
and a major case ensues.
HOW IS THAT POOR MUSICIAN EXPECTED TO CHECK ALL THE ZILLION SONGS BEFORE HIS ?? (there are only so many chords n' note combos.).
its an unsolveable conundrum imho..now
SCENARIO 2.
another young musician goes thru' all the process and expense of getting protection for a song creation….which raises 2 questions…viz
a.. i'm having trouble understanding how the legal entities go about granting rights to this second musician and check the submission is unique n' unassailable.
do they have a bank of supercomputers checking the zillions of songs submitted before this latest one from the young musician. ? ie HOW DO THEY CHECK ?
it would seem an impossibility to me.
b..am i correct in thinking that even if the young musician has all the protections in place that STILL someone could say thats like my song…and an 'argey bargey' ensues.
given the above and my understanding that even if a musician goes thru' the appropo channels/expense problems for that musician can still ensue…
thus i would tend to agree with henry and gordon.
(or should we all go home n' stop doing songs ?)
i'm curious if someone can respond to the challenges of the above cases/conundrums with solutions.
happiness to all.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/19/23 06:03 AM.
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This is what I understood: "I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them.". FWIW, I should have sued my ex-employer over their treatment of me. I didn't because all the advice fitted into four groups: 1) The parent company can afford to fight you for as long as it takes to bankrupt you. 2) Even if/when you win it is unlikely that you will be awarded sufficient damages to cover your legal costs. 3) As a white, middle-aged, male, you have hardly any hope of winning because nobody will support you. 4) Because of effects of the stress they've already put you through, the stress of facing aggressive lawyers will probably kill you. That despite solid documentary evidence that my ex-employer lied to me and about me in a nasty attempt to discredit me. Nothing to do with copyright, of course. It's no accident that many cases are fought in American courts where the payouts can be far larger.
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Ray Parker Junior (Ghostbusters) said in a documentary "hell you know you got a hit when you get sued !! LOL" What he meant was that you can take almost any song and within the 7 notes probably come up with a similar song. As far as the question asked in this post I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them. The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. If that's not enough protection then I'm out of luck. Plus if I wanted to go after someone for "stealing" my song I probably would need a load of cash in attorney's fees to even get close and if that person is connected to a major record company I'm pretty much out of luck. I would hope that if someone felt the need to "steal" my song they will come back to me for other songs and maybe I'd get some kind of deal. But as far as going the Government route and Copyrighting my songs I never bother. So, you trust a Russian company to protect your songs? You shouldn’t because they don’t. In their own words. TuneCore and Copyright Does TuneCore copyright my songs? The following information is regarding TuneCore's Publishing Administration service No, TuneCore does not register songs with the Copyright Office. According to copyright law, the composer owns the copyright to a composition as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium (written down or recorded) Pursuant to the US copyright act, once a work is in a fixed form i.e. recorded to mp3 or CD, or written down, you are protected under copyright laws. However, registering your copyright with the Library of Congress makes this ownership part of the public record. This formal record affords the composer/author additional benefits. In other words, if a work is registered with the copyright office the author/composer has a stronger claim against infringements and better damage compensation as a result of infringement. You may complete the registration process online at https://www.copyright.gov/registration/ The PA form (Work of the Performing Arts) is the form used to register a composition (lyrics and music) The SR form (Sound Recording) is the form used to register the master or audio/sound recording only Let’s be very clear: Tunecore may be distributing your songs and collecting certain royalties on your behalf but they are clear that You are the Publisher, not they. BMI does not protect you either and they don’t claim to. Again, none of this matters if no one rips you off by a) claiming your work as theirs or b) covering your work without paying you. Do what you want how you like — no one is stopping you. Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stup First of all BOY this is my opinion and not advice. It's my personal view so don't call my opinion "STUPID". That [*****] ain't gonna work.
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Opinion is opinion.
Where there is no sense the opinion is nonsensical.
That status can be a matter of opinion but should be based on a matter of fact.
Something deemed nonsensical may be clarified so that it makes sense.
No one used the term stupid in reference to you Henry - other than you, that is.
"BOY", on the other hand, is a derogatory term you chose to use. You stooped to some low points in that short post.
As to TuneCore:
"Copyright fraud allegations
TuneCore has had multiple instances where their services are used to commit copyright fraud through online services like iTunes, Spotify, and Youtube. In one case, independent artists represented by TuneCore uploaded unreleased tracks by artists Playboi Carti and Lil Uzi Vert to Spotify. Plays of these tracks resulted in revenue going to the independent artists who were not the original owners of the music. In a similar case, TuneCore was sued by Round Hill Music for uploading and collecting revenue from iTunes for compositions owned by Round Hill. In a third case, TuneCore submitted copyright claims over a streamed performance of public domain classical music by Brett Yang and Eddy Chen of Twoset Violin, collecting revenue from the stream that would otherwise have gone to the performers."
As to the parent company:
"Believe has been accused of copyright trolling, particularly on YouTube, where it has been alleged to engage in claiming copyright for works that are either copyright free or that they do not own the rights to. The company was the subject of a New York federal lawsuit alleging that they were behind large scale, willful copyright infringement."
I suspect "The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. ", should read 'The songs I release are distributed through TuneCore, I am also a member of BMI.' TuneCore does list publishing as a service but access to any information is blocked for non account holders - that doesn't bode well. BMI collects royalties for performance of registered works - oft times from the places TuneCore/Believe distributes to.
I suspect that the company may be something to be suspicious of.
Cheers
rayc
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No one used the term stupid in reference to you Henry - other than you, that is. Yes someone did, on the basis that the person perceived Henry's post as advice. I read Henry's post as opinion, i.e.: here's how I feel about it and what I do. At no point did he advise anyone to do anything. Henry makes, IMHO, extremely good and accessible tutorials on using BiaB and I quite often suggest to newcomers that they look to his videos rather than PG Music's videos, because I think thay are more pragmatic and digesible for a newcomer. YMMV. Some months back Henry quit the fora and closed off all his tutorials in protest at the way he perceived people were behaving towards him. Several of us persuaded him to open his tutorials again and just have a rest from the fora ... have a break, unwind, whatever. He appears to have been back only a few weeks at most and he's being lambasted for his opinion. Calm down guys. Critique/caveat where appropriate, but keep it in perspective for goondess sakes.
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"Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid." Does imply that Henry or his opinion is stupid. It states that offering something as advice is stupid. Now the difference is significant...rather like saying a certain behaviour is bad rather than the child exhibiting that behaviour being bad.
EVEN if my interpretation was completely wrong it doesn't excuse the term used in response.
Gordon, you wrote:
"...the way he perceived people were behaving towards him."
"...back only a few weeks at most and he's being lambasted for his opinion."
You seem to have missed the common factor - & I don't mean just me.
"I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice." Each experience is offered by a commenter is a form of advice. Q What do you do when...? A. Well, I... It's not explicitly saying do this not that but it implies that this works. There's also the fact that the O.P really does ask for advice so each offering related to the question and request is a form of advice.
Most folk can cope with having their opinion challenged. Most folk either back up their opinion with fact, reach for sophistry as a means of defense, agree to disagree, modify their opinion based on evident fact, or cry foul, (or fowl), before running.
I reread the appropriate sections of the thread. I can accept your interpretation of the use of stupid but I don't read it that way. We disagree. I'm not going to start name calling though.
Mike can be hot fingered o posts BUT he did do some research so must've had some time to reflect before pressing "submit". He's a very opinionated keyboard warrior - as are many of us. He'd likely describe it as not suffering fools gladly which is a bit of sophistry in & of itself I suppose. I've jousted with him a few times - we don't see eye to eye often.
Henry, on the other hand, won't suffer contradiction or constructive criticism.
He's good, but not really of the status that requires an apologist.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Henry is not being lambasted for his opinion. I called out his statement that he was published by Tunecore and protected by BMI … neither is true and no amount of “opinion” changes this. Failure to due diligence on one’s own works is naive at best but, with all the resources out there, I gave it a different name. My opinion is unchanged.
He doesn’t have to protect his works. I don’t care one way or the other. It costs some money and takes a bit of paperwork. Many chose not to do it but patting oneself on the back for not knowing how things work? If I didn’t point out why he was wrong, that would be irresponsible of me. If Henry wants to apologies to me, that’s cool but I’m good if he doesn’t.
Ray’s summation of Tunecore barely scratches the surface. Fighting their takedown notices often involves a cease and desist letter from your attorney. A lot more expensive and usually avoidable by submitting a copy of Registered Form PA. Tunecore, like most bullies, usually backs down when challenged but telling them that they are infringing on your copyrights takes more than just telling them—you do need to submit documentation or a letter from your attorney. The Brazilian bots are easier to fight, BTW.
I have no intention of trying to parse oldmuseo’s hypotheticals. That would involve speculation bordering on practicing law.
I’ll get to the big case that cost a naive writer an estimated $18M later this week when I get home. Am in NYC at the moment taking in a few shows and the Met.
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I don't ask or expect for you opinion to change.
I do think it might have be better to give caveates about Tunecore and BMI, rather than use the term 'stupid', which was almost guaranteed to be taken personally.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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justanoldmuso, you can't cheat the algorithm. ...do they have a bank of supercomputers checking the zillions of songs submitted before this latest one from the young musician. ? ie HOW DO THEY CHECK ?
it would seem an impossibility to me... You are right about this. They have this proprietary technology to check the pitch pattern of your audio against their massive copyright database. The technology is scary. Take YouTube Content ID as an example. Years ago I was working on a TV show trailer video editing project. I found a copyrighted score music, really liked it. So I downloaded the music, dragged into a waveform editing software, changed the tempo, transposed the pitch, applied a multi band compression and a dynamic EQ, exported to a new wav file, inserted into my video project. Guess what? When I uploaded my final video to YouTube, it took YouTube less than 20 seconds to detect my audio contains copyrighted content, and issued me a copyright claim, the video was instantly demonetized. I was shocked by the technology. The detection was based on the relative pitch pattern, regardless of the key, tempo, or volume. It was a mess. Later I had to drag that copyrighted music into a DAW, quantized it, added a background cello with low volume, re-insert to the video, re-upload to YouTube, to circumvent the Content ID detection. Lesson learned, don't mess with the Content ID. Always remix a copyrighted music before use.
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I want to say a few words about Henry Clarke. This dude is the only YouTuber out there teaching BiaB. Gordon Scott is not lying, Henry's tutorials are ten times better than the official PG Music tutorials. ...I quite often suggest to newcomers that they look to his videos rather than PG Music's videos, because I think thay are more pragmatic and digesible for a newcomer... This is true. PG's videos are all about "WHAT & WHERE". Henry Clarke's videos are about "HOW & WHY". PG's tutorials are basically telling you WHAT a new feature is, and WHERE to click to open it. Henry's tutorials are telling you HOW to use this feature in a real life scenario, and WHY he chose to use it. Some months back Henry quit the fora and closed off all his tutorials in protest at the way he perceived people were behaving towards him. Several of us persuaded him to open his tutorials again and just have a rest from the fora ... have a break, unwind, whatever. Can someone explain what had happened? What did people do to Henry that made him want to quit YouTube? Is there a link to the original thread? My only complaint about Henry Clarke is the quantity of his content. Things like Soloist, Melodist, RealStyle Picker, etc, are quite complicated stuff, require multiple episodes with multiple examples to demonstrate. Henry did only one episode for each one, but he can definitely do more episodes on the same topic and explain the details and nuances with different examples. I disagree on the statement Henry's videos are helpful for newcomers. Lots of his tips and tricks stuff are helpful for both newcomers and seasoned BiaB users like me. Henry Clarke is the Morgan Freeman of BiaB education.
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I'm not a civil court judge, but I'd like to offer a settlement deal on the dispute between Henry Clarke and Mike Halloran.
To Henry Clarke
You never want to put all your eggs in one basket, let alone Putin's basket. If the US sanctions are getting worse in the future, maybe consider withdrawing from TuneCore and transfer the rights to a distributor on the American soil.
To Mike Halloran
You have already given insightful opinions on LOC and legal aspects. Could you also give some advice on the distributors?
90% of the young musicians are not yet famous. All they want is to focus their time on making music, find a reliable distributor to publish, collect some royalty income, publicize on YouTube and TikTok, get attentions, and eventually sign a deal with a record label. The lawyers of the record label will take care of their paperwork on copyright.
I have put up a list of 21 best known online distributors/publishers. Please indicate which ones are legit, which ones are to be avoided.
• Amuse
• AWAL
• CD Baby
• DistroKid
• Ditto
• Fresh Tunes
• Horus Music
• Landr
• Level
• ONErpm
• Record Union
• Repost Network
• Reverb Nation
• RouteNote
• Songtradr
• Soundrop
• Spinnup
• Stem
• Symphonic
• TuneCore
• UnitedMasters
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
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MV.
thanks for responding to my two scenarios upthread.
I appreciate your response..and the example of your experience you gave.
possibly i wasnt clear in the 2 scenarios i presented so let me explain further.
(yes having worked in tech for many years, i'm aware of patterns etc.)
i was trying to get at the following scenario…(sorry if i wasnt clear)...
lets consider a dirt poor musician in a very poor country who studies music in the only music school, and said muso creates a fab song.
now lets consider by 'fate' or 'karma' that someone with 'influence' visits the country and hears the fab song and sends it to a friend working at a small radio station in a wealthy country who plays the song…
and suddenly the word gets around and the song makes a ton of money.
(note at this point the song hasnt been on the net or input to pattern tech.)
in the above scenario how is the poor muso who created the fab song originally expected to check the previously created zillion of songs ?
maybe the poor muso isnt even aware of net sites that host songs for example.
in addition what about people who innocently post their creations in the pg user showcase ?
should these folks be submitting the appropo paperwork to the appropo authorities and get their blessing before posting on the showcase ?. this would be highly expensive for many musos who possibly cant afford the outlay of money…like the dirt poor muso example i gave.
frankly the whole topic baffles me…it sounds like a case of a no winner for the poor muso cited..
cos even if the poor muso has all the appropo sign offs
still a well funded entity making a claim has deep pockets for advisors etc…etc.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/26/23 03:13 AM.
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Here’s evidence of a poor person not being in receipt of just rewards: Seeking justice for Lion Sleeps Tonight composer https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-55333535
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<< I'm not a civil court judge, but I'd like to offer a settlement deal on the dispute between Henry Clarke and Mike Halloran. >>
There's no dispute. Mike Halloran misquoted Mr. Henry.
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Looks like an old muso is caring about a poor muso.
Here're my answers.
Scenario 1
Maybe a poor muso should be more concerned about getting food than getting fame and money. If you can't sustain your life, what's the point of becoming famous?
I do this all the time. Going to TikTok Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, and listen to their popular songs, and if the melody is good, I'll just take it and use it in my own songs. Of course, I will change a few notes here and there, fill with new lyrics, make a new BiaB backing, then it becomes a brand new song.
Scenario 2
Rule Number One: Never try to sue anybody. The time and money spent on litigation are not worth it.
Rule Number Two: By the time when you get sued, you already have the resource to reach a settlement. Nobody wants to sue you unless they know you have fame and money.
As to posting to the User Showcase forum, a simple publishing service provided by a distributor would suffice.
For 99.9% of the people in the muso community, the most important thing would be: "How can I get famous, so other people will be interested in suing me?"
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.
Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator
With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!
In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter
Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!
Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!
Breaking News!
We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!
A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"
Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos
With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!
Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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Forums66
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