My apologies if this has been discussed before. I did search for it but I didn't see any subject headings that looked relevant.
I want to use BIAB to create backing track for a melody in 6/8 time. In the Set Time Signature box, I see 3/4 and 6/4, but not 6/8. There is a note in the box that reads, "Notes: For Time signature higher than 4/4, each bar is spread out over 2 or more bars (e.g. 5/4 will be written as 3/4+2/4). For 12/8 or 6/8, use 4/4 with a triplet feel (eg. Irish). For 9/8 use a waltz." When I try "4/4 with a triplet feel" I don't get anything like the feel of 6/8 time. 3/4 isn't satisfactory either; "1 2 3, 1 2 3" just is not "1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6". Is there any way around this utterly astonishing lack in BIAB?
Unfortunately, I don't think that real 6/8 time exists. BIAB only works in 3/4 or 4/4. It 'emulates' 6/8 time by creating a triplet feel. Real time-signatures other than 3/4 and 4/4 have been requested for many years, but the fundamental building blocks of BIAB don't allow that. The program only ever works correctly for 3/4 or 4/4. Others may know more.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
With Biab time signatures other than 4/4 3/4 you need to stay in Biab as these won't fit existing tracks in a DAW. The old code prevents this along with more than 255 bars.
With Biab time signatures other than 4/4 3/4 you need to stay in Biab as these won't fit existing tracks in a DAW. The old code prevents this along with more than 255 bars.
Yes, unless you are going to play your own parts then you can import the BiaB tracks into your DAW. When I use time signatures other than 3/4 or 4/4 I know that I have to play my own instruments for any other parts/tracks.
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
For 6/8 time, which BiaB doesn't support directly, I use either:
1) 3/4 time, where each cell in the BiaB grid becomes half a bar of music
2) 4/4 time with sw 8th notes, which turns each cell in the BiaB grid into two bars of 6/8 music or one bar of 12/8
3) 4/4 time with sw 8th notes, and then use F5 to make the cell in the BiaB grid one bar of 6/8
Of course, this is both song and style dependent. Some 3/4 or sw8 styles won't fit any song, some fit different songs with different degrees of success.
As soon as you stop thinking about a grid in the BiaB matrix as a bar of music, and think of it in terms of 3s and 4s subdivided in halves or thirds, a new world of BiaB opens up.
The 6/8 time signature can be tricky in BIAB since it's not directly available. As the note suggests, you can use a 4/4 with a triplet feel, but it might not feel quite right. What you can do is manually adjust the tempo and maybe tweak the feel in the style or rhythm section. Alternatively, you could try creating your own custom rhythm pattern or use an external tool to get the exact 6/8 vibe you're looking for.
As soon as you stop thinking about a grid in the BiaB matrix as a bar of music, and think of it in terms of 3s and 4s subdivided in halves or thirds, a new world of BiaB opens up.
The problem of course is that any associated notation is almost impossible to read. The notation will not show with a 6/8 time signature. It would be much better if the program handled these time signatures natively.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
As soon as you stop thinking about a grid in the BiaB matrix as a bar of music, and think of it in terms of 3s and 4s subdivided in halves or thirds, a new world of BiaB opens up.
The problem of course is that any associated notation is almost impossible to read. The notation will not show with a 6/8 time signature. It would be much better if the program handled these time signatures natively.
+1
Yep. I've always found it close to impossible to read. The visual clues are all wrong. At least 6/8 can be done as sensible bars. My wife wanted to sing "Light Flight" by Pentangle: The verse is 5/4, 5/4, 2/4, with a chorus in 6/4. Not a hope! It's hard enough when the notation is right.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
As soon as you stop thinking about a grid in the BiaB matrix as a bar of music, and think of it in terms of 3s and 4s subdivided in halves or thirds, a new world of BiaB opens up.
The problem of course is that any associated notation is almost impossible to read. The notation will not show with a 6/8 time signature. It would be much better if the program handled these time signatures natively.
+1
The problem of course is that any associated notation is almost impossible to read. The notation will not show with a 6/8 time signature. It would be much better if the program handled these time signatures natively. [/quote]
I've never considered BiaB a notation app, for this and other reasons.
As an auto-accompaniment app, BiaB does a stellar job, and that's what I use it for.
I have an old version of Encore and I also use MuseScore for my notation needs, which are mainly “head charts”.
It would be nice if BiaB supported time signatures, but I would guess if they changed their app to do so, back-compatibility would be lost, and all the saved work we have now would be useless.
It would be nice if BiaB supported time signatures, but I would guess if they changed their app to do so, back-compatibility would be lost, and all the saved work we have now would be useless.
It's rather amazing that it was originally designed, all those years ago, with real support for only 3/4 and 4/4 time signatures.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
try RB and see if it meets your needs. in RB one isnt limited to a few time sig numerator/denominotors. in addition in rb one can see in tracks view the divisions in the bar for example. there is a dialog in rb specifically to set odd time sigs.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
It's rather amazing that it was originally designed, all those years ago, with real support for only 3/4 and 4/4 time signatures.
I suspect it went from a pragmatic "get something out there; we'll add that later" to "it's too hard to add it just now, it'll keep a bit longer", to "it's too hard now, we should have done this right at the start".
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
It would be nice if BiaB supported time signatures, but I would guess if they changed their app to do so, back-compatibility would be lost, and all the saved work we have now would be useless.
It's rather amazing that it was originally designed, all those years ago, with real support for only 3/4 and 4/4 time signatures.
I remember DOS 5 and Atari versions of BiaB. Three instruments, quantized limited drum grid, 24 styles, and nothing else. No user styles, no intros, no endings, no shots, no holds, no melody track, and so on.
It's come a long way, and still has back-compatibility. IMO, the back compatibility is worth the inconveniences and workarounds to get BiaB to do what I want it to do.
try RB and see if it meets your needs. in RB one isnt limited to a few time sig numerator/denominotors. in addition in rb one can see in tracks view the divisions in the bar for example. there is a dialog in rb specifically to set odd time sigs.
om
I tried RB, and while it is a nice app, I miss some of the global editing features in my sequencer of choice, Master Tracks Pro.
These features save me hours of time when working in MIDI.
Example: if I have a drum track with all the percussion instruments in it, and I decide I want the snare hits only on beats 2 and 4 to be louder, I can highlight the drum track, go to the change filter and make only the snare drum and only on those beats louder by the measure I want.
Example: If I decide I'd like to shift the 3rd beat of any triplet to be a little bit later (increase swing factor), I can highlight the whole sequence and move only the 3rd beat of every triplet a little bit later.
There are more advanced global edits than that, but I'd have to show the dialog boxes to get them across, plus a lot of words making this a long, off-topic post.
Global edits like this save a lot of time, I'd hate to do it on a note by note basis.
If I need notation, it's usually just a head chart, and I can do one up in a couple of hours or much less, depending on the complexity, using Encore or MuseScore.
It's come a long way, and still has back-compatibility. IMO, the back compatibility is worth the inconveniences and workarounds to get BiaB to do what I want it to do.
Indeed. PGM clearly work very hard at that and I commend them for it. I do though think there are other ways they could address it.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
maybe i'm not understanding correctly.... but cant some of what you want to do eg point 1 drum filtering be done in rb piano roll ? and in data filter options dialog in rb ?...check in the rb manual. you can also seperate a midi data stream to individual tracks. but maybe i'm wrong re understanding your needs.
actually notes thinking about it...as i like a challenge and youve piqued my interest... post a midi somewhere with explicit instructions what you want done to it. so i can experiment in rb for s's and giggles and report back .
as to notation...no comment as i'm terrible at notation...lol
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/18/2509:34 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
When suggestions are way too far ahead of their time they can't be conceived to be real and seem like the rantings of a crazy man. The way to fix all the old limitations with Biab generation is put the code into C++ JUCE, fixes everything in so many ways (including better GUIs).
I showed it done in Reaper, no 255 limit, no fake time signatures, audio, midi or video if I generate up 6/8, 5/4, 12/8 track it will fit the DAW time signature and existing tracks I can drop any time signature sheet music from MuseScore site into the DAW and it just fits, then I can also generate up tracks to fit it. This is not saying forget Biab use a DAW, it's simply demonstrates what can be if PG are willing and don't need to be pushed into it screaming, it's like having to go to 64bit finally because Apple banned 32bit apps it would be better just to see the writing on the wall rather than burring heads in sand, putting things off, making do, make the quantum leap as the product well deserves it. PG should not have to be behind all the time, OMG we only just got VST3
great explanation. i'm gonna see what i can do. in the interim i would suggest your graphics be posted in rb forum with the title 'midi can rb do this' ? reason being that maybe other rb users might have better ways of doing things than i. also hopefully Jeff Y will see the post and comment.
just an idea.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
Back OT, 6/8 is a kludge but easily done following many of the suggestions posted here.
As for notation, export the MIDI to most notation apps and fix it there. Finale/Dorico/Sibelius all handle this easily. MuseScore, not so much but I was told at NAMM that the upcoming v. 4.5 will be much better (long talk with MuseGroup about this and other issues last week in Anaheim).
The reason that Real Band never existed on the Mac is because GarageBand is free (since 2012, I think). PG Music has considered RB for Mac redundant—not sure they're wrong but I am long past caring—don't see RB bringing anything to the table that I'm not doing now.
As for myself, I start a lot of projects in BIAB but finish most in Digital Performer where I can edit my performances to the gnat's whisker if I so please. This has become more difficult since BIAB is not Apple Silicon Native and no longer plays well with other apps that are—this got worse with 2024. But… BIAB still saves me a ton of time which is why I use and like it.
I'd much rather see AS Native for 2025 than 6/8 & 12/8 be added—but I do think it's long past time.
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