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If you critique someone else's song: It is NOT cool to rewrite their entire song without asking first - it's easy to send a PM and ask. It is NOT cool to disparage their faith or straigthen them out on their religion/personal beliefs. It is NOT cool to act like a juvenile hurling the lame insult "oh it's praise and praise only" if they don't agree with your criticism. No one is obligated to agree with you no matter how brilliant your suggestion may be. It IS cool to offer a friendly suggestion and be gracious whether or not it's accepted. It IS cool to move on if you don't relate to the song and comment on the songs you do. It IS cool to state whether or not you want critiques so there is no confusion. It IS ALWAYS COOL to use good manners and common courtesy. If you wouldn't say it face to face - eye to eye then it shouldn't be said here. Songs are copyrighted material. All rights belong to the writer who posted it regardless of how good bad you may think it is or how improved you think you can make it - you have to get their permission before posting your version. To be taken seriously it is wise to act professionally. I think if we follow these suggestions we can keep the user showcase a supportive place for all of us. 
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--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hi Sundance, I like your list  One other thing that I'd like to mention is that given that this is a "Showcase" and not a "Critique" forum, to my mind the implication is that, unless a person asks for a critique, none should be given. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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That's true Noel, but my concern is that human nature being what it is - the critic or the natually want to "help" - especially among writers and musicians who more often than not feel the powerful need for self expression - temptation can be too much LOL. Many people I think honestly believe if you put something out there they have the right and the duty to nit pick it. So that's why I included it IS cool to state whether or not you want critiques so there's no confusion. Pretty easy and painless to just say what you want up front. That's what I'll be doing in the future.
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Diane, who is married to me (called a wife by some), mentioned after leaving a dinner party that it seemed to go pretty well. She asked me my opinion.
Though I never mentioned it to the hostess, the salad fork was misplaced. The water glass was not in the proper position. There was music and the stereo speaker was closest to me, and the other one misplaced on the floor in an adjacent room. The hostess served from the wrong side, and picked up plates from the wrong side, and stacked them while walking around the room. The brandy served after supper in the living area was in the wrong type of glass, and poured from a bottle with a label. The host went out, and came back chewing gum which he kept while drinking brandy.
Etiquette is a lost art. I smiled and never mentioned these things. I doubt anyone notices when I serve them that it is done properly.
When asked a question which is properly phrased, one may answer the question.
Open ended questions are the most dangerous.
"What did you honestly think of the lamb?" Oh Oh. Do you really wish to know that it was terribly overcooked, that it lacked rosemary, and that it was poorly carved? "Why are you crying?"
Silence is golden.
The proper answer, (using etiquette), might be, "Thank you for having us tonight, I enjoy lamb, it makes for a great meal..." is the proper type of evasive answer called for. Then the best method is to divert the conversation to safer ground.."
"I hear the weather might be bad in the coming days."
So in the end if the poster asks for help, give them yours. If you are being showed a brand new Ford Focus, be enthusiastic. No need to say you just signed papers and are getting a Porsche next week. Nor is it called for to discuss the custom leather you are getting when you see the cheap cloth seats.
I used to notice that the consumption of beverages of a certain type enhanced beauty substantially. A Ford Focus was cool, and that woman you thought was unkempt and not built like you like has become the apple of your eye....
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Josie, totally agree...
Bob
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Josie,
Well said and correct. Some things are better left unsaid. Some things can "tactfully" be said if requested. Persons who tear a song apart and then re-write it are out of bounds in this forum setting. Anyone can nit pick someone's song and change lyrics, mix, chord structure etc. All these things are subjective for each person. And to that point each of us who displays our songs on this forum are at different levels in our knowledge of this art. Most of us are not pros trying to get a record deal. Be gentle.
My 2 cents,
Marty
Music is what feelings sound like.
Band In A Box (current) Sonar Producer X2, Windows 7, 16 Gigs Ram, Quad Core, AMD Processor, Alesis MK2 Monitors, Roland Quad Capture Audio Interface,
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the problem we have here is a complete misunderstanding of exactly what showcase was meant to be.Some writers here put up their songs and were "happy" to get a "constructive" critique others didnt both should have stated with their first post whether it was ok to do so or not.When someone writes a song its their baby and for some(in fact most)its hard to take when others find fault with it Im no different but if I see a "genuine" critique then I take it because hopefully it just might make my song more commercial thats if Im looking for a deal and even if I was writing just for fun could just make that song a little bit better. So I assume when the writers post up on this page they are quite happy to accept a "constructive" critique from others.. if they are not then post them up on showcase please.cheers Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
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This was a good idea, Josie. I hadn't checked in on "Oh Me, Oh My" before today and I was quite surprised at the content and the discussion that your posting invoked from forum members. Healthy discussion yes. In the days before the Users Showcase appeared, everything posted seemed to be as "Skyline" put it - a Work in Progress. As for me because of greatly reduced hearing, I was never sure if I was missing "artifacts" or had frequency imbalance in my mixes - so I asked for help from "better" ears than mine. I see nothing wrong with Work-in-Progress (WIP) postings and Finished Project postings both in the showcase - it's all part of the User's process. But as already stated, the songwriter/producer should state the limits of the feedback for which they are looking. i.e. Mix Levels; Praise Wanted  etc. Anything beyond the poster's set of limitations, that really must be said, can be delivered by PM after asking permission to deliver.. Personally, I think lyrics are personal and should be hands off - but I've crossed my own line once or twice. I think the further we keep our personal biases out of this area, the better off the exchange and acceptance of suggestions and information will be. And again remember the PM - not everything has to be out front in the forum. This is an artistic community, and the heart and soul find their way into our many projects. That might be something to remember when responding to a song posting. Afternoon All - Ian
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Hi,Ian quote: "Personally, I think lyrics are personal and should be hands off -"
ok if thats how you feel then when you post up your song mention that.For me Im quite open for input on my lyrics. Ive worked with a songwriter (and we are still co-writing)who has had 200 covers of his songs and is in the Welsh Hall Of Fame who is a whizz with lyrics and his input to my songs really helped the song improve 100%.But thats me and not you which is ok but I guess there are other writers here of both persuasions and as long as those who critique know where they stand then there should be no problems in the future Cheers Frankie
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Frankie working with a co-writer of your choice that you know personally and have a long term relationship with is a completely different scenario. You obviously trust his opinion because you respect his work. And I would be quite surprised even in that scenario if the two of you agree 100% on every little thing. But I'm sure you treat one another with respect. Comparing that kind of relationship to a forum is like comparing oranges and apples. Cheers.
Last edited by Sundance; 12/05/10 03:30 PM.
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to be quite honest Josie I really dont know what your problem is.I think Ive been pretty even handed here and Ive tried to show that there are songwriters here who are quite happy to share their music and welcome a constructive critique.Though Ive mentioned my working relationship with a close friend of mine Ive also stated that if I ever posted a song here I would look carefully at all critiques especially DC who looks at a song "in depth" which means he spends a lot of his time hoping to give good constructive advice even if that means it isnt accepted by the poster.I agree criticism should be done without reverting to offensive language but I can only speak for myself and I have never done that.So I will make this my last post on this and hope you carry on writing your songs.Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
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I agree with Josie - To offer "help" to someone who's not looking for it - no matter how good or well intentioned that "help" may be - is bad etiquette. If someone doesn't want my input on their song, I don't want to waste our time. End of story. Unless someone specifically asks for specific input, I won't be giving it. But I'm concerned with: Quote:
Songs are copyrighted material. All rights belong to the writer who posted it regardless of how good bad you may think it is or how improved you think you can make it - you have to get their permission before posting your version.
To be sure: songs are copyrighted material. However, all rights do not belong to the writer. Specifically, fair use grants a limited exception to copyright, under specific circumstances. To quote Wikipedia:Quote:
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship.
The U.S. Copyright Office notes:Quote:
The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission.
According the to U.S. Copyright Office, there are four factors that need to be taken into consideration when determining if fair use applies:Quote:
- The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
- The nature of the copyrighted work
- The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
- The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work
Discussion of lyrics - including rewriting of those lyrics - falls under fair use.
However, "fair use" isn't the same as "good etiquette".
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Frankie,
I was only responding to your post to Ian. Sorry, if I stepped on your toes. Peace.
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Hi David,
I think fair use is a bit of a stretch in the confines of this forum but I'm no entertainment attorney and I don't play one on TV....
We agree on etiquette and that is nice.
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Although it would probably never happen, the best thing would be to make a dedicated critique forum where everyone knows the deal. But I'd guess it's beyond the scope of what the PG forums are all about. The perfect world would have the showcase forum and a critique forum. Post where you want, or to both. Short of that, these common courtesy guidelines Josie puts forth seem fine.
The problem comes in if people start saying no critiques are wanted. That tells me the person is close minded and unwilling to hear anything but 'great work'. I give and get that from family. Nothing is gained by that really, except an ego stroke. So rather than just saying in effect, hands off, which we KNOW never fully happens with us creative types anyway, perhaps copy and paste this statement if you are not interested in acknowledging critiques about your work-
This song is done for now and although some critique and discussion is welcome, forgive me if I don't acknowledge critiques or suggestions for changes at this time. I must move on to another project. If I revisit this song at a later time, I may give some of your thoughtful suggestions consideration. Thanks in advance for taking the time to listen and comment.
That's good POSTER etiquette. That gets your message across gracefully, while allowing a discussion to take place. Or, it may curb it. But it would be a shame to turn down an opportunity to learn. I mean really, who doesn't want to improve? But once you post your work, even if you ask not to, you may get feedback. So it's a good idea for the poster and critiquer alike to put forth good etiquette. It may just allow some learning to take place, while keeping the smiles on our faces while it happens.
Dan
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peace also Josie.You've got talent and anyone with such talent should not "hide it under a bushel" and you dont Cheers Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
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windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
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AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
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yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Whenever you put a song, a cover or original, out for the public to hear, be it on a forum, CD, live playing, etc., you open yourself up to criticism, good and bad. That’s the way it’s always been and always will be.
The problem is etiquette or more specifically the lack thereof. Always be nice when critiquing a song, even if you don’t like it.
Just my two USD cents.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Quote:
Whenever you put a song, a cover or original, out for the public to hear, be it on a forum, CD, live playing, etc., you open yourself up to criticism, good and bad. That’s the way it’s always been and always will be.
The problem is etiquette or more specifically the lack thereof. Always be nice when critiquing a song, even if you don’t like it.
Just my two USD cents.
I agree and Ive said so in all of my posts on this.But if I didnt like a song as you stated above then I just wouldnt give it any critique what would be the point.Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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A few excerpts:
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