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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: Byron Dickens
I really don't get why some people think using a computer is a hassle or why it is difficult. I suppose they've either never used tape or don't remember much....


It's easy. A complete budget home recording studio Like the Audient EVO Recording Bundle, has multiple components that require multiple accessories, cable connections and several layers of configuration. It's completely dependent on a PC connection. (Note in my comment above, if OM went on a cruise and carried nothing but his new Audient interface, he would have much musical recording success on his cruise.)



Strawman. Know what else your "standalone" recorder needs? Multiple accessories (like microphones, instruments and storage media) and cable connections.

"Several layers of configuration" is largely once and done.


Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle


Configuring systems, optimizing systems, connecting systems and maintaining configurations, optimization, connections



Strawman. Once and done.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

and avoiding former high end systems becoming obsolete with nothing more than a new OS release.



You must be a Mac guy.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

An audio software like Pro-Tools can be very picky, cumbersome, and extremely difficult to master.


Strawman. 1) If you can learn to use BiaB, you can learn to use a DAW. 2) One does not have to "master" a DAW to make good use of it.


Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

It can be CPU hoggish


Untrue.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

and very irritating having to deal with subscriptions and dongles.


Ad hoc. Both can be avoided.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle


The aggravation of updates that reset user personal settings over and over.


Ad hoc. That behavior can be suppressed.


Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

I'd guess you know these things but find the hassle to be worth it. The pros outweigh the cons for most people. Even though there's a high level of complexity, great results can be achieved. That's ok but this forum thread is directed toward those that want to focus on music and not tech stuff as OM pointed out.


Once again, you're forgetting that the audience you are addressing is already focusing on a certain amount of "tech stuff," as you so eloquently put it, in order to produce music.

Last edited by Byron Dickens; 05/03/22 02:07 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle




Here's an imaginary lifelike, remote scenario comparison:

Audient:

You're on a holiday cruise with your wife.
You have a new, unboxed Audient EVO Bundle. (interface, cables, mic and headphones)
You have access to rent wifi, internet and a laptop
The rental cost is exorbitant, spotty and unreliable.
You're barred from loading drivers and DAW software onto rental equipment.
If it's a Mac and is compatible without adding software, you still don't have a mic stand, or pop filter.


DP-03:

You're on a holiday cruise with your wife.
You have a new, unboxed Tascam DP-03.
You have access to rent wifi, internet and a laptop - Unnecessary
The is cost is exorbitant, spotty and unreliable. - Unnecessary
You're barred from loading drivers and DAW software - Unnecessary
You don't have a mic stand, or pop filter - Unnecessary
You can record live stereo.

Usage:
The DP-03 works ideally with BIAB Tracks, stems and mixes and you've loaded 40 tracks of live instruments, BIAB RealTracks and VSTi synth renders to work on during downtime on your cruise by adding Vocals, BGV's and guitar if brought it along.

Both PC connected or stand alone hardware devices can handle this project.

But here's the difference: The DP-03 doesn't need anything but a power outlet and headphones. Take it out of the box, power it up, arm tracks and it's instantly ready to record because it's two included condenser mics are assigned by default. Only beginners with absolutely no knowledge of recording with any type recording device will need a quick start guide. Using your previous multi track recording experience, you'd intuitively know how to operate it.

Add to that, imagine the cruise ship has a killer sax player in the band willing to provide solo and riffs to your song for a beer. Meet up with the player and record direct into a built in condenser mic. If the player happens to be a guitarist, the DP-03 has a Hi-Z direct input or mic the player's amp.



Your whole argument here is totally ad hoc.

One would think that if one were bringing a "new, unboxed Audient EVO Bundle" on a cruise with the intent of doing some recording that one would also bring the laptop to go with it - any necessary software already installed. Not to mention anything else necessary.


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< "Your whole argument here is totally ad hoc." >

Yes. my post was intentionally farcical.

Here's why:


Byron Dickens quote:
<"One would think that if one were bringing a "new, unboxed Audient EVO Bundle" on a cruise with the intent of doing some recording that one would also bring the laptop to go with it - any necessary software already installed. Not to mention anything else necessary.">

Of course I know an audio interface requires other equipment. I also know OM is aware of that. He says,"... ive used standalone mtr’s in the past i would prolly use one on a holiday with my wife...." just after saying, "By comparison , and i know its different …but for a low learning curve my audient audio interface came with a simple card…with simple instructions…
I was up and running in a few secs flat….simplicity itself."

"i know its different" - He understands the obvious difference between the self contained DP-03 and his multi-component PC. He made an ad hoc statement for comparison between the two systems. Needless to say, he knew an audio interface isn't comparable to a stand alone digital multi track recorder for remote use. You didn't catch it.

I'll rephrase your sentence to reflect his ad hoc point.

One would think that if one were bringing a "new, unboxed Tascam DP-03" on a cruise with the intent of doing some recording that one would know it's unnecessary to also bring a laptop to go with it - ALL necessary software is already installed, configured and assigned.

His subsequent post #715505 acknowledges he would choose to carry a DP-03 over a complete PC system on holiday.

Byron Dickens quote: "Know what else your "standalone" recorder needs? Multiple accessories (like microphones, instruments and storage media) and cable connections."
1. microphones -
Nope. The DP-03 has 2 built in mics.

2. Instruments -
Nope. On holiday, he may plan to only do vocals. (See item 1)

3. Storage media -
Nope. The DP-03 includes a formatted SD card.

Everything needed except headphones/earbuds is enclosed inside that "new, unboxed Tascam DP-03".


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I remember my first Tascam Porta-1. That was game changing. I had previously had a Teac 4 track reel to reel and sold it. It was a PITA to work with. Funny story... the guy who bought it was running a bootlegging operation back in the days of 8-track tapes. He ended up in federal prison when they caught him and his compadres. He had a whole room full of tape machines like mine for his duplication process.

The P-1 worked well but was track limited to 4 unless you wanted to bounce.... which ended up sounding like one muddy mess. Then, my first computer based DAW running on Windows 95. Cakewalk Pro 8 deluxe and a midi-man card. I was in hog heaven until I had to upgrade the OS, whereupon the midi-man was totally incompatible.

So after a time, I decided to get a portable digital recorder. It was a 16 channel Korg something or other. No computer needed. What a freaking nightmare trying to record music. It didn't do midi and trying to play a decent piano part was an exercise in frustration not to mention how difficult it was to do the drums. I think I battled with that portable desk for a few months before it went on eBay to the highest bidder.

At this point, I figured to get into music recording and do it halfway right, I was simply going to have to buy the proper gear. A new laptop, Cakewalk's Music Creator 4, and a Focusrite Saffire interface later, I was back in the game. Drums were still an issue but I was learning how to write drum tracks from scratch using midi.

One day, a friend told me that he used BB for drums and bass and when I took a look.....well.... that was a pivotal point in music creation for me. I built my own custom desktop DAW some time later and loaded it with everything, and that's where I'm at to this day.

I have blown past that wishful $400 ten times over as I was building the studio setup that I currently have between the hardware and the software..... oh yeah.

Can you record for under $400? Absolutely. Is it ideal? Nope.


I'm a firm believer in two sayings.

1. Use the right tool for the job.

2. You generally get what you pay for.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/04/22 04:09 AM.

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I have Band-in-a-Box, Cakewalk by Bandlab and Audacity on my computers. But, as my signature suggests I also have a Zoom digital 8 track recorder with a built-in microphone as well as drum and bass machines. Each serves a purpose and I'd hate to be without any of these tools.

I enjoy playing with the digital recorder drum machine while I'm sitting on the steps. It inspires me. When an idea strikes I can use the bass machine to get on key and sing or hum into the built-in microphone to capture the moment.

Any audio I create is recorded on my digital recorder. That eliminates the need for an audio interface, ASIO drivers and latency issues.

Cakewalk by Bandlab is my audio production classroom and playground. I learn about loops, VSTs, virtual instruments, effects, editing and mixing.

Audacity records internet audio, performs file conversion and trims audio files.

Band-in-a-Box provides session musicians.

Since I import my audio into the computer I can have Band-in-a-Box, Cakewalk, Audacity and internet audio all going at the same time without driver or latency issues.

The recorder gives me the freedom to be creative away from the computer and eliminate computer driver and latency issues. Love my computers but love my digital recorder too.

In some ways this discussion appears to advocate the choice is limited to either computer or digital recorder. There is room for both.


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I agree. You can't have too many toys if you are a musician and songwriter.

I had a nice Roland 8 track once that was stolen and I wish I still had it.

Anyway, I use a lot of the tools you mention, and each project is different. I also have a lot of instruments. At any given moment I might mic a djembe--or anything else. You just never know.

It also drives me a little nuts when people go on and on about what you have to use, or have to do and so forth. (Especially if you can find no Internet evidence that they have ever produced a song.)

I think as an artist you can whatever in the heck you want to.

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I’ve been delving into the world of vi’s for a time now.
Theres a lot out there.
At the same time heres whats going thru my mind…
..ok so i got 100 kik drums…or a 100 whatevers <<name your instrumen//sample.
What one sounds the best for the song even after ive knocked the 100 down to 10...? how to choose.
..the above i’m going thru right now..after going thru a slew of bb rt’s ive got 40 final candidates
For ‘the backing band’ BUT i only need 10…eek ! but i like all 40…lol.

What i’m trying to say having recorded with everything from nig studio gear like 2 inch 24 trak mtrs//big consoles down to junk stuff…how much gear does one need…?
For me personally i find i do better when i have fewer choices.
The coming of daws//pc’s//bb//rb//reaps freed me frankly from big gear i once used.

What i’m trying to say in conclusion is we all want the best for any song we are working on…but how much gear do we need ? how does one pick the best kick drum or whatever instrument //..sample …out of the 40 one likes ?

Thus i’m gonna be prudent with vi’s…sometimes less is more...
my granpappy used to say 'everything in moderation includeing moderation'.
lets not forget the time it takes to go thru a zillion of some instrument//sample....and the menus etc.

Best
om

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/06/22 04:04 AM.

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https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
< "Your whole argument here is totally ad hoc." >

Yes. my post was intentionally farcical.

Here's why:


Byron Dickens quote:
<"One would think that if one were bringing a "new, unboxed Audient EVO Bundle" on a cruise with the intent of doing some recording that one would also bring the laptop to go with it - any necessary software already installed. Not to mention anything else necessary.">

Of course I know an audio interface requires other equipment. I also know OM is aware of that. He says,"... ive used standalone mtr’s in the past i would prolly use one on a holiday with my wife...." just after saying, "By comparison , and i know its different …but for a low learning curve my audient audio interface came with a simple card…with simple instructions…
I was up and running in a few secs flat….simplicity itself."

"i know its different" - He understands the obvious difference between the self contained DP-03 and his multi-component PC. He made an ad hoc statement for comparison between the two systems. Needless to say, he knew an audio interface isn't comparable to a stand alone digital multi track recorder for remote use. You didn't catch it.

I'll rephrase your sentence to reflect his ad hoc point.

One would think that if one were bringing a "new, unboxed Tascam DP-03" on a cruise with the intent of doing some recording that one would know it's unnecessary to also bring a laptop to go with it - ALL necessary software is already installed, configured and assigned.

His subsequent post #715505 acknowledges he would choose to carry a DP-03 over a complete PC system on holiday.

Byron Dickens quote: "Know what else your "standalone" recorder needs? Multiple accessories (like microphones, instruments and storage media) and cable connections."
1. microphones -
Nope. The DP-03 has 2 built in mics.

2. Instruments -
Nope. On holiday, he may plan to only do vocals. (See item 1)

3. Storage media -
Nope. The DP-03 includes a formatted SD card.

Everything needed except headphones/earbuds is enclosed inside that "new, unboxed Tascam DP-03".



Your whole argument is still ad hoc. You keep coming up with ever increasing conditions on your fictitious scenario which are dubious at best.

Now you are taking one person's extremely limited use case and trying to extrapolate a broad generalization from it.

This is in addition to your strawman arguments about mountains of cables "complex, ever-changing configurations" and needing to completely "master" a deep, robust and complex application in order to produce anything useful. (I'm paraphrasing)

Not that the standalone recorder might not suit someone's needs perfectly. But the idea that a computer based DAW is too difficult or cumbersome is bogus.

Even my technophobe wife, with the help of a few tutorials, figured out enough of Cakewalk to record a guitar track and a couple of overdubs in the space of a couple hours.

I quote: "that was so easy! I don't know what I was afraid of."

As far as cumbersome tangles of gear, the Athanor Sound Labs mobile consists of a laptop, two channel interface and at most three cables.


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I can't say enough about the Tascam line. Not long ago, I replaced mine with a Zoom R-16. Now, you'll have to double check me on this, but, the last I looked, SD storage medium and the CPU had become outdated -- the CPU able to handle limited data. I don't recall the specs. With thousands of those units in use around the world, Tascam was not about to do a major redesign on the DP-03. Looking around Musician's Friend, I see they have now the TASCAM DP-03SD 8-Channel Portastudio. It claims a capacity of 32GB. It's marked down from 350$ to 300$. Note the change of name to 035-SD. In addition, Tascam was slow to adapt to the digital transfer. With the Zoom, the BAIB tracks can be rendered and transferred via thumb drive to separate tracks on the recorder. Don't even think of the hassle that is to transfer to the original DP-03.

Annoying is that the user finds this out on his own, since the Music Centers are not about to mention these features. Many times, I had the unit stop cold, a little "overload" message popped up. Of course, Tascam has great new up to date recorders for sale.

Again, I'm no expert, just a user. Still, I advise the musician look before leaping with respect to the DP-03.


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Originally Posted By: Byron Dickens
I really don't get why some people think using a computer is a hassle or why it is difficult. I suppose they've either never used tape or don't remember much....


My first recording was in 1965 in a studio a buddy and I leased to record the garage bands we were managing. Off and on over the past 57 years I went through most all of the emerging technology (at the consumer level). In 2011 I purchased a Mac and bought Logic Pro for $199 for life with zillions of free and frequent upgrades, sounds, fx, etc. I respect everybody’s work flow as great music is produced in a multitude of approaches … but I never look back.

And a huge FWIW,

Bud

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Charlie, have you ever run across a service that can extract tracks that were saved on a Fostex 16 via its proprietary format? I foolishly used that format instead of saving them as wav files, sold the unit and now 20 years later don’t have access to them. Several years ago I bought a used unit to load them and save as wave’s but the unit failed. Thanks

Bud

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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Charlie, have you ever run across a service that can extract tracks that were saved on a Fostex 16 via its proprietary format? I foolishly used that format instead of saving them as wav files, sold the unit and now 20 years later don’t have access to them. Several years ago I bought a used unit to load them and save as wave’s but the unit failed. Thanks

Bud

Hey Bud, not for the Foxtex but I had the same circumstances with my tracks done on a Boss 1200cd more than a few years ago and there was a service that converted audio files for several different formats located in Charlotte NC. I had 4-5 backup CD's I had completed on my unit that was in the Boss proprietary format but I thought their pricing was too high and opted not to use them. I don't recall the company name but they also did video conversions and had good reviews.

Fostex has a Mac software conversion program for some of their devices they may read your discs and allow conversion. It's called WAV Manager.


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You are a wealth of info. I will look into the wav manger. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

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FOSTEX Wave Manager supports only one type of their proprietary files, that generated by the Fostex MR series Multitrackers. Those with the original MR-8 needed to update their firmware to 1.08. The app is 32 bit but the current version was updated to run on Intel as well as PPC — no system requirements are listed.

FOSTEX WAV Manager

If the manual is to be believed, you may have to import them from the formatted CF cards but there may be a way to trick that. I converted my MR-8 files on import years ago. CF card readers are easy to find on Amazon if needed.
WAV Manager Manual

Unfortunately, other FOSTEX digital compression formats such as that used by my FD8 are unsupported and there's no conversion app that I know. Fortunately, I had selected 44.1/16 .wav back in the day and never had to deal with that.


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Thanks. Unfortunately my VF160 predated the MR models - was using it in 200o. Looks like my only option is to find an operable unit. Guess I can start checking fleabay.

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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Thanks. Unfortunately my VF160 predated the MR models - was using it in 200o. Looks like my only option is to find an operable unit. Guess I can start checking fleabay.

Bud

Reverb has a couple. Only one claims to be working, however.

Fostex VF-160 on Reverb

Good luck!


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What is the proprietary format file extension?
just curious


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Originally Posted By: rharv
What is the proprietary format file extension?
just curious

Not really a valid question.

FOSTEX used a few. All were compression algorithms designed to conserve drive space. Some recorders could also save files as 44.1/16 .wav including my FD8 in Mastering mode (required for using an ADAT converter to record 8 tracks), otherwise Normal mode used ADAC.
SOS Review FD8
FDMS and FDMs3 were earlier compression schemes. These were stored on the drive and you accessed them as audio from the recorder. If you hooked the drives or diskettes up to your computer, there was nothing that could read them.

The MR series stored files on removable CF cards (if you could keep the pins from getting bent). By using the aforementioned Wav Mgr app, you could import the files as 44.1/16 .wav from the CF card. It was the only way to import files recorded to the proprietary Extended mode but Songs recorded in Normal mode allowed Mac owners to just drag to the desktop (the USB port worked with PCs only).
SOS Review MR8

I bought and sold many FD8s over the years and was able to trick them into accessing 6GB on a 2.5" ATA drive. FOSTEX only supported up to 2GB on an internal hard drive or SyQuest externals. A MOTU 2408 in standalone mode was my analog to ADAT converter. With a Mackie 1604 mixer, it took up a card table, didn't weigh that much and was, by far, the most portable 8 channel recording rig that I could buy—or even imagine—23 years ago. That, of course, changed a few years later.

FOSTEX never got the firmware right on the original MR8. I bought mine 19 years ago but found it to be less than satisfactory. It's on perma-loan to a buddy and I never, ever want to see it again.



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We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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