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This thread is for suggestions regarding the Notation view. This is for specific suggestions only, not general comments.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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1) It needs the same pan, zoom, and scroll as the other views.
2) It needs a linear one-line view with the same timeline as all other views.
3) It needs a loop bar in timeline the same as all other views.
4) It needs a toolbar for tools write (pencil) durations etc. (look at the state of the art in notation tools)
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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I've used about every notation program there is. All I can say is, please don't change too much from what is the best way I ever found to enter notation. I'm OK with Jeff's ideas, though: Yes, #4 using a pencil mouse tool to modify note durations is preferable to having to Edit, Duration and entering typed numbers. #1 is to bring the window up to date; #2 and #3 make it more compatible with the rest of the views in the program.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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In any of the notation views, no matter which track it's displaying. It should have a background color following each bar, just like the Chords view does.
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Please don't change Staff Roll Notation Mode. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=30022&filename=staff roll mode 2019.JPG) The convenience and ease of using the the blue horizontal line to control a note's length and the blue vertical line to control a note's velocity are amazing tools. I use them all the time. These note properties are presently adjusted by dragging the mouse with the right button held down. This technique is fast and easy. Like Matt, I find note-entry in Editable Notation Mode the most efficient and easiest note-entry mode I've ever used. I prefer it to other scoring programs I've used. I use it regularly as I create a lead sheet for every song I write.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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I’m with Noel. I tend to forget there are three notation modes, and I should have been precise that I was talking only about editable notation mode.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I've used about every notation program there is. All I can say is, please don't change too much from what is the best way I ever found to enter notation. Matt, or anyone, can you tell us what you like about it compared to say Notion, Finale, Sibelius, Musecore, or Dorico?
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Jeff, is it better to start another thread for discussion purposes? In his opening post, Andrew has asked that these thread created by PG Music be used only for ideas not for discussions. I was in two minds about posting my comment regarding the Staff Roll Notation mode because it seemed to be more along discussion lines than ideas lines.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Yes, you are correct.
I have found the score view difficult and I can learn what Matt thinks is cool elsewhere.
Last edited by jpettit; 01/24/25 09:29 AM.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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When I get more time. One point now is that even though I often continue in another software, if I have to just enter a melody quickly, BIAB is great. Some of the reason is familiarity: you use what you know best, and I’ve been using BIAB longer than most software. Another is the grid BIAB uses that I can click on to determine the rhythm because it ends the prior note. Most software takes two steps: select a note value, place the note. BIAB does this in one click. Another is to tap in the rhythm, then drag to the correct pitches later.
Also, I sometimes bring a MIDI file into BIAB just to expand or contract the duration so it matches the tempo of the project (for example, did they write the samba in 4/4 at 190 or in cut time at 95 for a half-note)? There may be other programs that will do this but I haven’t found one.
I think I can go on if I spend any time on the subject.
I have mentioned, I do all my score writing in Notion 6 now. Note entry is ok if you know the keyboard shortcuts. Notion takes the WAV file I produce in BIAB for a jazz rhythm section and then I build the orchestra or big band parts around it.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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When I get more time. One point now is that even though I often continue in another software, if I have to just enter a melody quickly, BIAB is great. Some of the reason is familiarity: you use what you know best, and I’ve been using BIAB longer than most software. I've found entering a melody like that, from start to finish, quite good, though I often get wrong notes and have to adjust them ... less so with the big-notes presentation. My difficulty with that method is a long-standing RSI issue with using a mouse. I just can't use one for long before I have to take a break. And because of that long-standing issue, I'm pretty ambidextrous with mice. My preferred way of entering is from a PC as opposed to a MIDI controller is via the PC keyboard, so I prefer the duration+note method using a...g and cursors for accidentals. Where I really struggle with the BiaB method is in navigating my way around ... I tend to go to the chordsheet cell, then to notation, but I then have to check if I'm in the right chorus for what I want, then it's back to that mouse again. I fully recognise that this might be mostly "just me".
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Where I really struggle with the BiaB method is in navigating my way around ... I tend to go to the Chord sheet cell, then to notation, but I then have to check if I'm in the right chorus for what I want, then it's back to that mouse again. When investigating commonality between views last year for the Workflow video, my number one reaction was. "Good grief where they all coded by different people with different standards in different decades?". I guess the Notation View's scroll, pan and zoom where coded long before people expected standards for navigation especially with mouse/wheel modifiers. You can see navigation in the chord view is a lot more modern approach.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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When investigating commonality between views last year for the Workflow video, my number one reaction was. "Good grief where they all coded by different people with different standards in different decades?". You may say that sir, I couldn't possibly comment.  There are many of aspects of BiaB that give a similar impression. It's partly a consequence of adding new features rather than thinking properly about the look, feel, direction of the product, but I think it probably is also precisely as you say. BiaB often gives me the strong impression that there was no overall architectural philosopy or control. That may be harsh of me, but I don't think so.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Jeff, I go back to 1993 with BIAB and only a year earlier with Encore notation, so those old methods are pretty ingrained, but they still work for me. I don’t think mouse notation entry in BIAB has changed much.
Gordon, yes, one time when I was writing for a symphony orchestra, my wrist became somewhat inflamed by so much mouse use. I then developed pretty good skill using it with my other hand for awhile. I don’t play keyboard.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Jeff, I go back to 1993 with BIAB and only a year earlier with Encore notation, so those old methods are pretty ingrained, but they still work for me. I don’t think mouse notation entry in BIAB has changed much. Matt, my reply was purely about navigating (zoom, scroll and pan) I have no opinion about the editing in Notation view. I will test now: 1) a little laggy 2) do not like pop up warning all the time. 3) Note duration very mysterious, no tool bar of duration, I figure out it look like it was assuming whole note or two half note s and rewrote if you added more not to show the difference. I then remember I had gotten lost before and gave up and went back to Notion. Are there good videos on how to use it?
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Gordon, yes, one time when I was writing for a symphony orchestra, my wrist became somewhat inflamed by so much mouse use. Perhaps I should assure that it wasn't BiaB that caused my injury ... that dates from a large report I wrote in the "company standard" wordprocessor that ultimately proved unsuitable, then intensively copy+pasted the whole thing into another that "was acceptable" to find similar problems, and then again into LaTeX which finally allowed me properly to manage section/paragraph numbering and revisions. I worked through the pain ...and I've had to do so occasionally ever since.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Jeff, got it. But I LIKE that there is no 'tool of duration', assuming you are just entering notes in linear order. That's why it's only one mouse action per note. Even if it isn't, it's easy enough to Edit the note parameters.
Gordon, I urge you NOT to work through the pain. Find another answer. And like you, it wasn't BIAB that ever caused me any wrist trouble. In fact, related to what Jeff mentioned, it was the 'pick a note, then place a note' in my notation software that got me.
Any of you who visited Don Gaynor, I sent him my trackball.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Gordon, I urge you NOT to work through the pain. I generally don't now, but when I had a day job there were times when I had little choice if I were to get the work done. Some tools offer no option than using a mouse. Trying to avoid the pain with those tools was why I became pretty ambidextrous with mouse, vertical mouse, trackball and thumb-trackball and why I often wore a wrist brace. Fortunately I can now just avoid most of those. If it starts to hurt now, normally I curse and stop. I agree 100% with your statement. If a mouse is causing pain, do not work through it ... it will likely cause long term damage,
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Good point Matt - I agree, the notation entry in Band-in-a-Box can be much quicker because you don't have to select the note duration. It does have some drawbacks but I prefer the way it works over other notation software and I'm not sure it would be beneficial to change it. Also a good point about navigation within the notation window - I agree it is awkward.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Good point Matt - I agree, the notation entry in Band-in-a-Box can be much quicker because you don't have to select the note duration. It does have some drawbacks but I prefer the way it works over other notation software and I'm not sure it would be beneficial to change it. Also a good point about navigation within the notation window - I agree it is awkward. Andrew, there is no mouse or arrow key zoom pan or scroll. It should be identical to all other views. (In fact all should be the same) I cannot figure out how to enter a whole note or half note? How do I loop a few bars to see if the rhythm and notes are right? More videos on how to enter any duration or rest with the current algorithm would be good,
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Top 5 according to AI:
1. **Consistency in Pan, Zoom, and Scroll**:
- **Why?** Users want the Notation view to match the other views in terms of navigation. Consistent navigation tools improve user experience by making it intuitive and seamless to switch between views.
2. **Linear One-Line View**:
- **Why?** Implementing a linear one-line view with a consistent timeline across all views would make it easier to follow the notation and maintain the same timeline structure throughout the application. This coherence is essential for users to track changes and understand the flow of the music.
3. **Loop Bar in Timeline**:
- **Why?** Adding a loop bar in the timeline, similar to other views, allows users to practice and review specific sections of their music more effectively. This feature enhances usability and control during playback, helping users focus on particular parts of their compositions.
4. **Toolbar for Tools**:
- **Why?** A toolbar for tools like a pencil to modify note durations and other advanced notation tools would streamline the editing process. This would make it easier for users to create and edit music, reducing the need for cumbersome menus and speeding up their workflow.
5. **Maintaining Staff Roll Notation Mode**:
- **Why?** The Staff Roll Notation mode is highly valued for its convenience and efficiency. The blue horizontal and vertical lines for controlling note length and velocity are user-friendly and make the note-entry process faster. Users appreciate this mode for its simplicity and effectiveness.
These suggestions highlight the need for a more consistent, user-friendly, and efficient Notation view, aligning with modern standards and user expectations.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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I am interested in entering notation for a self-recorded artist track for bass guitar, but I want TAB and not standard notation. Since I do not read standard notation especially for the bass clef, I discovered that the only way to enter notes in the combo regular notation/TAB view for a bass guitar, is to enter the note on the standard notation staff and then the TAB notation will show up, created by BB (and not always correct). BUT it cannot be done the other way, that is, enter the TAB numeral on the correct string and have the standard note show up. I would be happy just to have TAB that is enter-able, but PG chat tells me "nope"
REQUEST: in notation view allow direct entry of TAB rather than requiring entry to be in standard notation only.
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If I may, here's an old wish that I will resurrect:
In the Editable Notation Mode, make the Rest checkbox sticky and make it work on Notes and Rests both.
Full disclosure: Peter and I did discuss this perhaps two decades ago, and he considered it but chose to keep it the way it is.
Explanation:
To delete a note now, you have to take two steps: right-click, select Delete. How about a checkbox so you can click on a note to delete it? That would make editing a song quicker; just scroll through the song linearly and click to delete any note you wish.
However, even this two-step method does not work with rests. You cannot right-click on a rest. To erase a rest, I think you have to go through a bunch of steps:
Melody menu
Edit Melody
Step-Edit Melody
scroll to the Event that has the rest
click Delete
click Close
Let's have the checkbox for rests work for inserting or deleting a rest, and make the checkbox a sticky.
Bonus points for anyone who knows the un-intuitive key to hold down to delete more than one rest in a row, and can find this answer in less than two minutes. Yes, there is an answer.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box® for iOS® :Summary video.
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