PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production DISCUSSION RE COYOTE. are there uses for it ? (includeing example audio excerpt.)

All...

well ive had a frustrating time trying to find something to replace coyo with a better sounding gm sound set.
at the same time looking for a gm product with the ease of use and low resource useage of coyo...sigh.

such doesnt seem to exist.

the problem i find with lots of vi's as i said earlier is many times the time taken with them compared to coyo and complexity of some vi's.

lol...basically i want coyo on steroids ie coyo pro lets say.
if anyone knows a vi with gm support and coyos ease of use/ease of setup on a track while being light on pc resources...gimme a shout.

happiness.

om

I suspect that, to some extent at least, better sounding and the same low resource usage may be somewhat contradictory.

What I find frustrating is that even VSTSynthFont64, which PGM quietly bundle with BiaB but don't talk much about, sounds pretty good with a good soundfont, but is just a bit of a pain to use with BiaB. In fact nearly(?) every other synth seems a pain with BiaB. I don't know about with RB.

Like so many things, I struggle to understand why PGM don't polish these things more. Perhaps in this case it's because they see RTs as the main product and don't really care aboit MIDI.

As I think a couple of people have said, maybe use Coyote to rough out an idea, then transfer the MIDI to a DAW and use decent VSTis. The problem, of course, is that isn't the workflow you want, at least in the early stages.

All.
(and might be of interest to new users.)

heres a fascinating mode of operation or a 'quirk' in bb illustrating
a major advantage of haveing coyo in bb preferences as the default synth.
viz...

IF i use any other default vst other than coyo in bb preferences one would think logically...
(and i'm thinking of a new user getting confused on this)
THAT playing back the midi style demo or double clicking on a midi style the non coyo default plugin sounds would be played.
(eg lets say i set bb default to sforzando OR synthfont or whatever say the 'stupid om plugin' that i just programmed...lol..)

BUT NO even though i have changed the default plugin from coyo to another plugin in bb preferences..
guess what ?? yep coyo sounds are still used in auditioning a style demo. obviously the reason being i guess cos i'm useing a non gm plugin.

THUS given the above a bottom line advantage of coyo as default is i save time cos i dont have to faff around spending time setting up sound patches.
WHEREAS if i use another default like sforzando or something else i DO have to manually set up the sound patches. ie score +1 for coyo.

now one can imagine if one is useing a lot of midi tracks going non coyo as default means a lot of patch set up work. ie time spent away from working fast cos of auditioning of sound patches.
(i wont even mention the flexibility of rb with a capability of oodles of midi tracks.)

in summary if one isnt useing coyo one might have to do lots of pacth setting up.
see what i mean ?
this week ive been doing a ton of testing to see if i can use a non coyo default plugin whereby i dont have lots of patch set up work.
ie like coyo if i use any other default plugin can i get it so patches are set up automatically ?
but to no avail.
bottom line is i have to choose either coyo as default as the patches are set up for me thus i can do fast chord arranges OR another default plugin whereby i have to set up the manually.

now i'm no synth guru like many users on pg but i suspect the reason i'm gettin g probs when useing a non coyo default plugin is its not GM...right ??

see my dilemma ?

ive tried various workarounds to no avail.
what is REALLY INTERESTING is in bb mixer even though in the plugin section it says 'default synth' when useing a non coyo default plugin i still have to go through for each track and load the non coyo plugin...so it says then 'sforzando' or whatever.

i can only conclude from the above that useing coyo there are some pg programming routines that set up the patches for the user. if so +1 to coyo whereas not useing coyo the same pg programming routines dont apply ??
which leaves me pondering if i were useing TTS-1 GM plugin...
WOULD THE PATCHES BE SET UP AUTOMATICALLY ??

any synth pro's feel free to jump in and comment.
eg matt or charlie or other users as i dont consider myself a synth pro.
am i correct in thinking that useing a gm default plugin i wouldnt have to go through the arduous task of setting up patches for each track ??
OR say if i used halion sonic ...its gm ??
aah the joys of creating songs...lol.

@Gordon.

1..re 'contradictory'. yes i agree. very good point.
2..re RT's. what i like to do is use coyo to get the arrange down fast useing midi styles..
then haveing that firmed up i start auditioning rt styles and rt/rd/supertrack content etc.

happiness.

om

Yes, if you use TTS-1 or any other ***GM VSTi*** as your default synth, BiaB will assign the proper instrument to each channel/track. But there aren't that many GM VSTi synths any more. The "trick" is that a ***GM*** VSTi can receive up to 16 different patch changes/instrument assignments using GM protocol. Most non-GM VSTis, like Sforzando, do not respond to GM protocol. Yes, this is confusing.

DcRon.

yep nailed it. not many options for what i want.
looked for gm rompler plugin also. but cant find gm ones.
i wish that pg would do a coyo type plugin with better sounds.

note looked at halion sonic free to test but gotta set up an account...sigh. oh well....fed up with haveing to set up accounts all the time.

happiness.

om

JOM, could you post a list of what you've tried and, in outline, what about them doesn't work for you?

I've been trying to think of possibilities that may work that you haven't tried. One is FluidSynth, which comes from the Linux world and has been the de-fact soundfont player for years. It is available for Windows. The easiest to use that I've seen, though, is VST3 only, which BiaB doesn't yet support, nor CLAP, nor LV2, so plenty of dead ends. There are some older VST versions about, but claimed 'harder to use'.

ARIA Player may work as I believe it uses SFZ soundfonts and which I think is free via here: https://usermanuals.garritan.com/ARIAPlayer/Content/p_update_aria.htm It says "update", but I believe one just downloads the current version.

There's the Robin Gareus x42 GMSynth, which is the one bundled with Ardour and MixBus: https://x42-plugins.com/x42/x42-gmsynth

I'll keep thinking and probably trying.

Gordon.
thanks.

mainly sforzando and vstsynth font....probs being the time it takes to set up
lots of patches if one has say a load of midi tracks going on versus coyo
which does it automatically.

i did come across x42 and even dloaded it...but win went bonkers with a warning when i tried to install.

anyhoo ive posted a wish in wishlists for a good gm plugin sorta like the ease of use of coyo but better gm sounds.

respect.

om

My go to midi synth in BIAB is VSTSynthFont. You say "...probs being the time it takes to set up". I have never had that problem! It may be because I simple don't use much midi in BIAB anymore. I long ago take all that to my DAW. Otherwise, maybe it is because I know how to use it.
So when I do I have no problem using it essentially as a plug and play. Could you be having troubles because you don't know how to use it? You just need to push a few buttons. Then save the file and the set up is done for that song. 1 minute at most! Notice I use the Coyote Forta GM SF files so I get the high quality of those sounds.



Have you done a successful install of the current version of VSTSynthFont?



Can I try to do a video for you about how it is set up?

Dan

Right, thanks.

As I'm sure you know, sforzando won't handle multiple instruments, so it's a long way from GM compliant.
I've found VSTSynthFont performs well, but we certainly agree that it's clumsy to manage.

I installed the x42 synth, but it's LV2 only, so BiaB won't recognise it. Windows popped up a warning that the publisher was unknown, but I've long know of Robin, so I wasn't too worried about proceeding with the install.

Dan.

yep i get all that...but...heres the issue.

i might go thru a ton of midi styles pg demos rapidly.
useing coyo as default in bb means i'm not setting patches up all the time cos midi styles can vary as to the patches in the pg demo styles. therefore i cant set up one patch map that applies to all midi styles. because then i wouldnt get audio diffs tween the many different styles.

now maybe i'm a dunce and doing something wrong...so..
if you have a vid...sure i would be glad to see it.
i am always open to new ideas.
just show me...lets take vstsynthfont as default bb synth in prefs how the patches automatically change as i go rapidly through all the pg midi demo song styles.
therein lies the rub. with coyo i dont have such worries....all done automatically.

your right i'm no synth pro.

one reason i want to use midi more to rapidly lay out song ideas is genning is instantaneous in bb/rb. i like to work fast.
also i'm not being selfish re my needs...ive got a fast ryzen pc.
blink of an eye in new bb tracks view. love it.
but i'm thinking of users with old clunky pc's whereby genning lots of audio tracks at same time might take some time.
so for that type of user i think they might like useing lots of midi tracks with
a nice default gm synth that sounds great.
thanks for your comments.

respect.

om

Gordon.

i agree mate. its a dogs breakfast lol.
happiness.

This one appears to be a GM "compatible" soft synth. Anyone try it? Purity Sonic Cat

The demos aren't that impressive to me, but the sounds appear to be customizable...

Quick and dirty just seeing if we are on the same page.

Dan.

thanks for doing the vid....kudos.

but what i'm talking about is a tad different.
please try the following.

(ENSURE COYO IS DEFAULT IN BB PREFS MATE.)

1. layout some chords in default style.
2..ensure bb mixer is displaying patches.
3..in bb F7 brings up styles.
4..now double clik on style SWIFTBAL...notice the patch display
shows jazz drums patch 33.
5..now double clik on TRADJAZZ style...notice now the drum patch is different
and now is standard drum kit 1.

ie with use of coyo above is automatic.
notice how the sound changes tween SWIFTBAL and TRADJAZZ ?


now the question becomes useing synthfont as default will the sound change
change tween SWIFTBAL and TRADJAZZ .
this is the nub of it. with coyo gm it does.
but other non gm plugins as default doesnt.


hopefully ive explained properly the problemo.


its all very fiddly sadly.

happiness.

om

What? It plays the correct patch without any fiddling. I just did all that fiddling to show you how it was doing it. Just load the midi file and hit play. Let me see if I can follow your instructions above.

Dan.

time for my bedtime here.
i'll check back in the morning mate.

happiness.

om

I have tried a lot of SF2 players and none of them are as convenient as Coyote. I did find one that worked exactly like Coyote BUT you had to load it with a SF2 every time you either changed songs or started BiaB. There used to be some SF2 players that worked like Coyote but since GM is a dying breed there isn't any VST2s that work like that any more, at least I haven't found one yet. Maybe if/when BiaB can use VST3s that will change.

When we posted about the demise of the TTS1, I asked what PG would be using as their default GM synth (Peter Gannon posted a while back that for testing and style develoment they used the TTS1), Simon said discussions were ongoing. Would be nice to know what they have decided as surely it would do exactly what we want for playing GM standard midi?

OMG I figured it out!!! The fix is so easy!! Even a child could do it !!!! Oh the DRAMA of it all! This is the death of Coyote DXi. Wait for it.... video to follow.

This may have been mentioned, but the comment that increasing the size of any replacement might make BIAB a problem on old machines with little storage, makes sense. I thought we were told that Coyote is small because it is not even a sound library; instead it allows use of the built-in Microsoft sounds. This explains why it’s so small, easy to use, and rather poor in sound quality.

Matt,
This is the description of size for the recent VILabs Modern D Piano:
34,615 samples composing 118GB wave data in a tidy 18GB file. Massive library, small footprint thanks to lossless compression and complex scripting. This also means fast loading and efficient CPU usage. And that is just the piano!

Now compare this to VSTSynthFont Setup file at 18.1 Mb and the coyote forte SF2 file at ~188.0 MB

Compared to Coyote Wave Table at ~200K

The Coyote Wave Table is dead! We all need to think bigger!

Dan