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#692856 - 12/21/21 11:02 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
If you use a flute, a piano, any other instrument(s) or even Band-in-a-Box to capture and present deep feelings that represent an "expression" of your soul, then I am eagerly waiting to hear. Yes, a tool is just a tool. It is the "soul" part that is most important.


I really have no idea what this means. I can't take it literally and I don't relate to the metaphor. All I know is that you think pre-1954 musicians FOR THE MOST PART had Beautiful Souls and present day musicians FOR THE MOST PART have souls like garbage dumps.

Here's a challenge.

Go back in time, if you can, to 1953. Literally, in a time machine.

Spend a year listening to everything that was coming out back then.

Condition: Your memories from 2021 are wiped when you go back, so you won't have a cheat sheet of what to listen to, where to find the good stuff. You won't remember any of it. You're just a 1953 guy listening to 1953 music, including all the crap that has by 2021 been relegated to the dustbin of musical history.

Then come back to 2021 and tell me 1953 was really so much better a year for music than 2020. Bet you won't!

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#692857 - 12/21/21 11:03 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
GodTripped Offline
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Harsh? Is it any harsher than releases ending up in budget bin at Tower Records? The difference is the bin is much larger now because technology made 'music creation' more accessible to those who can't make it otherwise.

This started as a discussion and should by no means be an indictment. The bar should always be high.

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#692861 - 12/21/21 11:25 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: GodTripped]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Mark Hayes Offline
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Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Originally Posted By: GodTripped
Harsh? Is it any harsher than releases ending up in budget bin at Tower Records? The difference is the bin is much larger now because technology made 'music creation' more accessible to those who can't make it otherwise.


Can't say I know how to solve that equation.

The thing is, if technology expands the set of people making music, say, 100 times, you would certainly wind up with a lot more crap but you should also presumably wind up with a lot more good stuff. Maybe it's an ugly ratio, maybe you have 100x more crap and only 3x more goodness, but that's still more than you had before. Hypothetically speaking.

In any case, I was reacting to your comments about BIAB, which did seem pretty dismissive of it as a possible tool for serious music production.

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#692883 - 12/21/21 12:54 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
If you use a flute, a piano, any other instrument(s) or even Band-in-a-Box to capture and present deep feelings that represent an "expression" of your soul, then I am eagerly waiting to hear. Yes, a tool is just a tool. It is the "soul" part that is most important.


I really have no idea what this means. I can't take it literally and I don't relate to the metaphor. All I know is that you think pre-1954 musicians FOR THE MOST PART had Beautiful Souls and present day musicians FOR THE MOST PART have souls like garbage dumps.

Here's a challenge.

Go back in time, if you can, to 1953. Literally, in a time machine.

Spend a year listening to everything that was coming out back then.

Condition: Your memories from 2021 are wiped when you go back, so you won't have a cheat sheet of what to listen to, where to find the good stuff. You won't remember any of it. You're just a 1953 guy listening to 1953 music, including all the crap that has by 2021 been relegated to the dustbin of musical history.

Then come back to 2021 and tell me 1953 was really so much better a year for music than 2020. Bet you won't!



Mark,

Again, this is not what I said. You are toying with my quote which you totally [*****] [this word is getting purged and it is not a curse word, oh well] the first time. You need to read a little more carefully.

I never said that ALL musicians from a certain day had beautiful souls, etc. etc.

I also never tied 1953 to that. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment in another point.

And I never said all musicians today have the soul of a garbage dump.

What I AM saying is that there was a time when I heard a lot of music that I felt on the level of my soul. It moved me.

And I am saying that MOST new stuff I hear coming out today sounds soul-less and robotic. TO ME. It just does.

I am not the only person who feels this way. But for the purpose of the discussion, that is not important. It is what I feel. Most new music today to me sounds canned, artificial, robotic and soul-less.

If you cannot understand that I am saying that, I can't help you. If you feel differently, then get out your credit card and buy it dude.

Over and out.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
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#692887 - 12/21/21 01:17 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
GodTripped Offline
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Side note: message received. Articulated, clearly so.

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#692890 - 12/21/21 01:22 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Mark Hayes Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
You need to read a little more carefully.


Oh well, the time travel idea was a good one! Unfortunately, you seem to have undershot 1953 and spent the year in a 1995 AOL chat room.

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#692894 - 12/21/21 01:37 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: GodTripped]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 16620
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 16620
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: GodTripped
You miss my point. Of course people will do what they want. Again, I was chiming in on the original post and its legitimate concern that those who made music prior to 15 years ago did so because they had some musical skill in which to do so. There was very little to hide behind and the crap was quickly identified as such and promptly placed in the budget rack at your local record store.


A good song is a good song regardless of how it was created.


Originally Posted By: GodTripped

BIAB and tools like it lend polish to the ill equipped save their mouse clicks and processing power, and to the point of the original post, the market is flush with dismissible works. The question to ask is, if you strip BIAB out of the equation will the song and the musicianship hold under its own weight? I boldly say no.


I think you have to be careful here. There are a number of excellent guitarists and vocalist here who's musicianship does hold up under its own weight.

I have said it before but I will say it again buying a music creation program does not make you a musician anymore then buying a paint program will make you an artist. If you are a musician or an artist then those programs will enhance your work.

YMMV
_________________________
I don't like to brag about expensive trips but I did just return from the gas station.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware

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#692903 - 12/21/21 01:56 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
GodTripped Offline
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
[quote=GodTripped]
In any case, I was reacting to your comments about BIAB, which did seem pretty dismissive of it as a possible tool for serious music production.


It is important to be clear because nothing I said on this exchange suggested I was dismissive of BIAB - I am the one who identified it as a "tool" much like your garden variety DAW is. Where your perception is spot on is there is no way it serves in the category of 'serious music production'. For the record, I thought it might be, but as a guitarist there is no way you can rely on BIAB to play in the same manner you would do for obvious reasons (timing, strumming technique, dynamics, even proficiency). However, you can approximate, which again is fine for fleshing out a concept but it will never be you. Unless, of course, it is.

All of my comments have been presented on the backdrop that BAIB is indeed useful for framing out musical ideas. So much has been talked about on the subject of projecting the soul of one's music yet it stands to reason that the more an 'artist' relies on BIAB the less it reflects the signature of who you are.

The good news is the software is useful to all of us.

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#692908 - 12/21/21 02:08 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
GodTripped Offline
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Thanks for the word of caution. I look in the mirror often and judge myself harshly on the musical front. My comment about stripping "BIAB out of the equation" doesn't target those who are excellent songwriters and musicians - only those who think they are because BIAB enabled them to think so.

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#692913 - 12/21/21 02:37 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: GodTripped]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Mark Hayes Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Originally Posted By: GodTripped
Where your perception is spot on is there is no way it serves in the category of 'serious music production'. For the record, I thought it might be, but as a guitarist there is no way you can rely on BIAB to play in the same manner you would do for obvious reasons (timing, strumming technique, dynamics, even proficiency). However, you can approximate, which again is fine for fleshing out a concept but it will never be you.


I grant you, a guitarist who bought BIAB in the hopes of using it to make records while recovering from a broken wrist would probably be very frustrated.

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#692923 - 12/21/21 03:09 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
GodTripped Offline
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 26
Loc: Montclair, NJ
The last word is yours. I am looking forward to hearing your records...

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#692929 - 12/21/21 03:27 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Mark Hayes
Originally Posted By: GodTripped
Where your perception is spot on is there is no way it serves in the category of 'serious music production'. For the record, I thought it might be, but as a guitarist there is no way you can rely on BIAB to play in the same manner you would do for obvious reasons (timing, strumming technique, dynamics, even proficiency). However, you can approximate, which again is fine for fleshing out a concept but it will never be you.


I grant you, a guitarist who bought BIAB in the hopes of using it to make records while recovering from a broken wrist would probably be very frustrated.



***


This is for Mark and "God": I am so glad that God decided to join the forum by the way. I was wondering what was taking so long. Also God, it is great to meet you, and I was wondering what kind of trip you prefer. Is it shrooms? Are you a shrooms guy or a Ayahuasca guy? Or lady, sorry!

Anyway, by "serious" music production do we mean using some loops in Ableton and writing songs about our wet....hmmmmm....wet noses??? With Justin Bieber?? Would that be serious???

On the other aspects of Band-in-a-Box, has anyone here ever played a studio session??? I mean, actually??

Is it not apparent that aside from whatever guitar you are going to play yourself, and vocals you are going sing, piano you are going to play, violin, pan flute, whatever, that NO ONE (or few) is going to be able to tell that the bass, synth, or mandolin came from BIAB???

A backing track is a backing track.

It is what you DO with it.

Remember????? Writing songs and stuff.

Hello...hello...anyone out there???

Anybody tuning up????

Oh, and Mark, I remember you from that AOL chat room. That was some crazy a.... s.....you used to say, but I will never bring it up.

Promise.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder







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#692932 - 12/21/21 03:32 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Mark Hayes Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/21/21
Posts: 892
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Oh, and Mark, I remember you from that AOL chat room. That was some crazy a.... s.....you used to say, but I will never bring it up.


What happens in The Flirt's Nook stays in The Flirt's Nook.

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#692934 - 12/21/21 03:37 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Mark Hayes]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina

You got it.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder







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#692940 - 12/21/21 04:17 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1866
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1866
Loc: Miami, Florida
Just for you David!

https://youtu.be/6YkAnv8inQE


Lyrics
Welcome to cyberspace, I'm lost in the fog
Everything's digital I'm still analog
When something goes wrong
I don't have a clue
Some 10-year-old smart [*****] has to show me what to do
Sign on with high speed you don't have to wait
Sit there for days and vegetate
I access my email, read all my spam, I'm an analog man.

The whole world's living in a digital dream
It's not really there
It's all on the screen
Makes me forget who I am
I'm an analog man

Yeah I'm an analog man in a digital world
I'm gonna get me an analog girl
Who loves me for what I am
I'm an analog man

What's wrong with vinyl, I think it sounds great
LPs, 45s, 78s but that's just the way I am
I'm an analog man

Turn on the tube, watch until dawn
One hundred channels, nothing is on
Endless commercials, endless commercials, endless commercials

The whole world's glued to the cable TV
It looks so real on the big LCD
Murder and violence are rated PG, too bad for the children
They are what they see

The whole world's living in a digital dream
It's not really there
It's all on the screen
Makes me forget who I am
I'm an analog man

Yeah I'm an analog man in a digital world
I'm gonna get me an analog girl
Who loves me for what I am
I'm an analog man

Yeah I'm an analog man in a digital world

Then you go dig into who really wrote this.

Billy
_________________________
Sears, Roebuck and Co guitar, Black Diamond Strings, RCA Victor Radio ASCAP Writer/Publisher IPI Number: 1117481473 Songwriters Guild Of America And All My EX'S actually do LIVE IN Texas

"Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game."

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#692948 - 12/21/21 05:05 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina

Awesome.

I love him.

He is one of the GREATS.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder







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#692957 - 12/21/21 05:42 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 5833
Loc: North Carolina

That made me find this. Ha ha ha. Doesn't get anymore real than this.

The guy is a trip.

_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder







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#693528 - 12/23/21 05:33 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 648
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Mike Halloran Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 648
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Quote:
has anyone here ever played a studio session??? I mean, actually??


Guilty. Too many to count over the decades.

Why?

Quote:
Is it not apparent that aside from whatever guitar you are going to play yourself, and vocals you are going sing, piano you are going to play, violin, pan flute, whatever, that NO ONE (or few) is going to be able to tell that the bass, synth, or mandolin came from BIAB???


Basses always give away that one is using BIAB. There are tricks to humanizing them but I have yet to find the miracle that makes then natural.
_________________________
BIAB 2021 Audiophile, 18 Core iMac Pro/4TB/128GB Monterey; 2012 MBP Catalina
Digital Performer 11, LogicProX
Finale 27, Dorico 3, Encore 5.0.7, SmartScore Pro 64 Notion 6, Overture 5

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#693551 - 12/23/21 07:55 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Which is better Vinyl or Digital?? An interesting look. [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1866
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
Expert

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1866
Loc: Miami, Florida
I can think of one horn guy, Matt somebody, I think he has played a studio session once or twice...lol There is a couple of Bob guys, B3 and Sax, they have been known to lurk around a few studios...lol

I am surprised we have not had a hundred "me too" on the studio list.

Does Sugar Hill count? Or Blacktop studio in Slidell Louisiana?

If I went there in a Studebaker does that disqualify me?

No vinyl but two-inch tape...lol $168 dollars a roll if I remember right.

Billy


Edited by Planobilly (12/23/21 08:21 PM)
_________________________
Sears, Roebuck and Co guitar, Black Diamond Strings, RCA Victor Radio ASCAP Writer/Publisher IPI Number: 1117481473 Songwriters Guild Of America And All My EX'S actually do LIVE IN Texas

"Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game."

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