PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Bug with DAW plugin wave instructions and flac-only RT folder [Resolved]

Today I wasted a few more hours trying to determine in which areas is BiaB 2025 could be any better than 2024. For me. I do appreciate that for some people some new features could be essential. I just want the basic functionality to be accessible and usable.

I ordered the full downloadable Audiophile update. So all my audio files are now .flac. I decided to keep my old "Drums" and "RealTracks" folders just in case I needed to revert to Audiophile 2024. So I renamed these 2 folders BEFORE installing the full Audiophile 2025. Everything is brand new, but I do not have any .wma or .wav Realtrack accessible to BiaB.

BiaB standalone works. Same old bugs and a bunch of new ones. Perhaps more usable than 2024. No need for pre-rendering is a definitive advantage.

Then I gave an opportunity to the DAW plugin. It simply doesn't work with .flac only files! I cannot put the instructions to render audio into Reaper if audio is in the new format!

I could not believe it. I renamed folders to have my older .wav and .wma files accessible and now DAW plugin works. Much worse than last year. There is zero advantage in the pre-rendering because this functionality is not there. Reverted to 2025 .flac tracks and same thing, does not work. At all. When I click "send to Reaper" it takes moderate time (like normal time to generate all wavs), then it generates "charts" (on the right side), then I get a message saying "There are currently no WAV or MIDI tracks to play. Would you like to generate tracks to play in the plugin?. Then again.

Well, this is when I tick "Use Reaper Instructions". If I also tick "Render Wav and instructions", then it is even funnier. It takes the time to generate the .wav files in folder G:\bb\BBPlugin\SavedTracks but when sending to Reaper it starts sending DOZENS of empty tracks (about 3 each second). Each one opening a window asking to also import or not tempo maps. After opening some ~100 tracks and emerging windows, Reaper crashes (Congratulations, this is quite an achievement!).

If I revert to wav + wma it works like last year. Pre-auditioning is unusable (it was usable in 2024 version, I suspect it's an incompatibility with sampling rate but I won't debug it). But rendered files look more or less like last year.

.flac real tracks are properly installed and they work as expected in BiaB standalone (my expectations are not too high). So the problem is not related to installation. In fact the DAW plugin put all the correct audio infomration in G:\bb\BBPlugin\SavedTracks, which means .flac files were found and used.

To me it looks as if none in PGMusic took the time to test 2025 DAW plugin with the default Audiophile install (.flac, without any WMA or WAV). But I do not care at this point what's the root cause. My fault? Possibly.

Finally I decided to test an alternative method: DAW Plugin Standalone. Again it does not go well with .flac-only files. If I tick to generate "WAV instructions", nothing is generated. If I tick "WAV and instructions" it works, of course it stores new garbage in G:\bb\BBPlugin\SavedTracks. But (as the plugin) the audio engine does not work well. There are so many clicks, apparently regular (not totally random) distanced some 1/16 notes (I guess the length of audio chunks in BiaB). The rendered files in G:\bb\BBPlugin\SavedTracks are OK, but the plugin (standalone or accessed through a DAW) is full of such clicks.

My system is rock-solid for ALL of the many audio apps I use (including BiaB standalone and BiaB plugin 2024). Up to >200 tracks in orchestral pieces. No problem mixing a few CPU-heavy synths with some 100 orchestral tracks. But BiaB plugin got my system clicking as hell for the first time in so long time. Again quite an acievement.

For the record, the pluging (inside Reaper) uses the ASIO driver (6.4ms, PCI card) and the "standalone plugin" uses Windows driver at 10ms. Both are perfectly fine for anything I throw inside Reaper (using ASIO) or Windows (most standalone synths in my system are set to use Windows by default).

I think that's too much for me. BiaB 2024 (combined with some scripts to interface Reaper) is good enough to do the job when I need a tool like this. But learning how to use a future BiaB 2025 once the main bugs are solved is not worth the time investment when other tools simply work. Life is too short, I want to make some music in my spare time. If BiaB works for other people, I am happy for them but my experience as an user has been terrible.

Hi Parapente.

That's quite an experience you have been through. After reading your story, there is one thing that is unclear to me. You mention at the beginning that you downloaded the Audiophile update. Does this mean that you downloaded the 30GB of new material that BIAB 2025 has (that the 2024 version of the program did not), or did you download the 610 GB entire Audiophile edition of the program?

If it was the 30GB of new material that you downloaded, I'm guessing that BIAB still needs to access your 2024 Realtracks and Realdrums to work properly. From the sounds of things, these seem to be in a different location.

Regards,
--Noel

It is the full update ("2025 Audiophile from 2024 Audiophile"), the one listed as $169. Yes, the full 610GB.

You are totally right with your question. I guess that this "flac-only" version triggers the problems and make this case untested. I decided to go for this version because downloading is not a problem for me and for $20 extra I would not need to convert my 2024 WAV files to take full advantage of the new format (smaller size). And install process should be much cleaner installing from a single source.

I’m not disputing anything you have said but I’m unsure of one thing you stated because I went another route with the $199 audiophile SSD. The downloadable full audiophile version was only recently made available after Rustyspoon volunteered to test it. This was not available in beta testing 2025, as you suspected.

It is my understanding from several weeks ago that PG Music had decided to keep the WMA files in the audiophile version. The reason I understood was that they do take less space than Flac files, and someone might want a ‘light’ installation on one computer’s internal drive. Then they could connect a USB drive to get Flac files for a final production.

After many questions from us about whether and how to remove the WAV files no longer needed, and/or remove the WMA files if no longer wanted, I don’t know what was sent to you. Could you look inside one of your new RealTracks folders and see if you have both Flac and WMA, or just Flac, and let us know?

I clearly mentioned. ONLY FLAC.

With FLAC ONLY it does not work.
With Wav + wma it DOES work.

If I were a 2025 Audiophile user I'd be concerned what the plugin is using. Perhaps you (or somebody) could test and have a look at the spectrum (.fft) of a song (or single drums track) when using the DAW plugin. Perhaps the plugin is using WMA.

I have essentially that set-up. My desktop PC has the full audiophile installation, my laptop for practice has only the .wma files.

Thanks for finding that, I checked my Reaper source files and it's using wma and I have the Audiophile with wma/flac
I don't know what the main Biab app is using, it has *.WAV in the path in a frozen SGU so it could also be using wma rather than flac ?

In Reaper you can use https://stash.reaper.fm/v/47910/Change-selected-realtrack-source-file-type.zip this should fix the issue for now.

I used to beta test but now I test on release as there don't seem to be many testing the Plugin.

When I use the script to import a frozen SGU I can set it to the file format I want, and it will show in Reaper, but the Plugin don't show the file format:

parapente,
Sorry to hear about your issues. I must admit, I never tested Flac only with plugin or RB for that matter. BIAB main program runs fine. I use it almost daily and didn't notice anything of concern as far as Flac goes.

Yeah, I think your experience is unacceptable, but give it a few days. I have seen on a few occasions they released hot fixes in a very timely manner. Let's see what PGM says. Perhaps it's an easy fix. Flac was a major change, I am sure it's in their interest to make things work.

Yes, you did. Thank you for confirming that PG Music apparently did change their approach and did not include WMA in the new full audiophile download. This is news.

I can bring some light to the topic.
An "only flac file version" install of Realtracks will not work with both in the BB and in the plugin.
This was reported in pre-release and confirmed by PGM as an invalid installation method. (that fix is pending the Holiday break)
I use the plugin with .flac files with no issues.
The only working installation that works is to install both the .flac and .wma files and more importantly the .db0 and db1 files required to make the entire thing work.
If you look in your Realtracks directory for a particular instrument and see only .flac files you have a improper installation.
If you have the shipped disk, run the .wma installation on top of your .flac installation and it will fix the problem.

Flac only BIAB works OK for me. I did a clean install of downloadable version. There must be an issue with Plugin + Flac.

You have .flac + .bt files. The .bt file must be there.

There is a just .flac file option in the shipped disk version that only installs .flac and in that case nothing works. This has been confirmed by PGM.

It takes both .flac and .bt files.

I have only .flac + .wma + .bt and the plugin works with .flac.

There is definitely installation errors with the shipped disc version and most likely issues with the minimal number of files in the Real-track directory for the plug-in.

I did buy "Audiophile 2024 to 2025", which is supposed to include ALL the contents, ~600GB (not ~30GB). Downloadable. WITHOUT wma or wav. I did not install anything especial. It includes the .flac files and many auxiliary files, not only WAVs or WMAs. I did NOT delete anything from a recommended installation. I did not move anything. In fact this is the reason why I bought this pack ($169) instead of the Audiophile plus pack ($149). To make 100% sure I have a clean, standalone installation with reduced size.

Just in case I just KEPT my old folders in a different location. And it turns out that this is related to the bug. Alpha testing for free. You're welcome.

Please read the post above your post.
So between the three of us, we installed it with three different versions/ways
My post reflect issues with the shipped disk version which you did not buy.

There is clearly a bug with the plug-in if it does not find at least a .bt .flac and .wma file.

That combination works fine for me on my system.

The developer for the plug-in his on holiday and I’m sure he will address it immediately when returning.

Interesting point. I checked to see what I have in my Realtracks. I do have .flac and .bt1 files in many folders. "Holds" folders also have .bt0 and other extensions. In my case, with everything installed as it comes from PGM (without wma) it does not work.

Apparently the download version works exactly as the option you describe (.flac file option). It is the simplest explanation for me. Which leaves me wondering if the plugin ever worked with flac.

Yes, I have the same configuration. BIAB works. Plugin doesn't. "Plugin-standalone" does not.

Apparently not with the Downloadable only versions.
Good catch and I’m sure the developer will fix it immediately upon returning.

Yes, I read it, I was answering items one by one. So I think there is some consensus about a bug. And the possible mitigation is to use .bt (and other files depending on folders) plus .flac and .wma.

I could move all my old .wma files carefully to the same folders and try, but it is time consuming (especially if I want NOT to include the .wav files). Could you please try to find if when using the plugin the rendered wavs are using .wma or .flac waveforms? I suspect from musocity's comments that the plugin is simply using .wma.

For the sake of clarity.

This Flac issue seems to affect Plugin only. BIAB works fine. I had been using Flac only (no wma) BIAB for almost 2 weeks now. Again, regardless if you bought the Audiophile hard drive, downloaded partial Flac (yearly portion) or downloaded whole Audiophile Flac versions and no matter which installation option you chose, BIAB should work without issues. The problem is with Flac only + Plugin combination.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would wait. He will be back around first of the year.
It sounds better than wma, but I could be wrong.
I will look around but not clear how to detect source file as the algorithm uses the files in this order. 1) wave 2) flac 3) wma.
When drug into a DAW it the plugin renders wav files from the source files.
One thing I forgot to mention is the plugin directory paths to audio files for the plugin is not updated automatically nor does it sync with the BB settings and has to be manually set (preferences) to your audiophile directories.

1) yes
2) yes

Developers are off for a few days, but hopefully the following helps:

To be clear, this issue described above (FLAC-only issues when using plugin) doesn’t affect the 2025 biab program or RealBand at all. And doesn’t affect the 2025 physical audiophile (on the SDD in any case, including plugin)

It is just affecting someone doing all of these
1. using the plugin
2. who also has done a complete 600 GB flac-only download of the audiophile and
3. In the plugin. Doesn’t want .wav generated so de-selects “use wav and instructions” (or uses reaper instructions)

We plan a patch for the plugin so this specific case above works (using plugin+FLAC-only+ no wav generation ). That plugin patch will insure FLAC is used in all cases including when wavs aren’t generated ( wav instructions and reaper instructions)

In the meantime, someone with that situation above (e.g. the OP) can either skip using the plugin for a week or so until the patch is released, or use the plugin, but leave checked “x use wav and instructions”.
A rough guess is there are less than 5 people possible to see a bug like this, since a 600 GB download of the audiophile is something quite new, and it won’t be an issue for the plugin when the plugin patch is released in a week.

What category am I in as I get wma in the Plugin and I have the 2025 physical SSD audiophile ?

"What category am I in as I get wma in the Plugin and I have the 2025 physical SSD audiophile ?"
Physical SSD installs both (Flac and WMA)

“ What category am I in as I get wma ”

If using plugin with Reaper instructions, the plugin is filling in .wma in the instructions instead of .flac, so that you would be hearing the .wma when reaper plays those instructions. That will also be addressed in the plugin patch, and only applies to the plugin+ReaperInstructions. Other DAWS are fine since the .wav file generated uses the .flac, it’s just the special case of the reaper instructions that need this fix.

You're 100% right

That is what I suspected!

Maybe you can have an option in the Plugin to use wma for reaper instruction if users want wma over flac for some reason ?

Small correction to #3: The plugin fails always with the "only .flac" option (with all the extra files but no .wma or .wav). It fails with different symptoms. Doing nothing or opening dozens of tracks and ultimately crashing Reaper.

Well, the good part is it was acknowledged and express fix promised.

If I am not mistaken, Audiofile included in the past a downloadable version of Ultra Pack equivalent. With your Internet, should be a fast dl. You can rename Flac RT/RD folders and install U.pack and use it until patch arrives.

(1)

This is a very interesting thread parapente, jpettit, Rustyspoon#, Matt and musocity. It is well worth reading for all the valuable information that it contains. I appreciate all that I learnt from going through this
--Noel

Same here as I've been following.

An addendum that certainly should be picked up anyway by PGM, is that the downloaded PlusPAK also does not include the .wma files for (most of?) the new content.

I guess this type of situation can occur when a completely new format is put into the market before really adequate testing can be completed.

It should get sorted out soon, but it would be better if such potential issues could have been picked up before the new product was released.

At the same time, Rusty's experiment was a real success, and since he doesn't use the plugin, the error could not have been detected...

The type of situation shouldn't occur, of course, but the real world, deadlines, oversights and so on mean that it can and does happen. It does demonstrate the complexity of testing when one has to consider a number of different variables and their permutations. The nuber of things to test can go sky high. At least BiaB and the plugin are unlikely to kill anyone. Anyone tried the same thing with RB? I suspect that's OK, but...

I have some sympathy with them, even though lots of the complexity is self-inflicted.

My sentiments also.
Avoidable problems? Yes, probably, but that would require a stronger and more elaborate testing regime.

In addition to what you've said, Gordon, I'd also like to point out that the PG Music team worked tirelessly throughout beta testing. I honestly don't know when they got to sleep.

At the end of the day, everyone is human and being human means that there is always an "in hindsight" component to everything that is done. None of us see with absolute clarity until we look at things in review. That's why the lessons learned from debriefs are so important. Sometimes, for whatever reason, it is easy to overlook things (even things that some might think are obvious).

Just recently, a person on this forum asked about using the Juke Box with the MIDI Melodist. Most BIAB users have probably not engaged this option in the Melodist dialogue window. I knew where to find it, but it was the first time that I had used it. It turns out that in migrating the Melodist to the MultiPicker Library (MPL), something happened that stopped the Juke Box in the non-MPL window from working. I'm sure that PG Music didn't break this feature, nor leave it broken on purpose. It wasn't until this particular user, for whom the Juke Box feature in the Melodist is an important creative tool, tested it and discovered it wasn't working properly, that the problem was discovered. None of the beta testers, including me, discovered this even though a great deal of effort went into beta testing.

--Noel

I have no doubt and this particular issue is one that it's easy to see can slip through without being noticed. I wouldn't pretend similar has never happened to me, because it certainly has!

I commented somewhere else recently about programs that sanity-check their own behaviour, saying that I had a bit of a love/hate relationship with the principle. Love because it can trap mistakes, corruptions, aggressors; hate becasue every line of sanity checking has itself the potential to cause a problem. Mistakes, corruptions and aggression can happen to them, too.

It's tough getting the balance right, particularly when the risk of problems rises as an exponent of the amount of code.

That is, though, one of the reasons I think the applications would benefit from fewer new bits and better rationalisation of what already exists. Exponents can be scary things.

Yes Biab users need to help develop the Plugin more, they should not knock things just because Reaper is mentioned, but look into these things mentioned, try them out, learn from them to help improve PG products for the future.
If you use the Plugin in Reaper you can use any audio format you like as I have shown, flac is nothing new. As I said get rid of the wma for m4a and you will now have a crossplatform audio format flac-m4a for Win & Mac.
By trying it with Reaper it has now developed into a play direct Plugin, this allows now for it to be developed further to give non destructive editing in ANY DAW. not to mention a Live Arranger !

By "Live Arranger" do you mean that I could load up a style (or any combo or RTs, RDs, and MIDI tracks), and route a MIDI track to the plugin, or play chords from a MIDI keyboard, and have it play those chords in realtime?

It's extremely frustrating that the plugin does not have any documentation!

Now it's playing direct this can be added to it's functionality easily:
Easy Live Arranger

I did make a script for Reaper and it worked fine with smooth seek enabled, it has midi keyboard chord input that goes to a region with the same name as the chord
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cclb5zq413870e4/BB-Tracks-Live-Chord-Playing.mp4?dl=0

You can try it in Reaper, in the Plugin In Preferences>Rendering disable "Generate Audio for Midi.." and disable "Generate Style Mix" and use WAV instructions only, in Reaper enable smooth seek.

Thanks Musocity, I'll give this a try :-)

I don't understand. How are you routing this? Where is the MIDI coming from?

I'm just manually changing regions by clicking timeline.
To use midi chord input you need to use:
ReaTrak midi chord input to region chord player.zip (green Help button at bottom)
To set the region color use this script:
ReaTrak-instant-trak-creator-gui.zip

You can try if if you don't mind a challenge or just wait for PG to put a midi chord detection element in the Plugin Standalone (just like Biab Window>MIDI Chord Detection). It's just a proof of concept example. Just another example of using Reaper (that many complain about) to improve PG products.

Ah, I see.

Thanks for the clarification!

The bug reported by the OP has now been resolved:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=836622#Post836622