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In RB you use the event list to 'insert' a program change. This allows you to set the MIDI channel and program number (patch number) that will be assigned to the Roland. This can be done using GUI with the PAT file, as you have done also. When you say they don't 'stick' that is where I am getting the idea that another program change command is in the file and changing it. Otherwise nothing compels the Roland to change the patches or programs. If indeed you do have sysex information being used, this could, theoretically be the issue. Are you using sysex, or assuming that this is how the patch change messages work? You'll likely not be able to find the drum patch changes in the PAT file, since they are all on channel 10. We handle that by using a patch change number on MIDI channel 10. Basic drumsets in the GM setup are listed here at the bottom of the page- http://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_gm.htmTo use other drums from that synth you will need to know the bank and program numbers, which will be in the manual under the MIDI specs section.
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Let see if I can explain a little. I'm a bad typist so I tend to be brief. here goes. First some facts.
1. In the world of MIDI there are 16 channels
2. Your keyboard is 16 part multitimbral . That means it can "listen" to all 16 channels of MIDI separately.Think of it as 16 individual synths inside one box. You can either set these separate synts so that the patches stay the same no matter what info comes into them or you can set them to receive program changes via BIAB. You also set each of these synths to listen on a particular midi channel.
So how to set up your RD700.
1. Set it to respond to program changes in multi timbral mode.
2. Set each of these "parts" to receive on a different midi channel. I'd just have part 1 to receive on 1, Part 2 to receive on 2 etc.
Now when you do a song in BIAB the patches you select for each instrument will be interpreted by your RD700 and assign the appropriate patch.
BTW BIAB in it's default sends out the data on these midi channels channels
Bass=2
Piano=3
Drums=10
Guitar=6
Strings=7
Melody=4
Soloist=8
So when you play a song you should see activity on your keyboard for these channels.
Forget about the .PAT file for now. The RD700 is GM2 complient so to assign instruments all you have to do is click on the little "GM2" button that's just under the word piano.
Digest this and see what happens.
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Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Thanks Robh. So I see where my understanding is severely lacking.
Here is my analysis ... the Roland has banks, and they are either GM banks (presumably default) or some other bank (which my manual shows me how to select)
So for starters, I'm keeping the Roland in default (this is GM I presume, I only need two channels for start -- bass = 2 and drums = 10)
RB comes up with GM by default, and the GM button above the keyboard lets me change patches. Under the Track/Drum/Patchmap I have a note that there is none ... this is empty.
There are no drum patches ... this actually has been my problem all along, as I can't assign any drums to Channel 10 (well, vibes or wood blocks, but not real drums). The Roland has default drum kits on Channel 10, but there seems to be no way to get to these.
On the Roland, the drums on MIDI channel 10 come out as piano (the default for most of the channels)
I presume 'Omni' means that channel X on the sequencer controls Channel X patch on the Roland?? The Roland manual doesn't make any references to 'omni' ... is it possible this is called something else?
Do you see anything obvious that I am doing wrong? I wanted to use the RD700 patch (of a .DK file) because that is how I thought I could get a set of drums.
Chris
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Couple of thoughts.
Did you load the .PAT file as shown earlier?
Does your Roland have a setting for something like "performance mode" as opposed to "patch mode"? Set it to performance mode. At least, that is what I have to do on my Roland Fantom. Otherwise, it cannot act as a polyphonic synth; it only sounds like one thing at a time. Look in your manual for something like "Using the Roland as an external synth".
Your Roland supports GM2. Try that, as follows:
In BIAB, go to Options, MIDI/Audio Driver Setup. Make sure your Roland is your MIDI Output device. On the Synth/Sound Card pull-down, what do you have there? The RD700 is not a choice on my system; try Roland Sound Canvas. If that doesn't work, try General MIDI Instrument. On the GM2 pulldown, select choice 2, GM2. Make sure DXi is unchecked.
Now, back in BIAB, on the GM menu, try some different settings under Send MIDI Message. Try "Send General MIDI Mode On and BB Patches", and "Auto Send GM Mode on Startup",
Also, make sure you are NOT sending any Roland GS messages.
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Chris, you're still not telling us any details of your setup. I want to know what your PC is, CPU, RAM, OS. I want to know what you're using for audio and from within Biab and RB, exactly what you have selected in the midi output windows. That's for your PC. On the Roland, exactly what mode is displayed in the window? To simply get the basic GM patches playing with a keyboard that has a GM soundbank takes like 30 seconds to set up. The drums are automatic too. Don't worry about other patches for now, just stick to the GM sounds. Oh yeah, you haven't responded to my question about where you got that midi file from either.
I know exactly where you're coming from btw. Several years ago I bought my Kurzweil PC2X. Very similar to your Roland. 88 weighted keys, hundreds of sounds and a manual about an inch thick. I turned it on, hit bank 1, patch 1, grand piano and said cool, good sounding piano. Bank 2, patch 1 is a good Rhodes. I play about 6 or 7 of the patches. Couple of acoustic and electric pianos, organ, strings, occasionally a solo flute or steel drums. Never opened the manual, just played the basic patches for the last 6 years. That's maybe 10% of it's capabilities. I never tried to use it with my computer because I don't have room to set it up next to my desk, I have tons of softsynths and a Roland Sonic Cell module. If you want to use your keyboard as a sound module, time to crack open that manual and start reading and understanding.
We need more information at this point.
Bob
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Thanks Matt for the feedback. The RD700GX seems to have a default 'performance' mode (they call the modes 16CH and 16Ch+Patch) and GM2.... anyway, there is no problem with getting a multichannel output from the Roland. I don't have an RD700 option on my Opt/MIDI menu, so I have tried several things, including the Roland General MIDI. The basic problem seems the lack of drums ... there just don't seem to be any options to assign drum kits ... it's as if these are somewhere else. In general, the various Synth/Sound Card choices don't include drum kits.
So, I guess the basic unsolved problem I have is that I can get any drums associated with the Drum track (which I have assigned to Ch. 10)
Bob suggested that my computer setup might be a source of problems. I have a two month old Dell Inspirion with an AMD quad-core running 64-bit Win 7 and BiB 2010.5 so performance is up to snuff (almost 8 on the Win scale for calcs; 3.5 for video). The Roland mode is the default ... and I have been going into EDIT and tweaking some paramters, but periodically resetting.
The GM sounds do have drum kits, and these are implemented in the Roland (I have used them). I guess the question is how do I get the Drum Track to play the Roland Drums. There doesn't seem to be any entry on the GM2 menu on BiB for drums.
Crhsi
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I don't know about the drums. Channel 10 is correct. Once Real Drums came out, I never looked at the MIDI drums again, except to manually program in a drum hit or cymbal crash here and there, and the GM kit worked fine for that. As a composer, I found that MIDI drums were too 'perfect' and led me to write songs at a faster tempo than one at which the live drummer would sound good. Real Drums cured that.
Just for fun, double-check Channel 10 in BIAB this way: Opt, Preferences, Channels. Make sure it says '10' after Drums.
While you can easily program .PAT files, and I've made several, the .DK files in the /BB folder are not able to be edited. Perhaps you should inquire of PG Music support about how to get one for your Roland. If you find out, post the answer here please. Most of the .DK files I looked at referenced a Roland MT32, whatever that was.
By the way, I do not suspect your computer has anything to do with this. However, Bob is right to ask for your specs. Sometimes that does give us a clue or becomes invaluable in problem-solving for strange problems that only occur for some people.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Insert a program change on the drum track right at the beginning of the song.
Hard writing a program change will keep it from resetting, as it is sent every time you play the song.
Use channel 10 and send the program number you want to use for the drums.
That is how you change drum kits.
Again, these are listed on page 136 of the Roland manual from drum sets other than the GM drum sets..
For the GM drums, the drum kit program changes are-
Program # / Drum Kit
1 Standard Drum Kit
9 Room Drum Kit
17 Power Drum Kit
25 Electric Drum Kit
26 Rap TR808 Drums
33 Jazz Drum Kit
41 Brush Kit
So inserting a program change on channel 10 for program number 41 will give you brush drum kit.
Last edited by rharv; 10/13/10 08:11 AM.
Make your sound your own!
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I think this is helping me hone in on the problem. Really everything has been working all along, except for the assignment of drums. All of the patch and channel settings are correct, and they seem to be stable (in fact, overall I've found in using the package that BiB is stable ... I haven't had problems with hangups and abnormal terminations in BiB which is good considering it is supporting a variety of files and drivers and ports).
The only problem is that I don't have access to drums. In looking through the various menus (and documentation) for BiB, I get the impression that it is difficult to turn off Realdrums (I've found many places that you have to set to suppress these things ... they are like zombies ... they don't die). And indeed they may be the better choice if you are using a computer as your synth, or mixing everything then sending to a speaker.
I'm using my Roland with headphones, so ... partly for simplicity ... I want everything to run through the Roland synth ... I want just MIDI coming out of the computer.
I've been playing with RealBand to see if it might be easier to get the MIDI to work, but run into the same problems -- there just doesn't seem to be access to the Roland drum kits.
Chris
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Thanks rharv, this is getting me closer. I've found my Roland drum kits on the + button menu next to GM2 right above the keyboard. Setting the PAT to the Roland General Midi (which seems to be their version of GM2) seemed to bring these up. The Roland manual actually has only two pages on using it as a synth (not counting the tone chart), and I think I might have a slightly different version from you, as the page numbers don't correspond. But I see where you are looking.
I've still got to disentangle the various patches going through the BiB Melody track (all of the MIDI channels seem to be going through this) but someone else had suggested that I open up the tracks menu, or use RB instead to sort this. I'll have to search around to see where the Tracks menu is on BiB ... but there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks all
Chris
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Maybe getting there.
1. Keep your keyboard in GM2 mode.
2. Enter some chords
3. Choose a style that is all MIDI. ( first entry in the style list)
4. Put a check next to drums. You'll see the list to the left of the GM2 button say "1 Standard"
5. While the song is playing click the drop down arrow and note that you have a bunch of #s but some have names. The ones with names are the GM drum Kits as Rharv mention above. Click on one of them and you'll see that it changes sound. It should anyway.
If you stop the song and hit play again it'll go back to the standard set as that's what's programmed into the style. If you want to keep those sounds assign them before you hit play and then go to file/save with patches and harmony. After that reload the file you just saved and it'll have the changes you just made.
If you are working with a MIDI file you downloaded to access the inst change menue you need to click on the round,green, SEQ button.The click Sequencer on melody track. There is were you'd change patches.
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John, thanks for the step by step. Unfortunately, I run into problems when I do the pulldown list to the left of GM2 ... there are no drums (there are some percussive things like synth drum and wood block, but no standard or drum kit entries)
The other think is untangling the Melody track ... I have selected 16 part as Melody, but don't see any way to assing the channels to the other instruments ... I'm exceedingly interested in drums and bass, which would be Channels 10 and 2, but I can't find any reference in the manuals to how to do this.
Is there a specific reason for running everything through Melody? It would seem reasonable to have access to MIDI channels right from the start.
Chris
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If you are working with a MIDI file you downloaded to access the inst change menue you need to click on the round,green, SEQ button.The click Sequencer on melody track. There is were you'd change patches.
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Just a bit more on untangling the Melody track. It seems the SEQ button only allows me to assign patches on the Melody and Soloist track. Again, I don't really understand the rationale here, but there must be a broader application that requires this.
I've been using an F blues MIDI file that was in the BiB files, which has three channels -- bass, drums, piano. All of this is in the Melody track, and there are Play check boxes next to each, but checking and unchecking don't seem to do anything (I'm trying to kill the piano track)
Ideally I would like to move each track to the corresponding Instrument Part buttons, but don't see any way to do this
Chris
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OK, wait, I've got it. I found the part of the BiB manual that deals with Importing MIDI files ... so I can take any MIDI file (including the ones that came with BiB) and essentially force the channels into the tracks with this import tool.
This also seems to be clearing up problems with the drum kits; so there must be some patch changes hard wired into the tracks that I don't understand.
Thanks for all the help from the board ... this gets me going with the software
Chris
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OK now I'm concerned. Either a Troll is using Chris Westland's identity or Chris you're playing a game of some sort with us. If this really is Chris you telling me that a man with your background is being thrown by this program? What's up?
Biography
Chris Westland is Associate Professor of Information and Operations Management at the University of Southern California. He holds a Ph.D. in Computers and Information Systems from the University of Michigan; an MBA in Accounting and B.A. in Mathematics and Physics from Indiana University. He was previously employed as a Certified Public Accountant for Touche Ross in Chicago, and as a Database Administrator and Computer Security Analyst for Rockwell International. He is a member of INFORMS, the American Statistical Association, the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants, Beta Gamma Sigma, and is a Principal in USC's Center for Software Engineering. He has published over 50 articles in research journals and proceedings on various aspects of the economics of information technology, pricing and investment analysis for information technology, and risk assessment and control for information systems, statistics in computing, and software engineering. He is currently completing books on policy and design for electronic commerce systems.
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Chris to have total control over the midi tracks, you need to use RB (Real Band) since it allow you to do what you wanted. BiaB assignes the tracks other than the two mentioned.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Check the User Manual for your Roland, typically towards the last pages there will be a listing of all voices and what MIDI channels they are assigned to work on.
Most MIDI synths that use GM (or GM2) mode put the Percussion Bank on MIDI ch. 10 but not all. Some still use the older ch. 16 standard. Others may use a different channel as well.
**Also check the BiaB song you are using. If the Drums trackname is in Green, signifying that RealDrums are invoked for that particular songfile, you will not hear any MIDI drums by design. Turning off the RealDrums in the RealDrums control panel such that the Drums trackname turns Yellow, signifying MIDI drums are being invoked is in order. **
--Mac
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Chris, I still think your Roland is not set to GM mode because of your problem with the drums. Just being in Multitimbral mode is not necessarily GM mode. I downloaded the manual for your keyboard and what a mess that thing is! As far as I can tell, there's no mention anywhere of GM/GS, GM2, playing SMF's which is Standard Midi File, none of that. It's ridiculous. It's another example of how manufacturer's give GM the short shrift even though Roland specifically makes a big deal out of it being fully GM/GM2 compatible on their website. You would think there would be a simple entry in the index titled "if you want to play a SMF, do this". I did this before I had to leave for work so maybe it's there but I missed it. If you have Adobe Pro, try a keyword search in the online manual. I have a Roland Sonic Cell and it has to be in Performanc Mode to access the GM soundbank. When I play Biab with it, it just goes there automatically. If I''m using RB to play a midi file, same thing. Try putting your keyboard in Performance mode and see what happens. Also in Biab see the menu bar at the very top of the screen. In the middle is the GM menu. Click on that and one of the entry's in that combo box is something like send GM or GS at startup. Play with those entries and see if that does it. GS is the Roland General Midi standard, try that one first but try the GM one as well. As I said earlier, playing Biab using GM should be a no brainer. 30 seconds max. If none of this works, try going to one of the Roland user forums like this one Rolandclan I feel your pain, man. I hate this crap with a manual not explaining the most basic things. Bob
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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