This is painful. I'm hoping that there are a good handful of those who routinely use an external keyboard (and its own internal sounds) vs. the Vsti and/or Dxi stuff that is virtual/soft synth.

At this point in my experience, I'm either doing something wrong (likely) or I'm just not all that impressed with the VSC that comes packaged. I'm not sure yet, but I don't think I'm accessing the upper banks...just the standard 128 (might have something to do with GM2 mode).

I am spoiled I suppose, having grown very fond of the Motif's superior library of very, very good sounds.

I would love to learn how to implement/use the Motif's sounds for any of BB's midi tracks as they occur.

I do have some understanding of the Motif's multitimbral mode (in song or pattern mode) I can dial in any 16 patches I desire (patch 1, ch1; patch 2, ch2 etc). Using my DAW, it's very simple and the tracks follow the channel assignments according to midi input channel (I have one actual, and the DAW has the ability to create additional "virtual" midi inputs to accomodate the other 15 I need).

Anyhow, this is old hat and very familiar with most who dabble in this arena.

However, the confusion starts for me here: How do I (or can I) set up the Motif to interpret the patch changes needed/required by BB for a said song and/or style?

There is a tutorial in FAQ that covers the Patch Map thing...and let me tell you, I am NOT that guy who can do it...nor do I have the time to create some 1500 routings of sounds for the Motif (that's a guess btw, it's probably more). I did check, and the only Yamaha product that someone created a patch for was I think the ES model (I have the XS).

Further, as confused and untested as this is for me, I'm not even sure I NEED a patch map.

Heck, maybe I'll just set my Motif up in a multitimbral mode...dabble in BB's SEQ mode, and see what happens...(that could be dangerous LOL).

Maybe I can just will it to happen all by itself? Uh, yeah.

Some help or direction would be great.

Then again...RB would probably solve all of this much easier...just generate the basic midi track, drag/drop it over...get it talking with the Motif, and dial in the instrument patch I want right there for which ever channel...

Thanks in advance,
Eric

FLAN.
some ideas.
1. for sophisticated sequencing of the nature you seem to want ,
its prolly best to use RB.
think of things simply this way.
if you build a house you do foundation work, then gradually build the house up and
add all the pretty stuff the wife wants.
so think of biab as doing the foundation for example n then import the biab foundation
into RB n complete the song house.
2. re your motif , in RB you have lots of traks to play with midi wise.
i dont have a motif , but the key with midi is to link a midi trak and its
midi channel in the trak to the external synth midi channel receive.
so lets say you have in RB midi ch 1 as piano , and midi channel 5 as sax lets say.
on your motif prolly you need to set up in the motif ch 1 receive with patch for piano,
and ch5 receive with patch for sax sorta idea.
whatever daw software you use youll need to set up your midi channels on the midi traks
properly and your motif midi channels n patches appropriately.
i seem to remember there are others with motif..
so hopefully youll get further info to make things easier re patches etc.

The VSC/DXi is not bad but does leave something to be desired. I use the Coyote Forte that PG sells for my midi parts and it does a much nicer job. You can download a 30 day demo and try it out at no cost. I'm not sure what instruments you don't like but keep in mind that BIAB has RealDrums and RealTracks that are actual recorded loops of those instruments. They do quite a good job as backing tracks and the RealTrack soloists are pretty nice too. I'm sure more will be released in time. I very rarely use Midi now unless for custom passages.

You may be able to find a patch map for your Yamaha by searching the web. Having created a custom patch map for my Kawai keyboard, it can be frustrating and time comsuming. Perhaps the XS patches you need would work using the ES patch map. Worth a try?

R

P.S. Keep in mind that only the Melody and Soloist tracks can be customized as the other tracks are reserved by BIAB. You'll have to set those to Multichannel to use with more than one instrument.

Thank you both.

I believe Manning is probably on the right path of least insanity.

BB can generate the basic groove (if using midi that is), then I can bring that into the DAW and assign a voice of choice to it at will.

Rachael, I'm totally with you...and prefer the real tracks myself (as far as quality goes). Midi can nearly fool people, as the power of realism often (actually always) lies in two main things: The programing finesse of said midi writer/player/programmer, and of course the quality of the sound module itself (huge part to play there). I often marry both, if not all the time...Midi is great, and so is audio.

Imagine the sounds of Atari 30 years ago. Same info, different engine.

Thanks again,
Eric

I looked up the Motif XS and it has a GM sound bank. Put it into GM mode and Biab will simply play it, no patch map necessary. That will get you started. The GM bank is probably much, much better than the VSC and you never know, it might really be good and it's all you need. Later you can look into using other patches.

Bob

FLAN - I'm not a techie but I use an external midi synth - Yammie DB50XG. It shows up under BIAB Midi Input, and is listed under Win XP3 as the midi external input too.
It gives me more than the available GM Basic sounds. I access the patches using the MSB and LSB for each XG sound. This info should be avail in Motif manual. I noticed BIAB only has the Motif ES in the soundcard list. There must similar voices between the XS and ES.

What I do in BIAB to keep the program from reverting to the basic GM voices, I enter the MSB and LSB for each patch I want and then save under Save Song With Patches and Harmonies. This retains the "voice" I want.

Hope that helps - web page - There's more about the Motif XS, MSB and LSB - on this FL Forum - may be helpful.

As I said I'm no techie, but here's hoping there's a solution somewhere in the forum.

Cheers - Ian

"this is painful"

Hi Eric,
What Bob (jazzmammal) said. Also, what you said (toward the last of your post). lol

A little pep talk for you.

As you well know, you have a very powerful synth there, and the complexity that goes with it. Don't allow yourself the luxury of becoming frustrated with it!!!! Allocate the time, get a yellow pad and pencil and take the time to write on that pad as you go. Start with a specific thing you want to do, such as "hook up the Motif to play its GM bank from BIAB" and write that on the pad first. Then take good notes as you do it. Sooner or later, you'll know your way around that mo just like this guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGS_O0LRnCA

Here's a good article if you haven't read it already. http://www.tweakheadz.com/reviews/review_of_the_motif_xs.htm

Later,
Jim

There are a couple Motif patch maps in the support area.
http://www.pgmusic.com/support_miscellaneous.htm
Try one. Just copy your patches file under a different name (to keep it safe), and then install the new one. Often it just adds to the basic one you are using now. So you should always still have what you have now, but may be able to also select the patches for the Motif...
I read this in a comparison review-
"Did you notice that most of the sounds on the ES6 are on the XS6? ... with almost the exact voices/ patches as the ES6.?"
So it may be worth checking out...

Otherwise definately try using the Motif in GM Mode. You may like the sounds just fine, and be more comfortable just changing an occasional patch to a 'special' one when needed. If you want to take it easy and slow, try that route first.

Thanks to all again...

Ian, I may pursue your path at some point...will have to research the MSB/LSB methodology.

Jazzmammal: The Motif does not explicitly have a GM mode. It does have a GM sound bank (one of 16).

Still unclear as to how BB can tell the Motif to dial in any one of a combination of 16 patches if it (the Motif) is not set in one of its multi-timbral modes (song or pattern).

So many mysteries, so little time.

Thanks again everyone...I will be tinkering.

Regards,
Eric

Jim...ha, you're right, I've seen Bert before (in other Motif demo vids)...he is an absolute maniac...I love his enthusiasm.

Makes it look so easy.

Sometimes I could strangle the guy...ha.

Probably no better person for the job.

Hi, Eric -

We stop in Frostburg to get gas in the car every time we go visit our son at WVU. Usually at the Sheetz just off the interstate. It really does seem to be 10 degrees colder than the surrounding areas.

Good luck with the Motif.

Eric,
I use Korg external synths, a PA80 and a PA800. A Patch Map in Band In A Box will allow you access to all the 'Non-GM' sounds in the keyboard, very much like the additional sounds in the Motif. Now, Yamaha has always done some weird stuff as far as external sequencers are concerned, at least to me, and I'm not really sure how to navigate the Motif. I've always heard it was one of the hardest of the Yamaha synths to work with, but once you figure it out, it's a breeze.

Synth sounds are stored in Banks, usually of 128 sounds per bank. If the synth has more than 128 sounds, then those sounds are stored in different banks. To access those sounds, you need access to that bank. Depending on the synth manufacturer, *how* you get to those sound varies.

Imagine your Grand Piano as one sound, your Stereo Grand Piano as another sound, and your General MIDI Acoustic Piano as a third sound. Now, General MIDI, among other things, defines a standard 'patch map' for sounds, so on any synth that is GM capable, the Acoustic Piano will always be the first patch, the Acoustic Bass will be number 33, and the Tenor Sax will always be number 67. These are often called Program Change or Patch numbers. Now, the Yamaha may have sounds that are not in the General MIDI sound set, i.e., the Grand Piano and the Stereo Grand Piano. By the way, I'm just making those up for descriptive purposes. Each sound as a unique address. It is made up of three parts, the Bank MSB, the Bank LSB, and the Program Change. So, the Bank MSB is the State, the Bank LSB is the city, and the Program Change is the street address. All three are needed to send information to that sound.

The Band In A Box patch map is a list of those addresses. You use it within Band In A Box to select non-GM and non-GM2 sounds. Now, for something like the Motif ES line, for the Preset Banks 1-6, and User 1 and 2, the Bank MSB is always 63, and the Bank LSB changes from 1-9 (except 6 and 7). The GM bank is Bank MSB 0 and Bank LSB 0. So, in Band in a Box if you wanted to select the GosplSplit organ sound, instead of going to Presets 2, A03, you would put in BankMSB 63, BankLSB 1 and then select 3. Electric Grand Piano from the drop down menu for sounds. Ignore the 'Electric Grand Piano' part, all you're interested in is the '3' part. Then, whatever part you've selected for that should play the GosplSplit organ sound.

Does this help you any? When you create the Patch Map, you can press the '+' button the left of the instrument pull down, and you can put in the Patch Map. From there, all of your patches will be listed, and you can just select the one you want, instead of looking around for the MSB and LSB values, because they'll already be in the Patch map that's been created.

Gary

JFord: Neat...small world sometimes. My family is from here. I've been half way around the world (in the Navy) and back...ended up gettin' married and landed a job at the ol' ABL (now ATK) Plant...6 yrs and 2 kids later...you know the story.

Well, elevation is everything, about ~850ft higher than Cumberland I think.

I love the simplicity of this place...I'm not one for the big city (been there)...especially with children to raise.

Frostburg is a jewel...though a tad boring...but again, kids fill in most moments of any down time one might have...no time to actually get bored...LOL

Regards,
Eric

Quote:

---

When you create the Patch Map, you can press the '+' button the left of the instrument pull down, and you can put in the Patch Map. From there, all of your patches will be listed, and you can just select the one you want, instead of looking around for the MSB and LSB values, because they'll already be in the Patch map that's been created.

---

Hi Gary, of course I'll have to research this patch map thing...but I'm trying to say, I do not have the time to create a thorough one...however your comment does spur yet another question.

This mysterious + button.

If I can make quick patches on the fly (as time goes on) in this way, this would seem to be the berries.

Only thing I'd have to do is break out the Motif's data list and hunt down the MSB/LSB/PC numbers for said sound (but then again, you say I wouldn't have to do this, unless you're assuming I have made the patch map in totality).

Not sure how to get to the instrument pull down (as to where it is exactly)...just yet...there's a good many menus to get acquainted with...so pls forgive my current ignorance.

Still gettin' my toes wet.

Thanks again for even MORE insight!

Regards,
Eric