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Good day all...
I have been working on a song and I noticed that when the song starts playing from the first bar of the song the "band" just bangs into play. All the instruments just come in at the same time.
Of course, this isn't something new - it has always been this way. I was sitting back listening to what I've done and started to wondering if anyone has tips or tricks to make it sound like a live band starting off a song. They never just come in at exactly the same time.
This isn't a real problem for me, I'm just thinking if anyone else notices this and may have a way they use to address it.
Bobby
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I think about this with every song I make, BIAB or whatever. Its called arranging the song. If you don't know how to do it, get a producer, its his job  . A few things I like to ... Let it build, it is all about anticipation, tension and release... Let the bass and drums sit out a few bars Change up the tempo at the song beginning with Ritardando
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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May I ask, do you mean all the instruments enter at the same basic time rather than starting with drums, adding bass, etc. to "ease into" a song? If that's what you want, use F5 to mute/un-mute instruments, or use the audio editing for more exact control.
Or, do you mean they all play at exactly the same instant to start measure one, as only a machine could do in real life?
If it's the second, I can tell you I use BIAB for jazz and Latin, and particularly in jazz, the guitar will often enter a fraction ahead of the beat at the beginning of the song. Stylistically, this sounds 'real'. For whatever other genre you may be asking about, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to see this done elsewhere besides the jazz RealTracks.
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First, I don't think there is any way to start a song that is more correct than any other way.
It is pretty common to let things build both in complexity and volume.
I rarely use anything from BIAB precisely as it comes out. The quicker I can get out of BIAB and into Studio One, the better.
If you listen to the demos in BIAB, they are rarely arranged very well and seldom what a live musician would typically do in many cases.
There are many ways to control volume in multiple areas of a track. Specific notes, phrases, and sections can be muted in any DAW. If you listen to really well-done songs on the user showcase, I think you will find a lot of work goes into creating the song and much of that work is done in a DAW.
Some things are considered standards, like not covering the vocalist's voice. Whoever is in the lead should be "supported" by the other components of the arrangement.
There are times when I want everything possible I can get in the first few measures. That was sort of a trademark of our band. I want you to stop talking, put down your drink, and start walking toward the stage. We used to do that on the first song of almost every set.
Listen to the music you like and try to copy some of the processes you hear that you want.
Perhaps there are ways to get what you want to hear directly out of BIAB. I have asked many people here if they thought that was possible. No one has said yes, I can do that. They have all said, sure, you can do simple stuff like mute certain things or change the timing, but more complex things are better done in a DAW. That DAW could be almost any DAW, RealBand, Pro Tools, Cakewalk, Studio One 6 Pro, and a dozen others.
You are the person who is creating the song, and the way it started should be your decision, not BIAB or any other thing except your creativity and skill.
Billy
EDIT: Some notable intros to songs.
The Jackson 5 - I Want You Back
Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run ( No Vinnie drumming in BIAB...lol)
Fleetwood Mac - Need Your Love So Bad ( This intro is as old as the hills and has been used by dozens of blues guitar players to significant effect)
The Beatles - Come Together ( The prototype for a drummer and a bass player joined at the hip)
Devo- Whip It ( Like them or hate them, they are instantly recognizable)
I could go on with some of the stuff straight out of Compton, Ca, in the more modern gangsta rap style but not!
Last edited by Planobilly; 03/11/23 02:27 PM.
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I still don't know what you mean by "sound like a live band starting off a song". You want some players starting early and other players starting late, not all on the downbeat? Or do you mean drums laying out for 8 bars, piano and bass only on an intro, etc? For that part, geeze, you can delete bars, insert bars, generate extra parts to see if they are better than what was generated on the first pass... I mean, you are the producer here. Produce your music your way. Only you know what you want it to sound like. And you have the best music generating software in the world to do it with.
If you mean all tracks starting accurately on the downbeat, that's kind of why you count a song in, right?
If my players don't come in on the downbeat at rehearsal, I make them start the song over. If they do it on a gig, they are looking for a job afterward.
I actually had a singer once tell me he didn't know what "downbeat" meant. I told him that we needed people at a higher level of music knowledge and told him he was fired. How can you play music and not know what the downbeat is? That's like going to KFC and not knowing what they have on the menu. They have chicken. Even if you look at the other menu board, they still have chicken. How can you grow up, finish school, get a job, have children... and still not know what KFC has on the menu?? My god! I want 3 thighs, a side of mac and cheese, slaw and a biscuit. Get out outta the line!!
//John Pinette rant over (Funniest comedian ever. I miss him.)
Last edited by eddie1261; 03/11/23 04:20 PM.
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It’s always fun answering a question before we know what the question means. We can go anywhere.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Who here is old enough to remember Professor Irwin Corey? He would walk out on stage and launch into his bit with "As I was saying" and for many minutes ranted about absolutely nothing. That's where I learned it!!
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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And there is always my favorite opening from Conway Twitty: Hello, Darlin'
Easy as it gets.
...Deb
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"...to make it sound like a live band starting off a song."
I'm afraid many bands start in & on time, particularly if someone counts them in.
There're lots of suggestions of how to make an interesting beginning/intro but few address you question.
The quickest way to get a "live" sense is to allow the drum count in bar to play before the band chimes in or record yourself calling along with those clicks ONE TWO one two three four.
That's what most bands do live.
If you work in a DAW it's no big thing to slice and slide a couple of things around so that one may start a tiny bit early and another a little late for the 1st bar or so if that's what you want to hear but, honestly, most decent bands, amateur or otherwise, either have a count in or they have someone play an intro part for them to cling to.
Last edited by rayc; 03/12/23 12:18 AM.
Cheers
rayc
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I was sitting back listening to what I've done and started to wondering if anyone has tips or tricks to make it sound like a live band starting off a song. They never just come in at exactly the same time. You could include the count-in and add some finger squeaks, maybe even a touch of feedback. And a breath.
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I was sitting back listening to what I've done and started to wondering if anyone has tips or tricks to make it sound like a live band starting off a song. They never just come in at exactly the same time. You could include the count-in and add some finger squeaks, maybe even a touch of feedback. And a breath. Plus you could include some crowd noise.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Love it.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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A nifty trick I've used a couple of times is copying the 1st note played by a guitar, dropping it right in front of the original & reversing that "sample"/"item"/"section" - most DAWS can do it...it gives the impression of a bit of feedback as the volume knob is rolled.
Last edited by rayc; 03/12/23 11:12 PM.
Cheers
rayc
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We often prefer a few "pickup" notes before everybody hits the "one." In my bluegrass days we always did that as we did not have a drummer. And we will still do the same on occasion as IMO that's the way many songs of varying genres are introduced. Sometimes several regens will create a solo RT note that comes in early. If not we just find something we like in the track that works and comp it in. FWIW.
Bud
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I find it slightly funny that some of our band members feel that a spoken count-in sounds somehow unprofessional, so they count-in quietly.
That usually works OK, but very occasionally they're front of stage and count too quietly for the rhythm section to hear them.
Personally I think the audience probably couldn't care less about a count-in, but of course I may be wrong.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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The OP has not replied as yet and I still don't know if he WANTS the band to start exactly together does DOESN'T want the band to start exactly together. In my ears I can't imagine a band not hitting the pickup in perfect sync. An intro or drum pickup at the start is one thing, but the players have to hit the one as one. (See what I did there?)
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Sorry for not getting back to you sooner guys. Life hasn't allowed me to spend a lot of time to spend on the forums or making music. I have been able to scan the forum while having my coffee but not enough time to post. I should be able to get back this afternoon.
Bobby
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Well, as I see it, you have a few options.
1. Everybody in on ONE. Yes, good musicians can and do start at the same time on the 1. That's kind of the default way to do it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of start. There might be a couple of milliseconds difference in the actual hit on one, but not enough for anyone to notice.
2. Pick up notes. You hear this all the time too. In country..."and a 4 and" is an accepted way to kick off a song. The pick up can be the fiddles, steel, guitar, drums, and quite often, all of them combined.
3. Partial start.... this can be on the one or a pickup start but it generally only includes the drums, or the guitars..... again this instrumentation lineup varies from song to song.... the rest of the band waits until the end of the verse, or some other strategically located musical mile marker to enter.
4. Vocal start.... with the instruments coming in at some point AFTER the vocal sings a line. (See Alan Jackson Pop A Top*) *actually used a pickup followed by the vox... then the band.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I find it slightly funny that some of our band members feel that a spoken count-in sounds somehow unprofessional, so they count-in quietly.
That usually works OK, but very occasionally they're front of stage and count too quietly for the rhythm section to hear them.
Personally I think the audience probably couldn't care less about a count-in, but of course I may be wrong. Yep.... In every band I ever played in, there was always....well almost always an audible count in and very often accompanied by the drummer smacking his sticks together. One Two, One Two Three Four... Not one single time, I mean not ever, did anyone in the bar/club, ever say anything about the count in and that counting out loud was amateurish. Big bands and orchestras have conductors who generally count in silently, but again, they often "mouth" the words and they have a baton they use to indicate the count. The only songs that weren't counted were the ones that had a unique and often one chord intro.... such as Lukenbach Texas, and a few other ones of similar ilk.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Even on Lukenbach Texas Waylon sings "Let's go to" that serves as a pickup on the "+ 4 +" at the end of that half spoken intro. Everything has a countdown. Whether it's click track or spoken, there's a countdown. It's done in studios but not on a track that is recorded. I have seen big band shows where the band leader gives 4 whole measures of countdown. When I played in swing band shows in college we got a double countoff. Try to play One O'Clock Jump without a good handle on the tempo. LOL!
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Well, as I see it, you have a few options.
1. Everybody in on ONE. Yes, good musicians can and do start at the same time on the 1. That's kind of the default way to do it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of start. There might be a couple of milliseconds difference in the actual hit on one, but not enough for anyone to notice.
2. Pick up notes. You hear this all the time too. In country..."and a 4 and" is an accepted way to kick off a song. The pick up can be the fiddles, steel, guitar, drums, and quite often, all of them combined. Yes... this is what I'm referring to. Especially the "couple of milliseconds difference" part. This is, and it's only my opinion, why a live band has a looser sound or feel than a machine band which is usually tightly quantized. I'm not saying that it makes any difference to the human ear per se... I think that it just makes for a looser sound all around. I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't mean that the band is terrible because they're all out of time. I just think it's a "human" thing. Humans can't quantize quite as tight as how a computer can. But as you say, we're talking milliseconds. Nobody in the bar is going to tell you that the band is no good because of this, just because they can't hear it. Neither can the band members. And of course, 99% of the time there are count ins and most always there are pickup notes that kick off the song. I like your reference to country music. Classic country and old rock and roll paid my bills for a LOT of years. Like a lot of people here, once I have the main framework of my song done in biab it is promptly dropped into my daw and I go from there. A lot of the time I end up using just the bass and drums but there are also times where I may like the rhythm guitars or piano or background peddle steel. It is in my daw where the pickup notes are inserted and that takes the "every instrument starting at the exact same time" syndrome out of play. Especially when those pickup notes aren't quantized. Same goes for the middle solo and ending. I really didn't mean for my post to sound like it was a problem I was having with this. It just kind of struck me as I was sitting back listening to my song play in biab. It was just a muse. But the post sure has started some great conversation. I love this place!!! Bobby
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That’s good we now know better what the situation is. What is your reaction to my observation that the guitar intentionally comes in early in the jazz styles? In other words, BIAB clearly does not need to have all instruments start together.
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There are several timing things that can go on, particularly with live music.
It's pretty common to use a pick-up into a chorus, swing and syncopation, ahead of the beat to give drive, behind the beat to give a more relaxed feel and that looseness bobby writes about that gives a natural feel to things.
For me personally, dead on the beat sounds robotic.
But there also has to be a consistency within the band. We need the beat timing even if we're going to play fast and loose with it.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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I think this may have been better stated by saying every PART starting at the same time than every NOTE. I am a stickler for timing and tuning and won't have those 2 things any way but perfect.
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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Jan 19th, 2020
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