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I’ve been working on an EP the past year and have 5 songs I feel are solid and ready to be recorded, and then released under my own artist name (will be my first release).
I’ve only composed it with voice and guitar, production is my weak point, so my plan is to record them as solid demos with just guitar and vocals and show them to a few producers near me.
I’d probably show it to about 4-5 producers, I don’t really know them, just people near me, or ones that have been recommended through acquaintances, etc.
Just wondering how many on here register their songs before showing them to producers or shopping them around to artists / etc.
(I've read it's also much better to copyright songs individually, vs as a group, as it's much more beneficial in case it does every become a legal issue.
I also think I have to copyright them again, once I'll do the official release? Or is that not the case, if the lyrics/melody haven't really changed?)
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Howdy question asker. I am by no means an expert. The safest way to go is to copywrite them first. That being said it isn't always a necessity. I know a guy in Nashville who has his own publishing company that I occasionally run a song by. I don't bother copywriting them first, but he's been a friend of the family for years. There are a lot of crooks out there. It's not a good way to do business, but some do. It's a gamble if you don't copywrite it first. It's not always just the publisher you have to worry about. If they should ever play it to someone else for an opinion it runs a risk of being ripped off by that person as well. My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. I wrote a theme song for a TV show years ago that never took off. The show had an in-house band, and I knew the guys. The song was copywritten along with the show, so I never had to worry about it - plus it never made any money. Anyway that's the limit of my experience, so as I said, I'm not an expert - just my two cents. Good luck with your songs,
Brad
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Personally, I don't. No one out there is trying to steal your songs.... heck it's nearly impossible to get folks to listen to them.
If you are going to release them on a commercial project, yes. You should copyright them. Plugging them to publishers, nope. The publisher is not going to steal your song if you're dealing with legit publishers and you should know who you're dealing with in that regard. They will copyright the song in their name if they are interested in representing your song to artists and other commercial projects. You simply have a writers contract with the publisher.
Hope that helps.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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A very odd position and question for a BIAB forum.
Clearly using BIAB would, in all likelihood, take your voice & guitar demos up a level that wouldn't require "production" nous per se.
Establishing copyright at the earliest instance is common sense.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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See: Music Lawyerin This hole gets deep real fast. You may want to see if there is a music lawyer in your town. They'll explain it all to you for $200 and your eyes will glaze over.
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LegalEagle's video about music law and Taylor Swift's story are interesting. Lawyers also cost, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-A_RrOeoWw
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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… I am by no means an expert. … I am and run a small consulting concern on Copyright and Music Licensing. I'll spare you my resumé other than I worked on the 1976 revision to Title 17 (effective 1/1/1978) and recently retired from ASCAP where I was attached to the Legal Dept. Standard disclaimer: I am not an attorney nor do I practice law. Everything I write can (and should) be looked up. If you need an attorney, get one (I can hook you up, BTW. My opinions are my own and I am not responsible for anything you do or don't. The song was copywritten… The word is COPYRIGHTED. You are protecting your rights concerning copies of your work. "Copywritten" is what happens with advertising and news text (copy). Although much of the following is also true in the 140+ countries that are signatories to the Berne Convention, some are unique to the USA and I will not point out the differences—you are on your own if not a US resident. Terms: LOC is the Library of Congress, United States Copyright Office. SCOTUS is the Supreme Court of the United States. Title 17 is the US Copyright Law. Section 8 is Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution requiring Congress to protect Copyrights and Patents. In this context, Work is any intellectual property subject to Copyright protection. Mechanical royalties are paid for copies sold. Performance royalties are for broadcast, streaming etc. Helicopter view: All Works fall into one of two categories: Published and Unpublished. With one exception, Published and Unpublished Works are afforded different rights—this is important to know and almost no one gets this right online. Unpublished Works have two sets of rights: You can take action against plagiarism and you have the Right to the First Recording. Although you are protected from the date of creation and you are not required to register them, the problem is proving Authorship and Date of Creation. You can register up to 10 Works (not 20!) with the LOC on a Form PA or SR as Unpublished. There are 3rd party entities that let you do the same for a lower fee. You cannot protect your rights by mailing anything to yourself, aka the Poor Man's Copyright. It must be a 3rd party with no interest in the work and there are many out there—Google is your friend. The Right to the First Recording is often overlooked. The second you make a work available to the Public, a song is Published ( Public is the root of Published) and you lose this right—this includes posting to Facebook, Youtube. Soundcloud etc. unless your chanel is Private. Established songwriters can and do charge for that first recording if they can and, if that first artist never releases, they can charge someone else and so on. Songwriter Demos are not considered First Recording unless a rights holder posts it or includes it on a CD sold at a gig etc. Anyway, once a First Recording is released or otherwise Published, that right is gone. Published Works must be registered as Published with the LOC or all protections are lost—meaning that you have no right to be paid until that happens. If someone covers your song and doesn't pay your Mechanicals, if not registered as Published, you have no right to take action (sue in Federal Court). Filing a song as Published after release is often done but no mechanicals or damages are due before the Processing Date. A few years ago, SCOTUS finally settled the matter on which date applies, time stamp when received or date processed. I know of one horror story where a songwriter lost an estimated $18M because her publisher did not file the correct Form PA Published till 20 years after it was first recorded (a story for later). Normally, Published Works are registered one at a time but as of March, 2021, it is now possible to register up to 20 Published works released at the same time on one album on a single form. Google Register Certain Groups of Published Works for details and restrictions on the two ways this is allowed.
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Bottom line and answering the OP: Many in the industry will not accept an unpublished Work (Songwriter demo, script, screenplay etc.) with any kind of Copyright notice on it. It is considered amateurish at best and a possible setup for a lawsuit at worst. Since copyright notices are not required, even if registered, don't make that mistake. If concerned about being ripped off i. e. someone claiming your Work as his/her own, then register it with someone. The LOC accepts up to 10 on a Form PA or SR with PA box checked (do not check the box for Published). Again, there are 3rd party companies that do this and, if you're a prolific songwriter, you'll save a lot of money. The Writers Guild has been registering scripts for over 95 years. They don't so songs but, if you want to see how 3rd party protection works, their web site is most informative. WGA West Registry
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Is "QuestionAsker" a real person asking a real question or is "QuestionAsker" a one time forum visiter, never to post again? Will "QuestionAsker" even visit the forum to read the responses to the question?
Only time can answer these questions.
Not mocking the answers but more wondering about "QuestionAsker". I'm kinda' in RayC's corner on this one and think it's one and done.
All good answers but sort of a weird first question to ask in this forum.
If I'm wrong I will be pleasantly surprised.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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There are a few who change user names now and then so, who knows?
In any case, I answered all the questions raised in the OP but, unless there is follow up, I’m done here.
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Copyright is all about one thing.
It provides an official date of creation and who created it.
That said, the library of Congress is the registration that a court requires to bring a lawsuit.
With the internet and computers, everything posted online has data tagged to it that shows date of creation of that file. In addition to this, there are several companies that are providing a service that dates the files on secured servers. One such is the software company MasterWriter. It's a lyric writing package which includes a registration service.
One of the publishing companies I have dealt with that placed my music in films and TV, and yes, I got performance royalty checks for that from BMI, told me to not worry about copyright. They were handling that. And they did. For that reason, and others, I don't worry about the copyright for my music.
Yep.... I realize that this might ruffle the feathers of some in this business, but you are also free to do this any way that allows you to sleep restfully at night.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Copyright is all about one thing.
It provides an official date of creation and who created it. You are absolutely wrong. Article 1 Section 8: The Congress shall have Power…
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
That said, the library of Congress is the registration that a court requires to bring a lawsuit.
Half wrong. Published works only. With the internet and computers, everything posted online has data tagged to it that shows date of creation of that file. So what? The Federal Court System has yet to accept this. Search BMI in Justia.com. In addition to this, there are several companies that are providing a service that dates the files on secured servers. One such is the software company MasterWriter. It's a lyric writing package which includes a registration service. Barry DeVorzon's service is one of many out there. Unpublished works only. One of the publishing companies I have dealt with that placed my music in films and TV, and yes, I got performance royalty checks for that from BMI, told me to not worry about copyright. They were handling that. And they did. For that reason, and others, I don't worry about the copyright for my music. With Unpublished works, it's ok not to be worried. There's no requirement to register and, if you get ripped off, that's your concern alone. That the PROs might pay performance royalties without a Form PA Published is not a secret and how they handle this is their affair (the Consent Decree does not require this). However, they cannot initiate a suit on your behalf if your rights are violated without it—and only if the performance occurs after the registration date on the certificate. Again, not knowing this has cost some writers millions of dollars. While you might get paid—always a good thing—the fact is that you do not have the right to be paid without the correct registration. Red flag here: Is an experienced songwriter really implying that your publishers don't file the correct Copyright forms on your music? It is the publisher's obligation to do so and your lack of knowledge on this subject (real or pretend) is appalling. Yep.... I realize that this might ruffle the feathers of some in this business, but you are also free to do this any way that allows you to sleep restfully at night. As long as those reading know that you are giving some bad advice, how can feathers get ruffled?
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You are absolutely wrong....Half wrong.....So what? ......
Red flag here: Is an experienced songwriter really implying that your publishers don't file the correct Copyright forms on your music? It is the publisher's obligation to do so and your lack of knowledge on this subject (real or pretend) is appalling.
As long as those reading know that you are giving some bad advice, how can feathers get ruffled?
Aren't you the little ray of sunshine today. Take a deep breath.... exhale....relax.... If you read my post again, this time more carefully...you will notice that I never claimed that my publishers failed to file the proper paperwork. In fact I believe I said the exact opposite. Something about the publisher handling it....and they did. Peace brother
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Howdy question asker. I am by no means an expert. The safest way to go is to copywrite them first. That being said it isn't always a necessity. I know a guy in Nashville who has his own publishing company that I occasionally run a song by. I don't bother copywriting them first, but he's been a friend of the family for years. There are a lot of crooks out there. It's not a good way to do business, but some do. It's a gamble if you don't copywrite it first. It's not always just the publisher you have to worry about. If they should ever play it to someone else for an opinion it runs a risk of being ripped off by that person as well. My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. I wrote a theme song for a TV show years ago that never took off. The show had an in-house band, and I knew the guys. The song was copywritten along with the show, so I never had to worry about it - plus it never made any money. Anyway that's the limit of my experience, so as I said, I'm not an expert - just my two cents. Good luck with your songs,
Brad Thanks Brad for the feedback. Just curious, what was the story with your dads song being stolen? How did it happen, and did he see any reimbursement for it?
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Unpublished Works have two sets of rights: You can take action against plagiarism and you have the Right to the First Recording. Although you are protected from the date of creation and you are not required to register them, the problem is proving Authorship and Date of Creation. You can register up to 10 Works (not 20!) with the LOC on a Form PA or SR as Unpublished. There are 3rd party entities that let you do the same for a lower fee. You cannot protect your rights by mailing anything to yourself, aka the Poor Man's Copyright. It must be a 3rd party with no interest in the work and there are many out there—Google is your friend.
Thank you Mike, I really appreciate you sharing your expertise on the subject, very informative. I have a few follow up questions, if that's OK: 1. I've heard a few music industry people (including a lawyer) state that you should copyright each song individually, for various reasons, including: - Easier to manage the song, for licensing, etc. If it's within a catalog of 10 songs, if you want to license / sell that song, you have to sell / license the whole catalog. (I might be wrong on this, but this is what I understood from that conversation). - If someone does plagiarize the song, the judge looks at the plagiarized snippet compared to the whole registered body of work. If it's a melody line, and only 1 song is registered, it's can be a large portion of the plagiarized work. However if that melody line is compared to the whole body of 10 songs, it could be considered a small part, and warrant a much smaller compensation for plagiarism, or be thrown out, etc. (Once again this is what I heard, I know I might be wrong). Is this true, in your experience? I'd much rather register in groups of 10, to save money, but this is what I have been told (ie register each song copyright individually). 2. I remember reading that with registering an unpublished copyright, one has 3 months from the date of registration to publish the work, otherwise they lose some sort of protection? Is that true?
The Right to the First Recording is often overlooked. The second you make a work available to the Public, a song is Published (Public is the root of Published) and you lose this right—this includes posting to Facebook, Youtube. Soundcloud etc. unless your chanel is Private. Established songwriters can and do charge for that first recording if they can and, if that first artist never releases, they can charge someone else and so on. Songwriter Demos are not considered First Recording unless a rights holder posts it or includes it on a CD sold at a gig etc. Anyway, once a First Recording is released or otherwise Published, that right is gone.
Many in the industry will not accept an unpublished Work (Songwriter demo, script, screenplay etc.) with any kind of Copyright notice on it. It is considered amateurish at best and a possible setup for a lawsuit at worst. Since copyright notices are not required, even if registered, don't make that mistake.
3. Another thing I'm confused about is this - so if pitching a song to a producer or publisher (with the intent of having another artist using it), it should not be copyrighted in any way, not even as an unpublished work? How does the Right to First Recording tie into that situation?
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QuestionAsker,
Welcome back to the forum. I'm glad to see you've returned. I apologize for thinking you did not have a legitimate interest in the forum.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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........ My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. ...... Thanks Brad for the feedback. Just curious, what was the story with your dads song being stolen? How did it happen, and did he see any reimbursement for it? I worked with another writer many years ago. I was just getting started at the time. He was the founder of a songwriters group in the town I was in at the time. He claimed that he had written the lyric and melody to a very big #1 song and had submitted it to a publisher/record company and heard nothing back. Then one day he heard it on the radio and watched it go to #1 and make a ton of money. This was well before the internet and computers. Rotary phones were still a thing. I'm not so sure that his story was true, but of course the back story fit the situation well. His wife would kind of roll her eyes when he told this story to someone new. It's possible because at the time, there was only LOC copyright to prove ownership and date of creation. I still have all of the copyright forms for the songs I was writing back then. Many were collections. I should pull those out and see if there was anything actually worth spending the money on back then. My story....a coincidence I'm sure...... I have a gospel song that I had written and recorded. One day I was listening to the local gospel radio station and heard a song that was eerily close to the song I had written. I wrote it off as a coincidence because at the time, I wasn't posting on line... internet was at best dial up to bulletin boards and I hadn't sent the song out to anyone. That was a strange one. There was no way anyone else could have heard my song and ripped it off.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/18/23 04:20 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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QuestionAsker,
Welcome back to the forum. I'm glad to see you've returned. I apologize for thinking you did not have a legitimate interest in the forum. Greetings Jim, no worries, thank you for having me 
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I worked with another writer many years ago. I was just getting started at the time. He was the founder of a songwriters group in the town I was in at the time. He claimed that he had written the lyric and melody to a very big #1 song and had submitted it to a publisher/record company and heard nothing back. Then one day he heard it on the radio and watched it go to #1 and make a ton of money. This was well before the internet and computers. Rotary phones were still a thing. I'm not so sure that his story was true, but of course the back story fit the situation well. His wife would kind of roll her eyes when he told this story to someone new.
That would really suck if it did indeed get stolen, I hope it wasn't the case.
My story....a coincidence I'm sure...... I have a gospel song that I had written and recorded. One day I was listening to the local gospel radio station and heard a song that was eerily close to the song I had written. I wrote it off as a coincidence because at the time, I wasn't posting on line... internet was at best dial up to bulletin boards and I hadn't sent the song out to anyone. That was a strange one. There was no way anyone else could have heard my song and ripped it off.
There's a phenomenon that seems to pass in many areas, I hear of inventions being invented often independently in various parts of the world, even before the internet or phones, or when being worked on in secret. Or an idea or philosophy that surfaces at the same time, in various areas. Maybe it could have been something like that. But with a song, to copy a melody like that, does sound odd to me though.
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Just to be pedantic:
In the US, at least, copyright is automatic upon a work being created.
The issue is of proving that one indeed holds ownership. That is where registering your copyright comes in. It is rather difficult to argue with an official government document, the falsification of which potentially carries a charge of perjury.
There are other services that claim to do this but none have yet been tried in court to my knowledge. Neither has the purported "poor man's copyright" of mailing a copy to yourself.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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