PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists RealBand Wishlist Where Can RealBand Go From Here

I used to love RealBand many years ago as a DAW that could generate up session musicians.
A lot of people say forget about it, abandon it as software, then there are others that use it all the time.
Could anything be done with RealBand other than yearly tweaks ?
Is it modern enough to attract a new younger audience ?
Should non destructive editing be added so it works like other DAWs and you don't get massive SEQ files, it generate way quicker ?
Should a Mac version be made for it (though PG does already have to spend an extra 6 months to make the Biab Mac version).
Is this all too hard and not worth it ?
Is it destined to be just replaced by the BB Plugin ?

Look at it as though you are from another modern top software company and you just bought PG,
where can RealBand go from here ?

MC, i feel that RB has come a long way in the last three years. it is much faster than ever and has some nice new tools. That said:

1. nondestructive editing is vital for the future.

2. Fully embracing FLAC files.

3. Completing the VST3 upgrade. make adding a VST not a disjointed process

4. Replace the old style picker with the new Multipicker. cleans up a lot of menu items.

5. replace the old multiriff system with the new Multiriff system. same as above

6. add bar based lyric entry like BB. enhances the chord sheet architecture

7. Make the node automation a right click and eliminate drop down box. Cleans up the tracks view expanded.

8. Timeline visual for tempo and meter changes.

9. one step close to a clean GUI ( the hide unused tracks and FX channels was a big step) finish this by turning the main output into a true master channel, and only add FX channel strips when needed by right click same with tracks.

10. related to 9. get rid of the 4 fx sends and add typical DAW style sends when FX are added to a channel strip

ive made many recommendations to pg over a looong time.
pg are well aware of my opinions...as ive said done right rb could be a market slayer.
so i'm not gonna retype pages. (good ideas mcity/Rob...).

i think the ball is in pg's court.
will the features continue the yearly 'trickle' or will they take a full
steam ahead aggressive development stance ??

viva la rb...lol.
btw i looked up rb/ptw user ROG's web site.
great examples of what one is able to achieve with rb//ptw.
if your reading this ROG...your a blinking genius.
huge kudos to you.
if you dont mind if anyone knocks rb...lol...
i'm gonna point them to your catalog of work.
well done Professor. highly impressed.

om.

I can can script all those functions in Reaper that RealBand has now or needs adding, I can make a Theme so it looks just like RealBand.

You can make Reaper look and function the same as Pro Tools with all the same shortcut keys, so the same can be done for RealBand, allowing any layout/toolbar/menus you like, this way if a function is needed at anytime it can be just scripted and uploaded in a few days.
The generate time will be instant and it would also open frozen Biab SGU files in an instant giving you the same track section riffs as in Biab, and being able to change any guitar to/from Direct Input <> FX keeping the same riffs.
This way it will give Mac users 'RealBand'

Hey, what can I say? You're just too generous with your complements!
The trick is to remember what recording was like on tape, back in the four-track days with an old mixer and limited effects - all of a sudden Realband is like all your dreams have come true. In truth, Realband and Powertracks are brilliant and what we keep asking for are just minor improvements to an already great package. Yes, there are a few niggles, but show me some software which is free of any.

As to the future, I think that if PG want a mass market DAW, then they should drop the auto-accompaniment tag which puts-off a lot of musicians and just give Powertracks the ability to generate realtracks. A virtual room of session musicians wouldn't be seen as cheating and Powertracks is the equal of any DAW I've ever used as far as tracking and editing is concerned. TBH, I now mix in Harrison Mixbus 10 Pro and just bring the stems over from PT/RB. Anyway, I see lots changing this year as Ai develops further, so let's wait and see....

ROG.

"TBH, I now mix in Harrison Mixbus 10 Pro"
Ardour/Mixbus has Lua scripting same as Reaper. The BB Plugin integrates with Reaper using the API scripting.
The same could be done with Ardour/Mixbus though it does not support wma but supports wav/flac RealTrack/Drums source files non destructively allowing far superior editing than rendered consolidated wav files.

ROG.

ive recorded in everything from big commercial studios down to those likkle 4 tracks and thus i know you deserve the kudos.
ive recorded with talent way more capable than i .

i really wish more rb users would post their successes with rb rather than a few users like you and rob and i and others because if thry DID maybe pg would develope rb more aggressively....and we all be winners.

as you correctly said rb doesnt need a lot...imho it needs some targeted upgrades.
fyi im testing out right now a well known daw and used by lots of
people around the world. yes its a nice daw...but i keep on coming back to rb.
as your aware any music app has its plusses and minuses.


happiness and respect.

om

MC i see what you are doing here, and i so appreciate the thoughts, but this is an RB Wishlist not a Reaper Wishlist. It is so cool you can create really nice scripted things for Reaper and make them mimic just about any other program. I also know you many time use Reaper as an example of what to do with PGM products. It does at times help. I just think that it is the right thing to do to help PGM focus on developing RB. That is why they offer these Wishlist forums. No Offense meant at all. Just keeping it real here. Let's discuss RB wishes here and Reaper on the Reaper forum.

I don't think anyone has been more dedicated and pushed for improvement for RealBand more than me, whether as musocity, solidrock or pipeline.
It's easy to post wishes and they all seem good what's posted above but these days I tend to focus more on the actual reality as to why it has not gone ahead where it should of, I try to work out ways and solutions to the issue, not just for Win users but Mac also.
As we see now in the Biab wishlist forum PG is asking for ideas and suggestions, there are so many good ideas suggested, but they are nothing new and have been asked for year n years ago by me or other users, but why is PG doing this now ?
They only thing I can see is maybe, just maybe they are looking at a total crossplatform re-write to modernize things, else all this would of been done long ago with the Delphi. Maybe now we have AI code translators it is more easy for them ??

I made a website dedicated to RealBand promotion, who knows more about wishlists.
With all the time and effort I have put into things I think I deserve the right to post information for other users in an honest way.
I posted so much info and demos on direct play/instant gen for the Plugin (using Reaper), one must look deeper at the Plugin now to see the potential. I had virtually ZERO support when posting all the info yet here we are, a quantum leap that users did not think can be done or they could not understand what on earth I was posting.
I don't work for PG and have to be tied to loyalty, but I do promote their products in an honest way.
Some users could be very thankful for the ideas and information I post, now or years later.
I had no clue when I came here in 2009, I had to force myself to find better ways and learn new things, not being a musician but a technician.

if one notices....us hard core rb users often started off with ptw....and were actually happy to rtfm...lol.

in my case i had sometimes used commercial studios large and small...augmented by a cheap home tasc 8 track for example...

so as ROG perceptively said when we got ptw and/or rb we were in creation heaven. a major studio to build and/or use costs money that most of us will never have.
ive been in some absolutely lovely studios which i drooled over...lol....and i have to say i had great experiences...great people who often asked for nothing to help a poor muso.

in those days the studios had typically 2 inch 24 track mtrs which alone were very costly. eg a house mortgage.
so one can see when i got ptw and then rb for burger money i was gobsmacked creating songs.

so i cant see why some knock rb or ptw.
to quote Rob i agree its lack of familiarity and prolly because today people often want instant everything....includeing a hit.
but anyone whose been thru the creation process knows its a LOT of work..same as gold hits years ago in big studios.

in summary often people just dont want to rtfm or put in the effort....otoh some hard core people like us here will put in the work.

frankly i think...given...new people are often impressed by flash...
that rb could get rid off the old win like windows....and not go hog wild on flash but subtle graphics upgrades.
i would say this is priority one.

what is interesting is ive tried various daws this year and frankly
found rb easier to navigate.... too much flash i find too distracting from the core mission of creating a darn song.
i like to work fast when a song idea hits and the ideas are flowing like niagara.

priority two imho should be getting the generation times as fast as possible. cos people just dont wanna wait even for a short time.
which is why i work with midi when starting a song cos genning midi tracks is instant.

happiness.

om

MC you are right about your long time support to PGM, and that you have floated many good ideas over the years. Some i totally agree with some i do not but hey we all have preferences. RB like JAOM said is better than folks give it credit for. It has also been updated recently in many areas. If i have not said so I'll say it now thank you for your hard work in making many user work around over the years you certainly have a talent for script development. I have to admit i have not used many of them but that is because i just have having to tie a bunch of different things together to get where i am trying to go. That is just me not a reflection on your work.

One area you post a lot about is getting instantaneous generation like the Reaper features in the plugin. Personally i do not care that much about that because i just don't use the instructions i prefer wave files to work with. It seems i end up doing things twice if i use the instructions. I will say it is a great idea just not one i use much. I get your point about filling up the hard drive with wave files so i try to use external hard drive to store material. i do feel using flac going forward is a great idea. and will also accomplish what you suggest to a point. Back to the fast generation, i think it is so much faster now it is much better. I do not mind a 15 second generation to create a song.

Anyway, whatever way they go with BiaB judging by the new threads i do not expect RB to be a huge project. I just expect a few well-chosen upgrades. Maybe some of your long-requested items will make it. It will be fun to see what happens Peace and happiness to you. Can i call you Musolinesolidcitypiperock now?

"I have to admit i have not used many of them but that is because i just have having to tie a bunch of different things together to get where i am trying to go."
"Mac mini with 16 gig of ram"
Using consolidated wav files it very limiting but with the section data you can extend any section like in a soloist to blend one riff into the next without the gaps as each section contains the whole source file as it's using non destructive editing. Why create wav files of the same files you already have in your RealTracks folder ?
These things you will only see by actually trying, I think that is the main fear users have is fear of the unknown and they would rather stay safe with what they know and have been accustom to doing for so long even if it's a long winded way. Look at the track view now in Biab it allows direct section data editing though it is very basic and limited it does allow this though how many have even tried this. It's like cow paths they never venture of the same path, they are well worn.
The day the Plugin was first released it served no purpose at all as it was quicker just to drag tracks from Biab into your DAW.

How do you do things on your Mac without RealBand ?


Now I showed this direct play arranger using Reaper and Biab track data long before Ketron released it, I asked PG to act on this as there would be a keyboard arranger coming out with Real Tracks, but Ketron acted but not PG, many here said it would not work without even trying it, again fear of the unknown, stay safe with what we know, a well worn path. When I was away last year for a long time DeconBlue09 was asking in the Plugin forum about the Reaper scripts but no one at all could help him.

there is one major concern i have if i dont save the wave files.

let me give a scenario example.
sometimes ive genned tracks in rb and then d n d into reaps.

so i now have the reaps project and save the rpp with all the genned wavs as well as ones ive done myself...so lets say i have
30 tracks in the song saved.

BUT... and heres the concern i have if i dont have the wavs and just hook up reaps via scripting direct with pg content then what about the future ? lets say in a couple of years i want to come back snd update the song and there is some type of glitch then
i might be sol.....


my other comment is right now if i want i can just back up the rpp plus rb seq to multiple cheap ssd which are dirt cheap.

in summary i want the insurance that haveing the original wavs give me. maybei im too back up crazy...lol..

anyway i seldom use reaps these days due to rb improvements.
i can now just do majority of song creation in rb tracks view due
to rb improvements.

i will comment on one thing....i i feel in the past rb should have been more aggressively developed....
it IS however becoming highly interesting now and does things i still havent seen in other music apps.

ps re stem splitter...loving it in rb...just wish it had more tracks
splitting capability...


happiness and respect..

om

I think the threat to Realband won't be from another DAW. Anyone who has played with SUNO for any length of time can't fail to be impressed by the quality, so how long will it be before you can input a chord sequence into SUNO? This then becomes, essentially, BiaB with Ai tracks instead of realtracks. There's no doubt that the realtracks are good, but they have their problems - often on a guitar rhythm track, the guitar will use a chord inversion which isn't the one a live player would use. Similarly, lead instrument solos can end up with progressions which are not logical, because they've been welded together without reference to continuity. This doesn't happen with Ai. The next step is likely to be something which looks like Realband, but with regenerating Ai tracks. Let's hope PG does it before SUNO. The stem splitter shows that PG is heading in the right direction, but I'm not sure how much catching up they have to do.

You always have RealTracks folders, if you loose them due to hard drive fail you just get a replacement.
It's the same deal saving an SGU "Frozen" there are no wav files just section data info.
How do you change a rendered wav FX guitar to Direct Input keeping the same riffs if you want your own FX in the current project ?
How do you change the rendered wav stereo drum track to stems keeping all the same sections ?
You can render sections track anytime to wav/flac but still keep the original sections.

RealBand to NDE (non destructive editing) will save the RealTracks/Drum to WAV/FLAC/WMA instruction data only (no HD space).
If any improvements are made to RealBand, NDE would be the biggest and best move by far.
The BB Plugin now works like this, NO WAVs and instant Gen, even midi only styles are instant as there is no rending down to wav. So it just calls on bbw4_64.exe to generate up just the track data and plays that back direct as in the above Ketron pic, RealBand on the other hand calls on bbw2_64.exe to generate up and render down to consolidated wav.
I don't know why on earth the Delphi generate code from Biab was not put into RealBand's Delphi code rather than having bbw2 in the background, in the first place ??????

RE SUNO, that's why I said about Logic and now for iPad, it has a chord track and AI instruments, I said PG need to get their finger out and see the writing on the wall.

MCity you make a strong point. You see this from a technical standpoint. i come from a musician's view. Playing direct from disk does little for me unless all I want to do is playback tracks. I want to record and export music. this requires either compresses material for streaming, or wave file for shared things like CDs and such. If all i wanted to do is play direct from disc you would be 100% right. I want to share the tracks to other people and other media. This requires it leave my computer. Direct from the RT folder does not come into play unless during the production phase.

That said until it leaves the computer your methods are rock solid (see what i did there?!?! Rock Solid ... Solid Rock ... eh never mind) So yes, your ideas are welcome and needed. Just try to remember not everyone is using these programs like you do. So there are other options for development than what either you or I or JAOM, or RustyMisha, or Jeff, or ROG, or well i think we all get the point. Let's keep offering ideas and certainly be tolerant of other views. I do believe we are going to see some bigger things happen now.

Oh yes the Mac question, I don't really use the Mac much anymore it is an older unit and while it still runs smoothly many things don't update anymore. Most of my work is done on my Win 11 laptop

"Oh yes the Mac question, I don't really use the Mac much anymore it is an older unit and while it still runs smoothly many things don't update anymore. Most of my work is done on my Win 11 laptop"
Yes I gave up on mac also as they changed it every 5 mins then you needed a new version of the app for each new OS version.

You have got Open Core that will allow you to update the OS even on old macs or install Mac on you Win PC.
https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/

I appreciate the link but I really don’t want to try to jailbreak my Mac and risk jacking it up

You can backup Macs to another drive or Time Machine.

This is RealBand with bbw2 creating wav files then RB reading them from the temp, when it could be just reading the wav instruction and playing them from the RealTracks folders:



This is how it could work playing direct from the RealTracks folders, as I said this is the single best improvement:

If I drag the RealBand temp files into Reaper they are all in mono. So Reaper is just loading the source flac sections as written in the frozen Biab SGU.
The only reason I do all this with Reaper is it lets me script whatever I want, if I had the RB source Delphi and could program it I would do it now for you and upload it, whatever you want, believe me I'm not trying to force you to use Reaper. If I could do the same with Studio One, MixBus Ardour I would. I used Adobe Audition for all my mixing, I loved it but I could not program it to integrate with Biab. I had to venture out of my safe zone and try new things, that's how new ideas and innovations come around. You need to take some risks to tackle the fear of the unknown, with that grows understanding.
I made up an AutoHotKey script for someone with a laptop that could not scroll, I spent time and effort with it to help but they said they were too old to double click to run a script but had no problem using Biab.

I get it quicker in the Plugin without wav rendering than RealBand, so NDE should help RealBand immensely.

MCity, nice demo, really 19 seconds verses 12 seconds. Not really a huge deal to me. You are dead right that NDE would be a great upgrade for RB. Still, many of the things you are suggesting while super cool are simply techie ideas. I am not saying they are wrong and that we should not ask for them but i don't think you see this from musician's viewpoint. Most of us are creating either songs to share or backing tracks to play with either with friends or live. 7 extra seconds to generate is not that bad. Most of us want wave files so that is not a big deal either. Most of us are very busy and having to cobble together scripts and third-party solutions is likely a no go. Me personally volunteer two days a week for a nonprofit, run a personal business three days a week, have numerous family and personal responsibilities to handle. Music is a beloved hobby and an occasional live show with a friend or two. Sometime the wife and I write and record a few songs for recreation. I just don't have time to fuss with extra pieces to make things work as you do. I also see that is why you keep pushing at PGM to incorporate these ideas. Just remember they are the only one who know what their long-term objectives are and what it takes to do these things.

I admire your effort, and the things you do for others. I sometimes wish you could see that there many different paths here and not everyone uses the software as you do. Speed while nice i like workflow enhancements better. Cleaner tool bars and menus, less clutter. enhanced processes. I am happy with RB as it is but would be super happy if it got a little more love. So having said that i do encourage you to keep on helping and offering solutions, just with a friendly word of caution, one i shared with a couple others recently. Don't get so caught up that you lose sight of the big picture here. This is for fun and recreation, and for a select few how they make their living. Do not let the journey wear you down. Enjoy the ride and the tools and do some real work. Make some music to share or enjoy. Smell the roses my friend. I guess what i am really trying to say is don't take it personal if PXGM does not chose to do what you ask them too, or that others see a different path. Offer what you feel is fair and then be at peace with it. Best to you and let's all see what comes out of this interesting dialog with PGM that just started.

Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor

You have the above, they are all modern and non destructive like everything else is these days including Audacity now.
You don't go to their forums and ask them to devolution them to the 90's.
I'm only trying to bring PG into the modern age, looking at every other audio application this is what they all aim for and are designed for and used how I describe, in studio use you need it to be quick, ease of use for creativity flow, they are not all designed for just the home hobbyist that you can be laxed and get away with half baked things.
I don't see this from a musician's viewpoint as the musicians are the ones in the RealTracks and those in the studio hire musicians, sure if everyone was a musician and wanted auto-accompaniment for practice or learning, Biab was originally designed for this and we would not need DAW features and improvements, that seems to be where it's going now. If you work only with wav files as you say then Biab has had a DROP render to WAV for ages.
Reaper with it's scripting has a massive following, one of the biggest forums on the net, using scripts is a normal everyday thing, everyone thinks I'm saying use Reaper instead of PG products, if that's the case why do I spend so much time here trying to make the PG products better by learning from Reaper. I want the same for Mac users, I don't ignore them and just concentrate on Windows only.
I don't give PG ideas that are impossible for them to do, they are just industry standard things that the apps you have listed above use, same with Win 10 has got to be better than WinXP. They don't have to be years n years behind all the time with everything, they can be up there with all others, it's not something that's impossible as I show these things over n over.

Okay so here is the question. I see the things you show and yes they all have merit. Getting them to work by using scripts and third party patches does not necessarily mean PGM can add that to RB. Let's just be real here. RB is not clip based in it's structure.

Still we do need a few well targeted upgrades. I would love to hear from PGM on this, and since they are asking maybe we can get that answer. I suggest we make a list of the 5 best upgrades that will make RB closer to the DAW it should be. Lets start with the obvious one you suggested and i will add 4 more then if you add your top 5 maybe we can get PGM (Andrew and Jeff Y Maybe Peter ) to respond and let us know what is possible.
No sense beating our heads against the wall making susggestions if the plan is set in stone to add a couple small upgrades each year and not address the bigger ones. I know you know what i mean.

1. Non Destructive Editing - in the tracks view with modern tools to copy paste, cut, split, etc. Without having to open a audio edit window.
2. Timeline visual for both tempo changes and Meter map changes
3. True master Channel instead of a main output. This needs to have the ability to add mastering Effects for final mixdown.
also needs to clean up the extra outputs and make them right click adds not there by default
same applies to the FX channels and or group channels. These should not be there unless you right click and add a channel.
sends should be added as needed above the track strip.
4. Combining the drop down list in the automation area into the right click menu.
5. Clean up the graphic and give RB a modern look. The new views and tool bar options are a good start.

"Getting them to work by using scripts and third party patches does not necessarily mean PGM can add that to RB. Let's just be real here.RB is not clip based in it's structure"

If this is what you mean by clip based it's the same way I showed from [R*****], same with the new Tracks View this can be copy and pasted from the Biab code into RealBand code, but it needs a bit of improvement with a drag up/down volume, fade drags, and to be able to copy to a new track that will allow building of any drum track you like as each clip has the whole Drum source file. You can't do this with consolidated wav files, you can't change a consolidated wav file from/to DI<>FX:

Agreed completely

Then you see something like this:
Look at the GUI pics Cerio posted what if you just had an all in one "Band in a RealBand Box" VST and Standalone.