When I started using BIAB someone wisely suggested that until I feel comfortable with the program, I don't try and use loops and repeats, but simply record my compositions as one long piece of music, copying and pasting all the sections.
But there is at least one problem with that scenario - BIAB puts in different arrangements for each verse/chorus. Sometimes this can be interesting, but often it's quite annoying.
Could someone please provide me with an overview of how I set up a song (in terms of what to set for the song and how to construct it)?
Can we please take as an example a song that has:
1. An intro including an auto start
2. A verse
3. A slightly different verse
4. A chorus
5. The original verse repeated
6. A bridge
7. The chorus repeated
8. An outtro including an auto-ending
Once I have a model to work on, I ought to be able to apply it to other situations.
My added problem is that I'm not musically trained, so although I know how the double dots indicate a repeated section and that you can then send the player al coda to another point in the sequence, I'm not familiar with other musical terminology - so please make it simple.
If someone can help with this, it would be a good masterclass for other users!
Thanks
Phil
Hi Phil,
Here's a link to a PG Music tutorial that might get you started.
http://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_repeats.htmAlso, the below link will take you to some video tutorials that would be worth working through. (You'll need to scroll down the webpage a bit to get to the tutorial section.)
http://www.pgmusic.com/bbdemovideos1.htmAll the best,
Noel
Thanks Noel...
...for being the one person out of the 106 people who looked at the post who took the trouble to reply!
Yes, I am aware of the video tutorials and have used many of them - but they are so unclearly named, without a list of contents, that I always give up at the first hurdle when I'm trying to find something specific. PG - would it be possible to create a more thorough index of what's included in them rather than cryptic headings like: "Using Some Newer Features...".
I had looked at the tutorial you linked to, but have to confess I found it too baffling to follow, and that's why I posted here. I can now understand why others on the board advised me to work without repeats to begin with. This is yet another example of BIAB doing something in probably the most complex way possible! Why isn't it possible to select a series of bars with the mouse, right click and select from a menu, without having to go through all the dialogues??! But that's not your fault of course - you're just trying to be helpful - for which I'm grateful.
Can you or anyone please give me an overview presented in a simpler way? I think the fact that over 100 people looked at the post might suggest that there are a lot of people out there who were hoping for some insight into a simpler way of doing it!
Thanks again Noel.
PS: Just taken a look at your SongU page. I love your songs - or at least the three I could access in the popup player. I was a SongU member last year, but had to give up due to the high costs. Pity.
Phil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for listening to some songs. Glad to hear they worked for you.
I don't use repeats, tags, DS al segno, etc. Because of this, I can't offer any help other than those links.
The reason that I have never played around with repeats, etc., is because I like to work on my whole song as a single chorus. I feel that this gives me much more control over part markers, where I want drum breaks, and other music nuances. I've found it very easy to simply copy and paste chord progressions. Also, I type my chords in and I find that entering them that way is incredibly quick.
For the song format that you've outlined above, I'd ...
1) Enter chords for the intro (probably 3 or 4 bars which means I type in only 4 or 5 chords).
2) Enter chords for verse 1. I'd have a blue part marker for the first bar of verse 1.
2) Put a blue part marker for the first bar of verse 2. Copy verse 1 chords and paste them into verse 2.
3) Put a green part marker for the first bar of the chorus.
4) Type in chords for the chorus.
5) Enter a blue part marker (or possibly green - depending on the song) for the first bar of verse 3. Copy verse 1 chords and paste into verse 3.
6) Have a blue part marker at the start of the bridge. Type in chords for the bridge.
7) Green part marker for the start of the chorus. Copy and paste chords from the first chorus into this chorus.
8) Put a green part marker at the beginning of the outro. Enter the outro chords.
All up, this would take me between 5 and 10 mins. Now if I decide I want additional drums breaks, I simply add part markers since drum breaks will occur in the bar before the part marker.
I know that the above doesn't answer your question and it might be that you know all this stuff already, but, then again, maybe it's useful information for someone who reads the post.
All the best,
Noel
Phil,
When I lay out a song in BB, I initially like to have it all on one screen in order to see the song in its entirety. As such, repeats, 1st/2nd endings, tags, and choruses all provide a quick overview so I know what goes where- soloists, changes, etc. This way I don't have to scroll up and down 3 or 4 screens.
It looks good, but playback can be problematic:
The repeats repeat but don't play back properly instrument-wise. At least that is my experience and why I invoke repeats only if the actual notation is required.
I finally got a grip on 1st/2nd endings and tags, but any changes made after they've been set up create additional difficulties.
Other users may not run into these problems.
So unless the tune is very basic, I usually end up unfolding it in the end.
BB can be frustrating at times, but for me it is indispensable.
Percy
Click the (S) song button to open the song set up menu. You will see "Vary or variation during playback in middle choruses," something like that. Unchecking that should help get your arrangement closer to what you are looking for.
Trax
Sorry for the delay in coming back to you guys - I've not been around.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
I'm disappointed to hear that loops and repeats can be problematic in playback. I was looking forward to using them. Now I'm not so sure.
Thanks Trax for your suggestion, but I have "Vary style in middle choruses" and "Allow embellishment of chords" unchecked as default in all songs already. Yet I still can't get BIAB to handle it the same throughout.
Another question I have is how does BIAB know that it's starting a new chorus? Should I be marking it in some way? I use part markers throughout as a style function, so that can't be what triggers the program to act differently.
If PG is listening - can I propose again the option to freeze the whole song, and then unfreeze specific bars and just regenerate them individually. It would take more work, but then it would be possible to select the variations you want with more control.
Anyone else think this would be helpful?
Phil
Hi Phil,
Yes, there has been mention of wanting to be able to regenerate small highlighted parts of a track only in BiaB as we can already do in RealBand. The Wishlist Forum is the place to make your voice heard and I suggest you post that wish over there, where the development team will be able to easily find it when looking at suggeastions that might get implemented in future versions.
As for your current dilemma, make sure that all part markers are Blue and not Green if all you want to hear is the A substyle throughout.
If BB is still applying the B Substyle to the inside choruses after doing the above and the Preferences checkbox to Vary Styles in Middle Choruses is unchecked, it might be time to try the Return to Factory Settings command in the Options menu as sometimes the internal settings file gets corrupted.
--Mac
Hi Phil, the reason you've had over a hundred views and only a few answers is this:
Quote:
My added problem is that I'm not musically trained
And this:
Quote:
I had looked at the tutorial you linked to, but have to confess I found it too baffling to follow
Biab was created by musicians for 'mostly' musicians. Peter Gannon, his brother Oliver and most of the good folks at PG HQ are highly trained players. They try to make the program as user friendly as possible but still, you need to know basic music concepts. The tutorials are explained in musical terms too. Without that basic knowledge most of us look at your questions and just pass, it's too much to try to explain.
As you already know you can still use and have fun with the program with limited musical knowledge but when you want to move up to the more technical aspects of song creation you need to know a bit more about music. One thing to keep in mind is Biab is used the world over in music schools and colleges as a teaching tool. There are many things hidden within the program to help you there.
Bob
Well trained musician or total newbie to the thing, Band in a Box is a program that takes TIME and practice on your part in order to do things with it.
A little bit each day is the way to go about this.
Matter of fact, I compare Band in a Box to picking up a musical instrument and trying to play it. Let's say you just bought your first guitar. Would you realistically expect to be able to pick it up and play it like a pro - or even play it at all - immediately?
The video tutorials, the included Demo Songs (a lot can be learned by loading the Demo Songs and watching BiaB as they play back), the Help files and then, if you encounter a specific and particular situation, this forum.
The important part of the daily practice approach is to do it in short sessions where you don't become frustrated - and to try to HAVE FUN with the thing at all times, that last bit of having fun can be important to how fast one gets through the initial learning curve.
Have Fun,
--Mac
Build the song as one big chorus and then try breaking the song into pieces. The repeats, DS, endings are just affect the printing of the fake book. They do not do anything to the song. You can make a real mess of the reats and the song will happily play what you originally created.
There are lots of bugs in the fake printing. 3rd and 4th endings don't work properly. you can't have a ds within a repeat (ie go here at the end of the repeat)
You can have variations in the notes of a 'verse' typically to allow for added words, but BIAB only print the notes from the first pass. Good fake music will usually show the added notes in brackets.
Many members of this forum do not use these options and often say that BIAB is designed to accompany the user, not to provide printed music. But if it is part of the software, as it has been for many years, it needs to be given the same consideration as any of the options in BIAB.
Fake Printing needs a complete rewrite.