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Suddenly I feel so..... what's the word?????

Useless?


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Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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dcuny Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Uwe Schwarz
@dcuny
Ready for the next step?
Try udio.com. This should soon offer stems download and is currently beta. It's stereo.
Yeah, it appears to be the "next big thing" in AI music. And unlike Suno, it appears that Udio is actually licensing their material.

However, AI generated material still can't be copyrighted.

But while I find AI generated music interesting, I'm not really interested in using AI generated music because it does all the parts of the music that I consider to be what makes it my own.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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Originally Posted by musiclover
...now if somehow we could get something like that to work within biab.

Although not within Band-in-a-Box, in this video Bob Doyle Media shows how Suno can be used as a great starting point, especially when you pair it with Band-in-a-Box!


-Callie

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Suno, or any other Ai, and BiaB are just tools and you can choose to use them or not.


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It is easy to become fearful and irritated by new ways of doing things. I think the older we get the more change becomes uncomfortable.

There is good reason to fear some techonology, atomic weapons come to mind. AI has some issues. Can AI kill off all the humans? Perhaps. Is that a big deal or any great loss? Likely not. We are most likely much less important than we would like to believe.

We will be able to play and create music fora long time into the future. We will also find it harder to monatize and collect on those efforts as time goes by. AI will play and create music and at some point will be most likely be indistinguishable from human made music.

Many of us have concerns about ethical issues but I fear we are in the minority.

Good, bad, right, wrong and ethical issues tend to disapear as distance from shore increases...lol

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Cheers

Billy

Last edited by Planobilly; 04/23/24 05:02 PM.

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Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that. It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used. In some cases it is quite spectacular. It still has hallucinations, gives you nonsense lyrics when you have checked the instrumental toggle for instance. But over all very impressive. I like it to many of us who learned how to play our instruments by learning from the people we studied or looked up to etc. I learned to play guitar copying Chet Atkins records, note for note. Now I can create something completely mine but I did it by learning what he did.
So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new. It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well. You ask for a blues instrumental in slide guitar and it pretty much nails it.

Last edited by etcjoe; 07/10/24 09:46 AM. Reason: Fix some spelling.

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Originally Posted by etcjoe
Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that.
In some cases, it is "regurgitating other's music" - or at least portions of other people's copyright material.

For example, it's been shown to generate producer's tags - basically audio signatures placed at the start of tracks.

Quote
It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used.
Those "qualifiers" are how it categorizes elements of the songs that it's learned. Using the right qualifiers, it's possible to make Suno create output that is quite similar to copyright materials.

Given that Suno is able to generate copyright-infringing output, it's clear that no "supposedly" is needed. Sunu is being trained on copyrighted material for which they have no license to use.

AI companies attempt to stop this by preventing users from using certain descriptors, but with some clever prompt engineering people have been able to get around that restriction.

Quote
So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new.
Yes and no.

It's not "combining" in the sense that it takes the first few seconds from one song, and then a couple more seconds from another song.

But it is combining in the sense that it's learning songs, and then creating output by morphing elements of those learned songs.

It's certainly more sophisticated that cutting and pasting between songs. But without having learned those songs - and stored them in its neural network - it would be unable to create new songs.

Quote
It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well.
I'm not sure what "using programming" means, but it doesn't really generate a song "from scratch". It generates a song by morphing together learned elements of songs from the training set. It just happens to have a huge amount of songs to draw from, so it's often difficult to see where it's come from.

But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all.

My wife, daughter and I were listening to a choral festival this afternoon. My kid was in the concert hall (one of her works was on the program) while we were streaming it at home in California.

A piece came on and it was clear that the “composer” had asked an AI bot for something in the style of Sibelius. The words made no sense at all but the music was way, way too close to Finlandia for comfort. As we were discussing this at home, the signature chord change occurred and my daughter texted, “Turn left at Helsinki”. That text was easily the highlight of the piece.

Sibelius is still under copyright in many countries for another three years. Finlandia is in the PD in the US, however, so there’s nothing that anyone would do on that score. The blatant sound-alike was cringeworthy per my daughter’s post concert report and my wife and I thought the same thing. A new arrangement using the tune with decent lyrics would have been preferable—what we heard was embarrassing.


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Whatever about the legalities involved, we can let the lawyers sort that one out, Ai music making is sure as hell entertaining and will only get better.

You can probably tell I am a big fan!

smile


Musiclover

My music https://www.youtube.com/user/donegalprideofall

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Billy,
well said!

This all reminds me of the Sony's pitch of their Aibo robo doggie in 90s. "Just like a real dog..."
I prefer music (for the most part) that is made by humans, not a parody - even a very realistic one. A taste thing.
Curiosity - sure it's a fun technology. A tool - likely useful, if you are not substituting a skill that you already have.

If you have a $100-200 printer and can print 100 variations of Mona Lisa a day with crisp detail and vivid colors, this doesn't make it an "art", or you - an artist. Same as watching sports - doesn't make you an athlete. A new generation of Promtomusic (c).

P.S. What is great, that centuries of music is available to purchase or rent either digital or CDs, LPs, etc. No shortage of good entertainment for my lifetime smile

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I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on. It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output. Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him.
I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody?

It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL.

Lots of good points being made here by some level headed people though.

In the meantime, some of the AI stuff I have played with has given me some really good ideas!


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In this explosive fire storm of technical innovation we are all witnessing (aka AI development), my hope is that BiaB doesn't become obsolete.

More than ever, companies large and small must adapt, incorporate, pivot and invent or face decline.


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Yes, indeed. The sky is falling — again.


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Originally Posted by etcjoe
I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on.
When you create music, you don't draw from the audio signatures of millions of songs to generate not only replicate chord progressions, but instruments, vocals, and studio effects.

Quote
It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output.
Not "1000's", but millions of songs.

Songwriters remember songs.

AI doesn't remember anything - it stores the information in a neural network and uses that to create songs that are based on that information.

AI is designed as a tool that learns the elements of millions of song - including the voices and the instruments - and then creates new songs by mixing elements of those songs. Every song created is a remix of a prior song.

That's entirely unlike how people learn and replicate music. As a small example, AI isn't going to include ideas inspired by a T.S. Eliot poem, the death of a loved one, or a seeing a rose in a garden.

Every word that AI writes is taken from lyrics from someone else's song, using voices copied from other singers.

Quote
Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him.
But AI doesn't know whether something it replicates is copyright infringing or not, because it's all potentially copyright infringing. Everything it does is created by a process of copying. The difference is that the process of replicating the sounds can usually hide the source material because there's so much of it.

Quote
I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc...
That's not because it can't do that, but because the designers have intentionally hidden those controls from you. But AI can very much create songs with Elvis' voice, or riffs created by Chuck Berry.

Quote
...which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody?
Because it mixes together inputs, AI songs tend to be an average of the training data.

So it will tend to make generic choices, except when it drops signature sounds, like guitar licks and vocals.

Equating the process that AI uses with the process songwriters uses is a false equivalence.

AI doesn't have its own voice, the ability to play guitar, or the ability to consider the emotional impact of its lyrics.

Quote
It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL.
Unfortunately, this is likely to be 100% accurate.

It seems that companies that own the copyright aren't interested in preventing AI from competing with artists, but are more interested in making sure they get a piece of that pie.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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