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Hello all!
What exactly does BIAB consider to be a CHORUS?
I'm guessing (based on making my first 18-20 songs now) that BAIB defines a chorus as once through a given set of chord changes & not necessarily the "chorus" as opposed to the "verse" or "bridge" of a song.
MacBook Pro M3 Max Sonoma 14.1.2, BIAB Audiophile Edition 2023, Logic ProX 10.8.1, Focusrite 8PreX Interface.
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You've very close.
BIAB was developed as a way to hear songs from jazz fakebooks. We jazz players think of chorus as once through the tune. So, a chorus might be AABA form. You've probably heard a jazz player say "take a chorus" which means, take a solo over the tune.
There are a lot of folks who don't think that way, so over the decades a few things have been added to make it easier if not exactly direct. Things like the conductor, song form selecting sections, the ability to name a section. I'm sure others are more qualified to give more examples and instructions (the jazz definition works for me).
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Ok Thanks Matt. Your answer is along the lines of what I was thinking.
where it came up for me was that in trying to use certain features I was getting a message something like "not available for songs with only one chorus" even though I have the full form of the song repeated several times BIAB obviously was seeing then entire song as a single chorus.
MacBook Pro M3 Max Sonoma 14.1.2, BIAB Audiophile Edition 2023, Logic ProX 10.8.1, Focusrite 8PreX Interface.
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That message appears when the rightmost number (number of choruses) is 1.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Yeah... while I retain my usage of the part names verse and chorus as well as bridge, BB doesn't use that nomenclature. Everything is a chorus to BB.
I just let it believe what it wants to believe and go about my merry way doing things the way I have always done.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Yes, but there are some adaptations you can make in BIAB. You don’t have to adopt the jazz definition.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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OK thanks to everyone for the help.
MacBook Pro M3 Max Sonoma 14.1.2, BIAB Audiophile Edition 2023, Logic ProX 10.8.1, Focusrite 8PreX Interface.
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Is it insane I'm watching this 8 years after the fact on a Friday
hussam
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Something fairly significant has been overlooked in this discussion.
No matter what jazz players might use as their vocabulary, most common songs have verses and choruses, per se, meaning that the chorus is different in dynamics than the verse or the bridge, often more busy or more energetic.
Thus if you do a part marker on something that you want to be a chorus then you would make that part marker green by clicking it once so that band in a box knows that it's a chorus and will use the chorus style of the particular style or tracks that you're using.
Those tracks will then become a little bit more energetic with more fills and more drive and that kind of thing so that everyone knows oh yeah we're in the chorus.
I agree it is kind of confusing that they would use the jazz nomenclature on "full song" repeats but I guess it's just shorthand for number of repeats or times through for most people.
I never use those "full song form" repeats as I use the song form feature to lay out the song in its entirety.
However it is important to remember that if you're writing a standard song you usually want your choruses to have a green part marker with most styles so that they actually sound like choruses.
Of course you can choose any number of different part markers and assign different styles to those but for the most part blue means verse or bridge and green means chorus.
This would be an important distinction for anyone who is learning Band in a Box for the first time.
I know this is important because I have helped people set up band in a box who are newbies and when they sent me their SGU files I noticed that the entire song was using blue part markers.
So I suspect that it's something people need to be alerted to if they've just purchased the product.
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No matter what jazz players might use as their vocabulary, most common songs have verses and choruses, per se, meaning that the chorus is different in dynamics than the verse or the bridge, often more busy or more energetic. ... though it probably is the root of much confusion as BIAB makes a kind of hybrid interpretation. I guess most here will know the following, but if it helps anyone... Although it isn't by any means a rule, a jazz song usually has a core form, often 32 measures where each of four groups of eight measures have an nominal identifier ... that AABA that Matt mentioned, though there are also other forms, of course. Sometimes there's an intro/"verse" and sometimes a tag/coda/outro. In the AABA, that B section is usually know as the "middle eight" and is often the more energetic style as David describes. The usual way a song is [Intro] AABA with the written melody, probably multiple AABAs each with an solo, a final AABA with the written melody then the tag/coda/outro. That all differs a bit from a conventional non-jazz structure, which usually has some mix of intro verses, choruses, bridge, pre-somethings. The typically simpler for of a jazz song helps with keeping track of where we are in a song whilst various people are doing solos which may vary significantly from the original melody. I really must try again with that "song form" feature.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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for my songs to avoid confusion i just set chorus to one.
then i use layers or bar lettering plus a number eg...
I for intro
V for verse
C for chorus
L for lead
K for key change
O for outtro
etc etc
So verse 3 would be V3 ...second lead break L2 sort of idea
just build your own nomenclature in layers option.
works for me.
frankly without upsetting jazzers and have then jump all over me i think its time to reassess the use of the chorus term as it often confuses new users who think in terms of intro verse chorus lead break bridge outtro whatever. i know it confused me years ago ...when i started with bb.
so i worked out my own nomenclature for different parts of a song.
now that we have the fab new bb tracks view i feel a special track called song sections should be made under the time ruler where people enter names for different song sections eg...verse one or chorus 3 or whatever. see my wishlists sometime to save retyping....where i mention other unique tracks be added to bb like tempo and special drum tracks etc and lyrics track etc ...
ps i dont like how rb does markers cos of time involved in the markers dialog.
with a song sections or markers unique track under the time line...just type in directly on the track intro or verse or chorus wnatever.
happiness.
om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 04/20/24 07:44 PM.
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frankly without upsetting jazzers and have then jump all over me i think its time to reassess the use of the chorus term as it often confuses new users who think in terms of intro verse chorus lead break bridge outtro whatever. i know it confused me years ago ...when i started with bb. As a jazzer, personally I agree. I think the term "chorus" as jazz people use it is different from most other peoples and, yes, causes confusion. But I'm not sure what other term one would use. Suggestions? "Song" doesn't seem right because the Intro & outro are part of the song. "Song body"? A bit clumsy. "Body"? Maybe.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Gordon.
thats the reason i suggested a freeform special section names track under timeline like one long layer a muso types directly into.
eg fab take five...
..drum intro 4 bars
..piano 4 bars
..sax 8 bars
..sax freeform scat xx bars..
..piano scat xx bars
..staccato piano xx bars
..drum solo xx bars
..return to sax theme xx bars...
etc etc
just an idea for a freeform adaptable special track that caters to all music genres and needs.
happiness.
om
ps.. im watching an old you tube black n white extended version vid of t5...
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 04/21/24 06:47 AM.
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Gordon.
thats the reason i suggested a freeform special section names track under timeline like one long layer a muso types directly into.
eg fab take five...
..drum intro 4 bars
..piano 4 bars
..sax 8 bars
..sax freeform scat xx bars..
..piano scat xx bars
..staccato piano xx bars
..drum solo xx bars
..return to sax theme xx bars...
etc etc
just an idea for a freeform adaptable special track that caters to all music genres and needs.
happiness.
om
ps.. im watching an old you tube black n white extended version vid of t5... I'm perfectly happy with your suggestion and method of doing things, but it doesn't cover the common jazz setup of intro, x-times through the chorus/body, outro, which is what the "choruses x N" covers. Jazz people really rather want that x N.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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gordon.
just keep the x N option for jazzers....and freeform sections track under timeline would reflect that....?
question ...from some friends of mine in the past who were jazzers there are often slight variations in different choruses so the sections track could reflect this ?
eg in chorus 3 the piano diverts from the usual or the commercial version eg the blacknwhite vid and thus the sections track the music director or song creator could enter 'piano scat ' ?
thus gordon the sections track could also be used for production notes ?
i use layers currently for this as in 'silent piano for 8 bars note to myself to remind me when laying out a song...ie the sections track is an expansion
of the layers concept ?
just an idea.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 04/22/24 04:14 AM.
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Something fairly significant has been overlooked in this discussion... Everything I would have said was said by David in this post. I picked up BiaB MANY years ago because of the jazz facility, but it's time to adapt old conventions to popular music. No offense intended.
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Something fairly significant has been overlooked in this discussion... Everything I would have said was said by David in this post. I picked up BiaB MANY years ago because of the jazz facility, but it's time to adapt old conventions to popular music. No offense intended. None taken by me, at least. The "problem" is simply the two different interpretations of the word "chorus". Perhaps we need a different word, probably for we jazzers. I doubt it'll stop us using the word chorus, but we're already very familiar with the two meanings, so I personally can't see an issue, just a need for a suitable term. YMMV.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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................................................
The "problem" is simply the two different interpretations of the word "chorus".
Perhaps we need a different word, probably for we jazzers. I doubt it'll stop us using the word chorus, but we're already very familiar with the two meanings, so I personally can't see an issue, just a need for a suitable term. YMMV. We don't need a different word IMHO. I believe all musicians can learn the different between the two definitions of the word chorus. After all in the English language there are many confusing terms, like to, too, and two, their and there, who and whom (the hardest one) etc. YMMV
Yeah, I've got O.C.D, Old, Cranky, and Dangerous.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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We don't need a different word IMHO. I believe all musicians can learn the different between the two definitions of the word chorus. After all in the English language there are many confusing terms, like to, too, and two, their and there, who and whom (the hardest one) etc. YMMV My initial post on this thread was simply trying to explain in more detail how the jazz use of "chorus" in a song structure differs from most other uses of "chorus" in a song structure. I then seem to have allowed myself to be dragged into a discussion of pros, cons and alternatives. There are also other uses of the word.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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We don't need a different word IMHO. I believe all musicians can learn the different between the two definitions of the word chorus. After all in the English language there are many confusing terms, like to, too, and two, their and there, who and whom (the hardest one) etc. YMMV My initial post on this thread was simply trying to explain in more detail how the jazz use of "chorus" in a song structure differs from most other uses of "chorus" in a song structure. I then seem to have allowed myself to be dragged into a discussion of pros, cons and alternatives. There are also other uses of the word. I feel your pain as I have been dragged into conversations where I should have just kept my big mouth shut! I do know that they only definition of the word chorus that matters is that a chorus is a group of people singing together. Wait, or is that a choir? Now my head hurts 
Yeah, I've got O.C.D, Old, Cranky, and Dangerous.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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If you don't understand how PG Music defines "Chorus" ask the question in the forum. Once the question is answered, you'll know.
It's like multiple things and ways of doing things in Band-in-a-Box, RealBand or PowerTracks Pro, once you understand you can adapt.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1113) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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BB has more than a few ideas all it's own. It calls things in what could be considered by some to be non standard terms. Questions have to be ask for some one new to figure it out. BB will never be construed as intuitive, but when in Rome...
At some point I guess everyone just understands "it is what it is". Confusing yes, perplexing yes, bewildering perhaps. It is a very useful piece of software that takes a bit of time to understand and even longer to find the many many ways it can be used.
We should have been prepaired for this, we were told...
"There's a sign on the wall, but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings
Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, makes me wonder"
Cheers M8
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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