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I have seen some variation of C3 or C4 in software apps. I don't know why that is. Perhaps starting at zero or one???
However note number 60 is constant. So if you are in doubt, put in any note, transpose to note 60, then see if your software calls it C3 or C4.
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put in any note, transpose to note 60 How do I do this in BIAB? I am curious if it matches Matt's approach mentioned above and the confirmed result of my NCH Perfect Pitch Tuner test.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/15/20 05:51 AM.
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The midi standard defines note 60 as middle C. During the eighties (when midi was just an infant) Roland documentation defined midi not 60 as C3. At the same time Yamaha documentation defined midi note 60 as C4. The definition of what is middle C in midi has been a point of confusion ever since.
Most plugin developers will reference C3 or C4 as middle C but some don't even document that leaving it up to the user to find out for themselves.
Back on subject, most developers emulate realism by using three techniques; addressing velocity dynamics, articulations and round robins.
Velocity dynamics means a separate sample will be used in different velocity ranges to emulate how an instrument sounds different at various volume levels. For example a guitar that is strummed softly sounds way different than the same guitar strummed hard.
Articulations are the different ways a note can be played. A guitar can be muted, hammer-on, hammer-off, slide up, slide down for example.
Round robin means multiple samples of the same sound. Strum a guitar twice and it will sound slightly different each time. Round robin means you would use sampled strum 1 the first time and sampled two the second.
The plugin developer will normally have a way to use midi to make these choices. For example use CC 07 (velocity) (volume)or CC11 (Expression) to select a volume sample. Another common method is to use notes outside the normal instrument range to select round robins or articulations.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 12/18/20 08:56 AM. Reason: corrected CC 07 label
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I always used the reference that A 440 Hz is for A above middle C, (based on equal temperament) and therefore as a reference note, Middle C is the first 'C' note below this frequency (regardless of whether it is referred to as C4, C5, C3, etc). The first C note that has a frequency less than 440Hz is 'Middle C'.
Now, back to the program...
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Having everyone on the same page as to midi 60 (middle C 262 Hz the one below A 440) being C4 or C3 or C5 has significant advantages. When I say everyone I mean everyone who has ever used (or will ever use) Scientific notation in the world. The first obvious example is we would not be wasting any time on this discussion. Another good one is I am trying to use the BIAB Vocal Wizard to adjust key for a Vocalist in my Jam Group and I keep having to remember to change the BIAB choice C5 to the one he gave me C4 (extra waste of time work). So how is this fixed? This is the best answer I can come up with. Find the current most common and promote that so it is eventually the only one used. The best way I can think of to find the current most common is to get the one that all the free phone tuning apps in this video use (free phone tuning apps are the way of the future as I see it). I have posted to YouTube hoping Aimee (or someone else) can give me the answer relative to A 440. The more free computer tuning apps that can be added to this list the better. Free is the key word here (free is always the most popular). Ultimately the way I see it is PG-Music should read this, jump on it and fix BIAB to match this free standard. My bet is it is C4 because Google says this and it is also essentially free. Free NCH Perfect Pitch is using C4. I have another friend working on this.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/17/20 04:34 AM.
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To add to the C4 argument I looked up "what is the lowest frequency humans can hear" and it is 20 HZ. That matches up with This Musical Pitch table. So it shows C0 as being the lowest C humans might be able to here and it shows Middle C as 261.626 Hz (midi 60) and as C4. It seems that we have some logic now suggesting C4 is correct. It comes back to my Joke "Google is King" :-) Hopefully I get some feedback soon on the free phone apps. I have emailed PG-Music Support about this as well asking for it to be an option with the default of C4 (betting in advance that it is the most popular as a result of the music pitch table). My friend says the very popular INS phone tuner comes in at C4. Another one in Aimee's video is C4.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/17/20 06:58 AM.
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HI ALL I wrote an article on this its on my web site a sets out the reasoning for all this confusion. Here is a copy. The octave numbering confusion C3 C4 etc. Some thing else to think about. Edited by Mike Head (07/17/17 10:31 AM) Please feel free to copy and paste this text to a Word doc if you want a print out or use link at bottom of page. If you move you compositions around between different manufactures keyboards and different computer music software you will soon fall foul of the octave numbering night mare. I will try and make some sense of it for you. Normal Octave notation is given here in the International Organization for Standardization ISO system, Here octave -1 (minus one) is C0 this means therefore that middle C will be C4 being the 4th C on a 88 note piano. Great but: Yamaha call middle C = C3 why? Because they start counting from 0 not -1 This sits well on a 61 note keyboard as it is the 3rd C from the bottom as a 61 note keyboard that starts on C1and not C0 or C-1. Ok still with me. Unfortunately each manufacturer and software music programme writers have their own ideas about this. For example Cakewalk Sonar call middle C = C5 There's no universal rule, so it can be confusing. SONAR starts counting with MIDI Note 0 as C0. You can change the "Base Octave for Pitches" on the Options | Global | General tab. I have mine at -2 to match my Yamaha keyboard, where Middle C is C3... Another strange thing about Yamaha is even on a Clavinova with 88 keys they still call middle C = C3 even though it is now the 4th C up the keyboard. Still at least it is consistent across the range of instruments. Never mind in fact these octave names are only labels in this context and do not have any relationship to pitch really.in the world of electronic music. As it all works by Midi anyway and midi has to work with note numbers, that is every note, has to have a midi number (computers can’t read sharps and flats from a score and interpret them like you can) There are two golden rules that keep some sanity in all this: All MIDI devices use these numbers. The midi spec states that Middle C shall always be note number 60. (No matter what you label the octave! And that A above middle C shall be tuned to 440 htz this is Midi note 69 Thank goodness for that. An historic note in the early days of electronic music some bright technicians rather than musicians thought that some thing as basic as middle C must work to the power of 2 This was great for digital and put middle C at 256 Htz unfortunately this is not the correct frequency for middle C which is around 261.6 Hz To summarise When the A440 pitch standard is used to tune a musical instrument, Middle C has a frequency around 261.6 Hz. Middle C is designated C4 in scientific pitch notation because of the note's position as the fourth C key on a standard 88-key piano keyboard But not Yamaha Middle C=C3. Another system known as scientific pitch assigns a frequency of 256 Hz to middle C but, while numerically convenient, this is not used by orchestras. Other note-octave systems, including those used by some makers of digital music keyboards, may refer to Middle C differently. In MIDI, Middle C is note number 60. The C4 designation is the most commonly recognized in auditory science [], and in musical studies it is often used in place of the Helmholtz designation c'. Thanks for taking the time. Link to PDF printable version https://app.box.com/s/nh31qsrn0ufuqytzf9qgwhplj8w35rd8Link to DOC printable version https://app.box.com/s/4cyggwjftidsrq7t62e0mt9c1hwz0vduMarch 2016 Mike Head. Just to add fuel to the discussion: Add to this that many orchestras don’t tune to 440 anyway, particularly Philharmonic And many of the German ones, as each strive to get their own edge with their sound. This is why it is often almost impossible to play along with some recorded orchestral performances. Have fun Mike
Last edited by Mike Head; 12/17/20 07:03 AM. Reason: extra para
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Thank you, Mike.
Applying this to BIAB, I do not see a setting in BIAB to declare what you want Middle C to be. You CAN set the split point between treble and bass clef staves, in Options, Preferences, Notation, Clefs Split At. However, if you specify C4, and then enter a middle C in Editable Notation, BIAB calls that note C5. This is the graphic that John Bowles showed many posts ago, and it doesn't make sense to me.
So, it would be nice if BIAB could let us define what Middle C is, allow us to apply any adjustment to existing songs or globally, and perhaps we should put this in a Wishlist post.
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So, it would be nice if BIAB could let us define what Middle C is, allow us to apply any adjustment to existing songs or globally, and perhaps we should put this in a Wish-list post.
Thanks Matt and Mike. I emailed PG-Music Support directly asking for this and put 2 links directly to my posts above. I am sure they will read beyond and consider your extensions to the idea. I mentioned the problem shows in the vocal wizard as well.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/17/20 07:03 AM.
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Hi all
Just added a parra to my last post
Mike
BIAB2021 UltraPlus,AsusN55S1Tbssd, W10/64,Akai EIEpro Yamaha CVP405,SquireStrat, CoolsoftVMidSynth Novatation Impulse61 Ctr kbd, Cwalk blab Kontakt http://mikesmusic.byethost16.com/
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I also just made a request to the developers to look at this. I found a thread from a few years ago where someone from PG Music said it would be passed on to the developers. Worth another try.
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to all midi people. and mario and mr geeze etc. the following is one heck of a midi resource. how about a ton of midi tutorials from a grammy winner ? https://www.reaper.fm/videos.phpthen page down on right hand side , and clik midi and virtual instruments. and then a slew of midi vids will appear. bout 70 vids listed. et voila. ton of midi. keep you busy for a week. the tutorials can be applied to lots of midi software. merry xmas. muso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/17/20 08:26 AM.
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............................
The plugin developer will normally have a way to use midi to make these choices. For example use CC 07 (velocity) or CC11 (Expression) to select a volume sample. Another common method is to use notes outside the normal instrument range to select round robins or articulations. No offense Jim but I would like to correct this so beginners don't get the wrong idea. CC7 is not velocity. CC7 is volume, as is CC2 (breath/wind controller) and CC11 (expression. Velocity is how soft or hard one plays a keyboard or blows into a breath/wind controller and it is a one time event. It may or may not influence volume. In a GM sound source it will influence the initial volume but you will need any of the above CCs to preform crescendos, sforzandos, forte-piano, etc. This is the same for many other sound sources. However some software uses the mod wheel (CC1) for volume, thus velocity does nothing. Also in some software velocity will change the timbre; this depends on how many layers there are per note. I just want to clear up the possible misunderstanding that CC7 is velocity.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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I generally think of the various volume 'controls' in MIDI to be like this:
CC7 (volume) is like your amp volume. Set it at the beginning of the track and leave it.
CC11 (expression) this is like the volume pedal on the organ or guitar volume pedal. Use it for crescendos, diminuendos, and other track volume changes throughout the song.
The beauty of having two is this: You can do all your changes in the track with CC11. However if you find when you are all done and compare the volume of your track to the others, say it's too loud or too soft, you can use CC7 to adjust that without having to change anything else in the track.
Velocity is the third one. It's called velocity because in the early days of MIDI they measured the interval of time between depressing a 'piano' style key and hitting the bottom. The quicker it went from top to bottom, the harder you hit the key, and the louder the note should be.
So the relative volume between notes for accents and other expressive differences between individual note volumes is expressed with velocity.
These are the basics.
In addition there are Aftertouch, Channel Pressure, and Breath Controller which can influence volume, but that depends on your MIDI controller and MIDI sound source. I advise new MIDI people to get the first 3 down pat before going on to these controls.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Mario, No offense taken. Thank you for finding the error and pointing it out. The original post is corrected with CC 07 labeled as volume.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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