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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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After working with Real Tracks for the past few weeks, I'd have to agree with Graham about the acoustic bass being too 'busy'...my needs were for a basic jazz quartet, with me on live piano, and the BIAB RT on bass, drums, and guitar.... I'm using the MegaPAK, so maybe my RT options are limited, but ALL of the RTs for these instruments, in my opinion, way overplay their parts... to my ears, it sounds like they are all soloing at the same time - making for a very incoherent mix - so much so that my wife, the vocalist, struggles to hear the '1' and even what key they are in... Even the 'very simple' acoustic bass RT is WAY too busy... are there no 'basic' RTs to be found?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I've been using RealTracks since they came out, and have about 50 rendered to wav. There is a mix there, and we mostly play 'standards'. I have no problem coming in and out, picking up the horn, playing a verse on piano, her on flute or horn. I used to sing, but no longer, however. I don't have issues with the above. Perhaps for simpler tastes it would be very easy to do a bass count 1 style, bass 1 and 3 style, then all you'd get is G nothing nothing nothing nothing G nothing...etc. The other would be counter bass as in G nothing C nothing G nothing..etc. That would drive me nuts. I do find it odd that these bass players are 'overdoing it.' I guess I've gotta go hear Neil in Toronto again and listen to his group. Here's a vid where he's playing with Terry Clark and Bill Mays, but I think he's on the solo only about 2:14 or so. http://new.music.yahoo.com/neil-swainson/Midi bass lines can easily be done, then the edit/freeze thing can be done. In a group most bass midi is ok. Gives you the ultimate solution as long as you have a good synth you should get a really good sound.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Love Neil's playing. Just the kind of bassist I like to work with. It's more interplay than being busy.I think I mentioned before Neil's playing is for the more modern jazz musicians. Swing and trad players would of course prefer much simpler bass lines. Modern bassists are more than just time keepers. Just listen to Scott LaFaro back in '60s with Bill Evans. He wasn't just a time keeper. The interplay between Scott and Bill was phenomenal. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think a some people are missing the point here. There is nothing at all wrong with Neil Swainson's playing, or his style, in real life. What is very wrong is the way the samples of his playing have been selected and stitched together in the programming of the BB RealTracks. As I said before, the walking baselines are just not logical. Also Neil does not use anywhere near as many fancy runs and embellishments in his actual playing.
I already did the task of listening to Neil, admittedly on recordings, and then comparing this to the RealTracks we have. I agree about the 'interplay' comment above, particularly at the slower tempos. But I still feel the RealTracks are a misrepresentation of his playing.
Is it possible that Neil's line were analysed as though they were a one or two-bar bass groove, that you might use in rock music? That will not work for jazz walking bass, of course. See my previous post on how one bar is supposed to run into the next.
I think PG Music has to start again with these jazz bass lines - even the new 'simple' and 'very simple' ones. I still find them very annoying to play against.
I wonder how Neil feels?
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Here is a WMA Yamaha Mega Voice Bass Demo from my Tyros keyboard. You have to use Yamaha's Mega Enhancer software to replace the standard patches with these and it only works with Yamaha's keyboard's and sound modules that have the Mega Voices. My keyboard is about 7 years old now. Trax
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Quote:
I think a some people are missing the point here. There is nothing at all wrong with Neil Swainson's playing, or his style, in real life. What is very wrong is the way the samples of his playing have been selected and stitched together in the programming of the BB RealTracks. As I said before, the walking baselines are just not logical. Also Neil does not use anywhere near as many fancy runs and embellishments in his actual playing.
I already did the task of listening to Neil, admittedly on recordings, and then comparing this to the RealTracks we have. I agree about the 'inerplay' comment above, particularly at the slower tempos. But I still feel the RealTracks are a misrepresentation of his playing.
Is it possible that Neil's line were analysed as though they were a one or two-bar bass groove, that you might use in rock music? That will not work for jazz walking bass, of course. See my previous post on how one bar is supposed to run into the next.
I think PG Music has to start again with these jazz bass lines - even the new 'simple' and 'very simple' ones. I still find them very annoying to play against.
I wonder how Neil feels?
You put it very well Graham in this post and your previous ones. I am surprised more jazz players haven't complained about it. Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
+1
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Since I have "Kontakt" from NI I say: excellent!
It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments.
The trick of Kontakt to make it sound real: Each instrument has specifics and they can be "scripted". An acoustic bass player might use string one for an F and the same string for a G but another string for an A. This "intelligence" is built into Kontakt. Changing position on the same string will sound different inbetween the notes than using another string. In addition acoustic bass fretless and a part of its "charm" comes from some slightly out of tune notes. Tahts all built in. Next to the excellent samples used.
With this "scripting" technology even a riff recorded from a midi keyboard can sound very convincing "bass-like". Because Kontakt automagically "adds" the queek and noise and stuff a bass would do.
On the other hand: brass licks are still way behind the real thing. Solo brass instruments are so-so... and WAY behind RealTracks.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have heard some astonishing things done with General MIDI. You can do them, too, if you're willing to massage your tracks some.
A friend sent me a MIDI cover of a Beatles song with Paul playing the Hofner. As I recall, he mixed upright bass with a little steel-string acoustic guitar in the same octave to get the bottom along with the brightness of round-wound strings. It was very convincing, even on my cheap soundcard.
If I was going to do the same thing with upright bass, I'd likely try adding some fretless, especially if I was going to do much in the upper registers. Most GM uprights I've heard start sounding kinda 'tinky' up there.
I myself have done some beautiful things by mixing, say, piano voices with some of the GM pads. The results were great. The better your GM source, the better the results. Off the subject, possibly, but I never ran out of combinations I could use in GM.
Today this is called "layering" and is done routinely in software instruments such as Kontakt or Reason. But that's cheating, innit? I thought we were talking about straight GM.
In the mid 1990s I was limited to 16 MIDI tracks in whatever sequencer I was using at the time. Today we have 48 available in Real Band and effectively unlimited tracks in most mainstream DAWs. Layer away. Use The Force. Make Byootiful Music.
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Quote:
Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
+1
Very good question. Go to garitan.com and click on jazz and big band and any track. Just don't try to run it with biab. This is crimianl since pg music sold it to me. P retty G reedy music? They know it's not general midi compliant but hey..... it's jist biddnis.
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Ron,
I'm sorry that you have that attitude.
A wise old musician once taught me that it is possible to catch way more flies with honey than with vinegar - provided, of course, that your goal is to catch the flies in the first place.
I'm not a representative of PGMusic, just a user of their fine accompaniment software for many years and have hung out hear on the forum trying to help others solve problems.
That said, I can also state unequivocally that this particular outfit is indeed a LOT different from the type of situation that you are assuming and trying to paint of them.
Yes, there are frustrations to be found in this software, there are some specific issues that by now I can tell you don't ever seem to get sorted out, but I do not believe for one instant that these problems are due to the development team (or any other dept.) at PGMusic not caring about their product or their customers.
This is from firsthand experience in dealing with this company for more than a decade now.
I too have lost time over certain issues, but in the overall have also way more good times with Band in a Box than bad. Made some money with it, too (grin).
Compared to *many* other software companies in this world, PGMusic has shown a rather outstanding record of doing GOOD BIDNESS in my experience.
It is my hope that you will stick with it long enough to experience the same for yourself, as there is a wealth of good stuff for you there.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Quote:
Compared to *many* other software companies in this world, PGMusic has shown a rather outstanding record of doing GOOD BIDNESS in my experience.
I am into recording for 30+ years now, DAW user ever since they appeared but very new to Band-In-A-Box. The latter I use for composing and creating some background tracks for overdubbing later. I have NEVER been as efficient as I am now. I found some "odd" things or even bugs quite early. But no show stopper yet. Even as a novice I was able to produce the output I wanted and more than once I was just surpised how good it finally sounded. BIAB is just great and worth every cent. I should admit though that I do all the finalizing and polishing by cutting/re-arranging/mixing in my DAW. Thats what a DAW is for, finally. BIAB is for finding ideas, trying out stuff, composing and creating early versions of new music, no?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have used JABB with BIAB for a few years without a problem. I set up a Sax trio
and a Trumpet trio and use the the bass and piano with Real Drums. Works very well
although I am not a fan of the horn sounds and would only use them for practice.
Dave
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
BIAB is for finding ideas, trying out stuff, composing and creating early versions of new music, no?
Right in one!
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
<...>It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments. <...>
With all due respect, this statement is absolutely false, unless you are referring to the synth you mention, Kontakt (and others).
Some synths will not reproduce them, but others will indeed. The Physical Modeling Synth I use with my wind synth (Yamaha VL70m) will reproduce 90-95% of the articulations of other instruments, and add a few of it's own.
I've fooled many guitarists into thinking my synth playing was a guitar - I even got the ultimate compliment in a major guitar forum - Your guitar playing is Jeff Beck-ish. In the thousands of guitarists on the forum, not one could tell it was a synth. When I revealed the secret, they were amazed - however one guitarist said in re-listening he though the whammy vibrato was a tiny bit too smooth.
I fooled a trumpet player who was listening in another room enough to come into our room to see who was sitting in on trumpet.
Perhaps Kontakt can't do this, but other synths can.
The thing about MIDI is that it all comes down to your synthesizer. The acoustic bass on either my Yamaha VL70m or my Korg i3 sounds good enough and is expressive enough to do the job extremely well. The few acoustic bass things they will not do are things that the above average listener could not hear anyway.
I'm a lifelong pro Tenor sax player, there are many times when I reach for my VL70m/WX5 (controller) instead of my acoustic sax on the gig. Why? Although they synth sax only does about 90% of what the acoustic sax does, it also offers me some things that the acoustic sax cannot do.
It's all in the synth module, and the player's ability to use the synth module.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Quote:
<...>It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments. <...>
With all due respect, this statement is absolutely false, unless you are referring to the synth you mention, Kontakt (and others).
I am with you. I should have written "GM MIDI" and not just "MIDI" because that is what this thread is all about. Whenever you can use some available MIDI controllers in a very specific way together with a specific synth then you are right, of course.
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And a good G-MIDI synth has all 128 continuous controllers available so it can sound extremely expressive.
The only difference between a General MIDI synth and a non GM synth is that in GMidi the acoustic bass is always patch 33. In one of my non GM synths it's 42. The bass (or other) patch on a GM synth can be of cheesy quality, like the ones in most computer sound cards, or it can be of absolute stellar quality.
Consider the work done by most keyboard players since the Yamaha DX-7 was introduced in the early 80s. By the 90s even the keyboard greats of the time like Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson were playing new synths. And between the black and white keys and the sound generating part of virtually every digital keyboard is our old friend MIDI.
The fact that MIDI is still used today, reflects the foresight and flexibility of the engineers who wrote the specifications.
Don't want to carry around a 400+ pound B3 organ to the gig? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
Don't want to hire a string section? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
Don't want to hire an acoustic bass player? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
In most cases, if the synth of good quality and is played well, most musicians will not be able to tell the difference. And the synth and player are good, the audience will not notice that it's a synth.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
This is crimianl since pg music sold it to me. P retty G reedy music? They know it's not general midi compliant but hey..... it's jist biddnis.
Ron
Pretty Greedy Music. Cute. You are an IDIOT Ron. Biab will work just fine with JABB you just have to jump through some hoops, it's not idiotproof simple like GM is but the tradeoff is it sounds much better than most GM synths. It's your choice if you want to keep things complex or simple and if you don't like it use the money back guarantee.
Glad to know it's not just me who sets you off. What's your excuse this time, buddy?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I just wanted to say that all the complaints I made in this topic have been corrected in the RealTracks 1-121 Updates - May 1 2008 to Feb 4 2011 (Full) which I downloaded for my Audiophile version on an external hard drive two days ago. I tested the different jazz walking bass lines today and I cannot find anything to complain about. In fact, everything we suggested has been done. An excellent job from the PG development crew!
I did post a separate topic advising of this but did not like to leave this one looking as though nothing had been done. It has and personally I am well pleased!
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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