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This thread is for suggestions regarding the Notation view. This is for specific suggestions only, not general comments.


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1) It needs the same pan, zoom, and scroll as the other views.
2) It needs a linear one-line view with the same timeline as all other views.
3) It needs a loop bar in timeline the same as all other views.
4) It needs a toolbar for tools write (pencil) durations etc. (look at the state of the art in notation tools)


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I've used about every notation program there is. All I can say is, please don't change too much from what is the best way I ever found to enter notation. I'm OK with Jeff's ideas, though: Yes, #4 using a pencil mouse tool to modify note durations is preferable to having to Edit, Duration and entering typed numbers. #1 is to bring the window up to date; #2 and #3 make it more compatible with the rest of the views in the program.


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In any of the notation views, no matter which track it's displaying. It should have a background color following each bar, just like the Chords view does.

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Please don't change Staff Roll Notation Mode.

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The convenience and ease of using the the blue horizontal line to control a note's length and the blue vertical line to control a note's velocity are amazing tools. I use them all the time. These note properties are presently adjusted by dragging the mouse with the right button held down. This technique is fast and easy.

Like Matt, I find note-entry in Editable Notation Mode the most efficient and easiest note-entry mode I've ever used. I prefer it to other scoring programs I've used. I use it regularly as I create a lead sheet for every song I write.


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I’m with Noel. I tend to forget there are three notation modes, and I should have been precise that I was talking only about editable notation mode.


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
I've used about every notation program there is. All I can say is, please don't change too much from what is the best way I ever found to enter notation.
Matt, or anyone, can you tell us what you like about it compared to say Notion, Finale, Sibelius, Musecore, or Dorico?


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Jeff, is it better to start another thread for discussion purposes? In his opening post, Andrew has asked that these thread created by PG Music be used only for ideas not for discussions. I was in two minds about posting my comment regarding the Staff Roll Notation mode because it seemed to be more along discussion lines than ideas lines.


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Yes, you are correct.
I have found the score view difficult and I can learn what Matt thinks is cool elsewhere.

Last edited by jpettit; 01/24/25 08:29 AM.

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When I get more time. One point now is that even though I often continue in another software, if I have to just enter a melody quickly, BIAB is great. Some of the reason is familiarity: you use what you know best, and I’ve been using BIAB longer than most software. Another is the grid BIAB uses that I can click on to determine the rhythm because it ends the prior note. Most software takes two steps: select a note value, place the note. BIAB does this in one click. Another is to tap in the rhythm, then drag to the correct pitches later.

Also, I sometimes bring a MIDI file into BIAB just to expand or contract the duration so it matches the tempo of the project (for example, did they write the samba in 4/4 at 190 or in cut time at 95 for a half-note)? There may be other programs that will do this but I haven’t found one.

I think I can go on if I spend any time on the subject.

I have mentioned, I do all my score writing in Notion 6 now. Note entry is ok if you know the keyboard shortcuts. Notion takes the WAV file I produce in BIAB for a jazz rhythm section and then I build the orchestra or big band parts around it.


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
When I get more time. One point now is that even though I often continue in another software, if I have to just enter a melody quickly, BIAB is great. Some of the reason is familiarity: you use what you know best, and I’ve been using BIAB longer than most software.
I've found entering a melody like that, from start to finish, quite good, though I often get wrong notes and have to adjust them ... less so with the big-notes presentation. My difficulty with that method is a long-standing RSI issue with using a mouse. I just can't use one for long before I have to take a break. And because of that long-standing issue, I'm pretty ambidextrous with mice.

My preferred way of entering is from a PC as opposed to a MIDI controller is via the PC keyboard, so I prefer the duration+note method using a...g and cursors for accidentals.

Where I really struggle with the BiaB method is in navigating my way around ... I tend to go to the chordsheet cell, then to notation, but I then have to check if I'm in the right chorus for what I want, then it's back to that mouse again.

I fully recognise that this might be mostly "just me".


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Where I really struggle with the BiaB method is in navigating my way around ... I tend to go to the Chord sheet cell, then to notation, but I then have to check if I'm in the right chorus for what I want, then it's back to that mouse again.
When investigating commonality between views last year for the Workflow video, my number one reaction was. "Good grief where they all coded by different people with different standards in different decades?".
I guess the Notation View's scroll, pan and zoom where coded long before people expected standards for navigation especially with mouse/wheel modifiers.

You can see navigation in the chord view is a lot more modern approach.


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Originally Posted by jpettit
When investigating commonality between views last year for the Workflow video, my number one reaction was. "Good grief where they all coded by different people with different standards in different decades?".
You may say that sir, I couldn't possibly comment. whistle

There are many of aspects of BiaB that give a similar impression. It's partly a consequence of adding new features rather than thinking properly about the look, feel, direction of the product, but I think it probably is also precisely as you say. BiaB often gives me the strong impression that there was no overall architectural philosopy or control. That may be harsh of me, but I don't think so.


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Jeff, I go back to 1993 with BIAB and only a year earlier with Encore notation, so those old methods are pretty ingrained, but they still work for me. I don’t think mouse notation entry in BIAB has changed much.

Gordon, yes, one time when I was writing for a symphony orchestra, my wrist became somewhat inflamed by so much mouse use. I then developed pretty good skill using it with my other hand for awhile. I don’t play keyboard.


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Jeff, I go back to 1993 with BIAB and only a year earlier with Encore notation, so those old methods are pretty ingrained, but they still work for me. I don’t think mouse notation entry in BIAB has changed much.
Matt, my reply was purely about navigating (zoom, scroll and pan)
I have no opinion about the editing in Notation view.
I will test now:
1) a little laggy
2) do not like pop up warning all the time.
3) Note duration very mysterious, no tool bar of duration, I figure out it look like it was assuming whole note or two half note s and rewrote if you added more not to show the difference. I then remember I had gotten lost before and gave up and went back to Notion.

Are there good videos on how to use it?


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Gordon, yes, one time when I was writing for a symphony orchestra, my wrist became somewhat inflamed by so much mouse use.
Perhaps I should assure that it wasn't BiaB that caused my injury ... that dates from a large report I wrote in the "company standard" wordprocessor that ultimately proved unsuitable, then intensively copy+pasted the whole thing into another that "was acceptable" to find similar problems, and then again into LaTeX which finally allowed me properly to manage section/paragraph numbering and revisions. I worked through the pain ...and I've had to do so occasionally ever since.


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Jeff, got it. But I LIKE that there is no 'tool of duration', assuming you are just entering notes in linear order. That's why it's only one mouse action per note. Even if it isn't, it's easy enough to Edit the note parameters.

Gordon, I urge you NOT to work through the pain. Find another answer. And like you, it wasn't BIAB that ever caused me any wrist trouble. In fact, related to what Jeff mentioned, it was the 'pick a note, then place a note' in my notation software that got me.

Any of you who visited Don Gaynor, I sent him my trackball.


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Gordon, I urge you NOT to work through the pain.
I generally don't now, but when I had a day job there were times when I had little choice if I were to get the work done. Some tools offer no option than using a mouse. Trying to avoid the pain with those tools was why I became pretty ambidextrous with mouse, vertical mouse, trackball and thumb-trackball and why I often wore a wrist brace. Fortunately I can now just avoid most of those. If it starts to hurt now, normally I curse and stop.

I agree 100% with your statement.
If a mouse is causing pain, do not work through it ... it will likely cause long term damage,


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Good point Matt - I agree, the notation entry in Band-in-a-Box can be much quicker because you don't have to select the note duration. It does have some drawbacks but I prefer the way it works over other notation software and I'm not sure it would be beneficial to change it. Also a good point about navigation within the notation window - I agree it is awkward.


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Originally Posted by Andrew - PG Music
Good point Matt - I agree, the notation entry in Band-in-a-Box can be much quicker because you don't have to select the note duration. It does have some drawbacks but I prefer the way it works over other notation software and I'm not sure it would be beneficial to change it. Also a good point about navigation within the notation window - I agree it is awkward.
Andrew, there is no mouse or arrow key zoom pan or scroll. It should be identical to all other views. (In fact all should be the same)
I cannot figure out how to enter a whole note or half note?
How do I loop a few bars to see if the rhythm and notes are right?
More videos on how to enter any duration or rest with the current algorithm would be good,


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Top 5 according to AI:

1. **Consistency in Pan, Zoom, and Scroll**:
- **Why?** Users want the Notation view to match the other views in terms of navigation. Consistent navigation tools improve user experience by making it intuitive and seamless to switch between views.

2. **Linear One-Line View**:
- **Why?** Implementing a linear one-line view with a consistent timeline across all views would make it easier to follow the notation and maintain the same timeline structure throughout the application. This coherence is essential for users to track changes and understand the flow of the music.

3. **Loop Bar in Timeline**:
- **Why?** Adding a loop bar in the timeline, similar to other views, allows users to practice and review specific sections of their music more effectively. This feature enhances usability and control during playback, helping users focus on particular parts of their compositions.

4. **Toolbar for Tools**:
- **Why?** A toolbar for tools like a pencil to modify note durations and other advanced notation tools would streamline the editing process. This would make it easier for users to create and edit music, reducing the need for cumbersome menus and speeding up their workflow.

5. **Maintaining Staff Roll Notation Mode**:
- **Why?** The Staff Roll Notation mode is highly valued for its convenience and efficiency. The blue horizontal and vertical lines for controlling note length and velocity are user-friendly and make the note-entry process faster. Users appreciate this mode for its simplicity and effectiveness.

These suggestions highlight the need for a more consistent, user-friendly, and efficient Notation view, aligning with modern standards and user expectations.


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I am interested in entering notation for a self-recorded artist track for bass guitar, but I want TAB and not standard notation. Since I do not read standard notation especially for the bass clef, I discovered that the only way to enter notes in the combo regular notation/TAB view for a bass guitar, is to enter the note on the standard notation staff and then the TAB notation will show up, created by BB (and not always correct). BUT it cannot be done the other way, that is, enter the TAB numeral on the correct string and have the standard note show up. I would be happy just to have TAB that is enter-able, but PG chat tells me "nope"

REQUEST: in notation view allow direct entry of TAB rather than requiring entry to be in standard notation only.

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If I may, here's an old wish that I will resurrect:

In the Editable Notation Mode, make the Rest checkbox sticky and make it work on Notes and Rests both.

Full disclosure: Peter and I did discuss this perhaps two decades ago, and he considered it but chose to keep it the way it is.

Explanation:

To delete a note now, you have to take two steps: right-click, select Delete. How about a checkbox so you can click on a note to delete it? That would make editing a song quicker; just scroll through the song linearly and click to delete any note you wish.

However, even this two-step method does not work with rests. You cannot right-click on a rest. To erase a rest, I think you have to go through a bunch of steps:
Melody menu
Edit Melody
Step-Edit Melody
scroll to the Event that has the rest
click Delete
click Close

Let's have the checkbox for rests work for inserting or deleting a rest, and make the checkbox a sticky.

Bonus points for anyone who knows the un-intuitive key to hold down to delete more than one rest in a row, and can find this answer in less than two minutes. Yes, there is an answer.


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In Cubase Notation (the old one before Dorico), we have display quantize. This can either display or hide rests and it can express notes at certain levels. For example it is common to display quantize to 8ths. If the actaul performace has a bit of a groove then the 16th notes are not expressed in the score. Ths reduces eye clutter in a musical way. At no time is the actual MIDI altered, only the display. So often we open the score editor of BIAB and find unreadab;le notation, this would be a significant help.

Z


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That’s an interesting suggestion.

The problem you describe in BIAB can occur when you have straight eighths in a swing style, or swung eighth notes in an even style.


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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
... display quantize to 8ths. If the actaul performace has a bit of a groove then the 16th notes are not expressed in the score.
BiaB already does that, though as Matt says, there may be an even/swing mismatch causing a readability issue.

I found out about display quantizing when BiaB was dropping rests from a score.
One can turn it on or off.: Forum post


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Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!

Special offers until December 31st, 2025!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!

Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.

Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!

Special offers until December 31st, 2025!

All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!

Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!

Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!

Special offers until December 31st, 2025!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

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