so after all these years, BB still inserts dim7 chords when I -only- write dim, presuming them to be the same. They are NOT, anybody who studied tonal harmony properly knows that. Try this progression, a circle of fifths:
Cm, Fm, Bb, Ab, Ddim, G
all sounds well, IF the Ddim is played as a diminished triad, spelled D,F,Ab. Now play Ddim7 (D,F,Ab,Cb) and hear how ugly the Cb sounds. And yeah, in the case of a dim7 chord here, it's called Cb, not B.
Dim7 chords require proper handling, and they often introduce notes that are outside the key. In this case it sounds bad although all the notes are diatonic. But the Cb makes an augmented second with Ab, which is why it sounds really corny.
And yeah, in jazz no one would probably care. But not everybody cares about playing jazz, either. If you stick that chord in a pop song with the Cb, it will stand out like a pickle in your cornflakes. That is, badly. The right place for a dim7 chords in the key of Cmin is Bdim7. Nowhere else, unless you are modulating.
Triads are triads, seventh chords are seventh chords. They are not always interchangeable.
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so after all these years, BB still inserts dim7 chords when I -only- write dim, presuming them to be the same.
A few years ago, PG Music added dim chords. There is a setting in Display Options that will enter a diminished triad if you type Xdim. By default, BIAB does interpret dim as the diminished seventh chord unless told otherwise. Without changing the display options, it's possible to access the dim triad by using dim5.
I stopped using dim for dim7 about 25 years ago when the keyboard player in my church band complained. Nowadays, I use dim5 for diminished and dim7 or °7 to end the confusion. Broadway show books still use ° which is fine with me.
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As a 'less talented' guitarist, I learned to play Bdim as per the attached - but it has an Ab/G# in it i.e. B, D, F, Ab - what is the true name of that? Is that the dim7? Then a few years after, I found out there was a chord called Bm7b5 (B, D, F, A) (attached) which sounds slightly less confrontational. Andrew
A few years ago, PG Music added dim chords. There is a setting in Display Options that will enter a diminished triad if you type Xdim. By default, BIAB does interpret dim as the diminished seventh chord unless told otherwise. Without changing the display options, it's possible to access the dim triad by using dim5.
Hi Noel! I see that is under 'Display Options' for the chord window, and wondered if it actually makes a difference to the generated chord or purely for display. I selected the setting in Display Options and input the following chords Bdim Bdim7 Bdim Bdim7 and found that it is purely a display - see attached - the G# is present in each bar. Does anyone know a way of forcing BIAB to omit the 7th? Andrew
As a 'less talented' guitarist, I learned to play Bdim as per the attached - but it has an Ab/G# in it i.e. B, D, F, Ab - what is the true name of that? Is that the dim7? Then a few years after, I found out there was a chord called Bm7b5 (B, D, F, A) (attached) which sounds slightly less confrontational. Andrew
These are respectively the diminished (sometimes for clarity fully-diminished) and the half-diminished. The former usually indicated by the 'degrees' symbol, the latter by a similar symbol with a diagonal line through or by the m7b5 form. In the former, the 7 is doubly flattened relative the Maj7, in the latter singly flattened. (e.g. A#->A->G#)
For just the triad, people often write the ordinary 'degrees' symbol, which is OK for the triad, but can be misleading if one is using 7ths in voice leading.
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As I read the question, I was thinking this person doesn’t know about the checkbox. Noel revealed that solution. I recall it may have been more than a ‘few’ years ago, but the feature was added at our request.
This thread is another good illustration about how the forum sometimes works. There are two approaches one could take. The first is to lecture us about music theory and point out how BIAB doesn’t do something. The second is to go to the main BIAB forum for Windows or for Mac, and ask if there is a way to fix this problem. We are very likely to have seen it or discussed it before. If it’s a missing feature, we suggest a post in the Wishlist forum. If it’s a bug, we can report it the the developers.
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Andrew, tell us more. You wrote "... I selected the setting in Display Options and input the following chords Bdim Bdim7 Bdim Bdim7 and found that it is purely a display - see attached - the G# is present in each bar. Does anyone know a way of forcing BIAB to omit the 7th?"
I just tried the same experiment and at first got the same result - no difference - but then I selected a Classical style and it obeyed the difference. What style / genre are you using?
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Andrew, tell us more. You wrote "... I selected the setting in Display Options and input the following chords Bdim Bdim7 Bdim Bdim7 and found that it is purely a display - see attached - the G# is present in each bar. Does anyone know a way of forcing BIAB to omit the 7th?"
I just tried the same experiment and at first got the same result - no difference - but then I selected a Classical style and it obeyed the difference. What style / genre are you using?
And there we go. Style dependent… who knew? Something to note and send to Support. Perhaps this can be corrected for the Styles that don’t behave..
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Maybe. I’m not ready to draw any conclusions yet, based on that one very limited experiment. I think there are styles that simply don’t play 7ths. Notes Norton would know better. And there are a bunch of options I’ve written about in Tips and Tricks.
And it might be sunspots - coincidence. Or in my case, a dead short between the chair and the keyboard.
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This, along with several other issues, is why I prefer MIDI. One note off, move it. BIAB is a complex piece of software that occasionally requires explanation from long-term users. As mentioned in another thread, standard notation is not always "standard". It is highly likely that questions about almost any issue can be solved through a workaround by the many people here who are familiar with the program.
Many users of this software have acquired other software programs to circumvent some of the issues. A considerable number of things can be done in BIAB. One note, even in an audio track, can be changed in pitch if needed.
The inevitable learning curve for this program will likely be frustrating for many people. Things are considerly better now than when we had to use floppy disk to load the program...lol
This, along with several other issues, is why I prefer MIDI. One note off, move it...Billy
Not for everyone, but I use Melodyne Studio to edit RealTracks very similarly to MIDI. I only infrequently even try a track regeneration, because "wrong" chords and reharmonzations are so easily addressed with Melodyne.
I'll agree with any argument that Melodyne shouldn't be necessary. But I can't unscramble that egg for me...
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Thanks for the image. It helped a lot. I tried the _DAPPER style. After setting the Display Option to show 'dim' as the diminished triad, I received the same result as you. To me, this suggests that: (a) it's style related as Matt suggested; (b) the performer of the Realtrack 1662 did not play a diminished triad and so the 'dim' chord was mapped by PG Music as dim7; (c) PG Music did not map the dim triad separately.
RT 1662 is from set 147 which was released in 2011. I've checked back through the User Manuals and the diminished triad was introduced mid-year in 2012. This information means that when RT 1662 was recorded, the musician involved (Mike LeDonne) would have only been asked to play diminished seventh chords because in 2011, the diminished triad was not part of BIAB's repertoire of chords. Regarding Realtracks that were created after 2012.5, I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) will contain a diminished triad.
How to fix your issue with dim chords...
There is a setting called "Autofix sour notes". If this is activated for RT 1662, and instructed to fix notes according to the chord symbol, then after the track is generated, BIAB will process the track and tune any notes that are not part of the chord so that they become part of the chord.
The lower image below shows where the Autofix Sour Notes option is found. When I used this option, the diminished triads were corrected.
I agree with Matt. Excellent detective work Noel, and perfectly explained. Thank you for that.
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... The lower image below shows where the Autofix Sour Notes option is found. When I used this option, the diminished triads were corrected. Regards, --Noel
As others have said - fantastic research Noel, and thanks for the solution! I have been aware of the 'sour notes' option but have never used it and didn't think of its application in this situation. There's so much flexibility in BIAB! And thanks to Matt's comment as well - apologies I didn't respond sooner, but being in GMT+9:30, it can sometimes take 36 hours before I see other posts - but in this case, it sounds like my tardiness allowed more informed and inquisitive expertise (Noel) to shine. Andrew D
I've just acquired Melodyne Studio. A video demonstrating how you use it with real tracks would be a great addition as Melodyne has been offered as a $99 upgrade from time to time. I use it (or will) for harmonising my vocals and fixing pitch etc.
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