MUST people do this???? JUST to keep your song on the first page? Write another song!!

There is a thread now that has been bumped back to the top 30 times. Talk about insecure!! Send you little thank you notes by PM so one of the other 17 million users can have his song seen by the forums. There should actually be policy about this.

/off soapbox

Unabashed self promotion.....

There's a secret to it.... I won't tell who told me this little tid bit.

1. Write a song and post it.

2. wait for half a dozen comments.

3. reply to 3 individually on the first day, so it seems like you're really making an effort to reply to everyone but just ran out of time.

4. resist the urge to reply to the next ONE until the next day

5. reply individually to a few more the next day

6. reply to one per day or every other day as needed to "bump" the song back to page 1.

7. repeat step 6 until it's obvious what you're doing can no longer bump the song.

Hopefully by now, you're working on another song. Post on a Friday so there's all weekend to pick up new posts..... now.... do it all over again....

Is that what you're talking about Eddie?

YUP!!! When I look at a post and literally every other reply is from the songwriter, that is obviously just to keep it at the top of the page. Let's be fair here. Songs run their course. Move on and write another one.

Wait a week after the original posting then post ONE reply thanking everybody for their feedback and move on to the next song. If the song is memorable, people will bookmark it and go back to listen again and again. If you feel the need to thank everyone individually do it in PMs.

Well observed, as well as comments like,
"your best to date, another masterpiece, my favourite of yours to date, this is a keeper, this is fantastic,
you have surpassed your self this time.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the songs are fantastic, but it would be better to have some genuine critique rather than have the person continue on with the same mistakes,

its mainly a case of,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEM6_s9ux0

Axey

I think if enough of us wanted it PG music could change the way the user showcase forum works so that it lists posts in a “first in first out” basis... like they do on FAWM songs.

Or just put a limit on how many times an original poster can reply. That one is now up to 34 replies from the OP. That is blatant.

I see absolutely nothing “wrong” with keeping your post on the front page long enough for regular members to see it before it drops off. And casual visitors likely only peruse the first page. And if one has been bounced a zillion times it’s still only one line on a screen full of many Not much effort required to ignore it.

And regarding a “one thank you fits all”...often thoughtful listeners leave remarks that can be better addressed individually.

The problem IMO resides with folks who drop multiple songs within a week or even a day and then never respond to anything but their own posts. It’s hard to imagine that a post that is bounced multiple times could be more objectionable than folks who repeatedly post and respond ONLY to their own - having no interest in actually participating in what I perceive as a cool community.

And as far as more rules go I’d rather see posters follow the existing stated forum protocols, e.g., include RTs, RDs used, effects, etc.

I don't have a problem with it either for all the reasons Bud states.

I also find the people that just dump songs without ever taking the time to listen to other peoples songs much more annoying, it shows that they only care about their own work and have no interest in what other people are doing.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bud and Dave!!!

BUMP!


On the submission I had in the past I would try and wait until a few replies were made and created a single reply with my responses to each of them. That keeps the self-spamming down a little IMHO.

And that exactly fits the one that got the hairs on the back of my neck to stand up. 34 replies on a post with only 2x that many replies. Sometimes 5 and 6 in a row.

^^^ That. ^^^

Reply once every few days. I find it extremely selfish to try and commandeer the song submission post this way. So much so it could be off-putting enough to possibly chase people away.

For perspective, I suppose if you wrote one song a year I get it, but in the spirit of fair play, stop it.

I should also add that part of my position on this topic is in line with my attitude toward what I want to play on stage. And that goes something like "This is what I am going to play. You can like it or not like it, but this is what I am going to play. I am happy with what I choose to play for you whether you like it or not, and you will. Don't bring your requests up here because I am not going to play them anyway." In context, "Listen to my song, don't listen to my song. I don't care because I am not changing it for you anyway. I appreciate input, but I am not likely to change what I do." I am still getting plays on a song that was posted 8 weeks ago. I don't know if it's even on the forum anymore, nor will I look. It doesn't matter. Otherwise stated, I write for ME. It's NICE if other people like my stuff, but I am not going to the garage to hang myself if they don't. I know in my heart I am a pretty good writer and I am not going to embark on an obvious, transparent campaign for plays.

I DO walk that fine line between confident and arrogant..... don't I? That's why I'm so popular. (Is there a sarcasm emoticon?)

Maybe we should see how many folks would like to see the forum not to “bump” a post for a reply by the original poster?

I agree.

I don't get on the showcase forum as often as I would like so if this happened I would miss a lot of good songs. I would like PGMusic to keep those songs that one hasn't listened to in bold or black lettering and the ones they have in regular or gray lettering from log in to log in. If they did this then your suggestion would work also.

I don't this (the horse video) is the case here. Most of us are hobbyist at best and doing this just for fun. If one wants their music critiqued they should join a professional service and have the pros do it. YMMV

Also if you can't get on the showcase forum as frequently as you would like most likely what you would have said already has been stated. So short statements like the ones you mentioned are appropriate IMHO. Again YMMV

Interesting idea. I’ve only seen something like that done on one other forum (trumpet players) where they have cross-checking to prevent posting for-sale items until you’ve made five substantive regular posts. I somehow think this (a hard limit, or maybe a date limitation) would be hard to implement, but if it could be done, then +1

Fortunately, any negativity and mockery that appears in these forums largely remains in the Off Topic forum.
Could be one of the reasons it is a lot less active than it used to be.

On the other hand, the Showcase continues to attract more and more users.
It is warm, inviting, encouraging.
Obviously, the people who make it that way are good with the "way it works" - as demonstrated by their posts in this thread.

"Self promotion" is not shameful.
It is the nature of the music business today.
And practiced (heavily) by many in this thread who are suggesting there is "something wrong" in the Showcase.
Should we talk about hypocrisy now?

I can only speak for me but I have never responded 36 times to my own post (out of 76 total replies - simple math) to keep it on the top of the list. Nor would I.

On the very rare occasion I’ve posted a song here, I’ve received lots of questions. Thinking out loud, how would it ‘count’ to answer them?

That would probably be a forum mod decision. My point is only that when one when full page of a post is replies from the originally poster, that is excessive. In your example, if I had a question like "What particular variation of Latin rhythm is that", I would ask in private anyway. But that's me. A lot of people know nothing more about using a computer than "hit the reply button".

Accepting that I am a fairly crusty SOB, it may be only me who takes exception to someone being so transparent that it matters SO MUCH that their song stay on page one. After 8-10 days, it's over and time to post a new song.

I take exception to a lot of things in life that others don't care about. Drive in the left lane in front of me some time and go exactly the speed limit. You will have ample opportunity to guess what pitch my horn is. Others don't care about someone blocking the fast lane on the highway. I do. In fact I believe I invented road rage back in the 60s.

See? Crusty.

We like things just as they are. It's an internet forum. It should not join the transient social media movement. I don't care if somebody wants to bump their post to their heart's desire. I have a choice...open it or don't. What is the big deal? Just ignore it if you think it not appropriate. I gotta be missing something here...a situation for which I have ample precedent

Bud

PS I've been an admin on a board and a moderator for years on a very large board with much more activity than here. The notion of limiting an OP's subsequent posts never came up.

Eddie, brace yourself, I kinda agree with you on part of this!

I rarely visit the showcase but when I have I always find it frustrating when an old song is at the top of the list just because somebody bumped it. I don't care who bumped it, the songwriter or someone who commented, but when I'm looking for the latest stuff it is hard to find in the showcase.

As for the songwriter commenting on each comment or doing it in a single post I really don't care. I think it is perfectly reasonable when you receive a public comment to respond publicly. And I think "attaboy/girl" comments are just fine since we can't expect full critiques here.

My bottom line is I agree with JoanneCooper that this should be set up so the last song submitted is at the top of the list and all songs are in order of submission regardless of the comments. If it was like this I'd visit from time to time to see new stuff and maybe even post an "attaboy/girl"!

Really?

I have a hard time "keeping up there" because of the number of new songs appearing on a daily basis.
The alternate model could easily and would result in a new song disappearing from the opening page often in less than 24 hours. Folks new to forum and folks with limited time would never see it.

Also PG Music features songs on their opening page under Hot Topics and on facebook and this can also result in "bumping" as they stay on the featured page for sometimes a week.

With all due respect I see all this as a solution for which there is no problem.

OK, off to bump a few

Bud

PS If you haven't been around there are quite a few new posters.

Well, I'll admit I have not even looked there in a long time so maybe I'm wrong but when I first started with BIAB I'd find the same songs I had already checked out kept appearing at the top of the list because of how the forum works. On other music sites where the last song in is the first in the list I find that a lot easier.

Dude, that's like twice this year we agreed on something!!!

Usually, you are wrong....

Actually, as Bud just pointed out, I'm wrong when I agree with you!

Ok, so to illustrate my point, I just went to the showcase for the first time in a loooong time. And I found that, of the first 10 songs, only one was posted today! The rest are from yesterday, a few days ago and even as far back as a couple of weeks ago! I'd rather see what was posted today followed by yesterday and so on!

Is there a setting maybe where I could order posts by original submission date instead of by latest comment date?

Let's just say you are one of the people who DO care if their song is on page one or page 2, because it's pretty much a given that visitors don't check beyond page 1. Would YOU like to be the one, again assuming you care about such things for sake of discussion, whose post was last and was bumped to page 2 because of yet another gratuitous post bump to a 3 or 4 week old post?



Limiting the number of posts would not be necessary if on that one forum a banal reply would not change the priority and move it to the top of the pile. That is kind of what Joanne said as well. Leave then chronological.

For me, I scroll through until there are no more new posts. If I see a new song posted by a writer with whom I am familiar, I will listen. Depending on how much time I am willing to spend I listen to a few from people I don't know as well. After all that's the only way to learn who is good and who isn't. And I will leave honest, constructive criticism. When it includes "maybe consider trying this on the next one" type criticism, that goes in private.

J*3
I am only an occasional participant in the user show case and my the problem is compounded. I sometimes listen on the go on my phone and so I don’t comment when I listen (typing on my phone is not always easy).

Then I see an “oldish” song at the top of the forum and I can’t remember whether I commented or not and have to go through 20 pages of comments to look for my own comment so as to not look like an idiot by posting two comments on the same song....maybe that is just me though (being a bit scatty).

I also think the way that the forum currently works “could” put new participants off rather than encourage them ... (but that is just a theory and we would have to hear the opinion of some new participants)

See the attachment below. It looks like there's a feature to sort this at the bottom of the forum page.

When I set that up however, it appears to not have worked correctly.

Maybe the forum moderators could take a look at that feature.

Steve, it does work correctly if you remember to hit the change button. The answer was there all along. All the new posts are in order. I personally will never use this feature as I like things as they are. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

And you have to take that setup step every time you visit the web page. I tested and it works but does not retain the sort option.

Ok, so here is a solution.

1) Copy the link below or go to it by clicking it.
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=50&page=1&sort=start

2) Once there set that as a new shortcut in your browser.

3) Now, every time you wish to view the showcase in the order of latest post first (ignoring those "bumpy" commented posts), just click your new shortcut. It should stay sorted as long as you stay on the showcase thread.

4) And when you wish to view the forum sections normally just click around as usual.

Eddie, you have to admit you like me a little bit better now, right?

First rule of the streets, admit to nothing....

Floyd, I totally agree.

Here's my take on this thread...

The Users Showcase forum began in 2010 and since that time it has grown and grown and grown. As I see it, the reason it's so popular now is because users feel confident that they can post a song and that the responses to their song will be respectful and that the person posting will not be singled out for ridicule.

• In other words, people feel safe when they use Users Showcase.

The reason for the forum's success is largely because of long-time regulars who take the time to respond to the work of others. In 2017, long-time users who regularly commented on the work of others were:


Throughout 2017, most of these people spent a significant amount of time showing that they care. They collectively offered heaps of encouraging comments and made people feel welcomed and valued. Over the years, there have been many others who have also given considerable time and energy to the forum.

It is not an accident that in the above list, most of the forum's top song-posters in 2017 are also found. People who visit Users Showcase respect the above list of long-time forumites EXACTLY because of the way that they respond to those who post songs as well as the way that they respond to other users who listen to the songs these regulars posts.

• Users Showcase is a not simply a forum, it’s a neighbourhood.

Because of this, posts and sequences of posts within a thread are more like conversation than commentary or critique. Also because of this, each individual poster who creates a thread should be able to conduct their conversation in whatever way they want. Everyone who uses the forum is free to treat it however they wish. It never has been a 'one size fits all' scenario.

• It seems to me that what is being criticised in this thread is the mechanics that has made Users Showcase so popular.

Almost everyone who posts in the Showcase forum submits the very best work that they know how to prepare. Their effort is considerable and the above list of regulars have taken time to applaud individuals' achievements. Many in the above list also provide the forum with some of the most impressive work that uses PG Music products.

• Shouldn't these people be commended rather than criticised?
• Aren't the above regulars setting a positive tone for PG Music and the company's products?
• Haven't these long-time users earnt enough right and respect to maintain any thread that they create in whatever way they see fit?

Any way I look at it, the reason that Users Showcase continues to grow positively and as a huge credit to PG Music is because of the way it presently operates and because of ALL the long-time users who take the time and make the effort to keep Users Showcase a generous and pleasant neighbourhood to visit.

....end of my take on it.

Regards,
Noel

Eddie, you keep replying to people individually and it bumps your post up. Send them a PM dude.

How do you know I'm not? I will refrain from adding the word I wanted to add because it would have been all asterisks anyway.

Hi Eddie.

Fascinating thread.
I think the keys here are courtesy and common sense.
Some exercise them. Some don't.

"each individual poster who creates a thread should be able to conduct their conversation in whatever way they want." - Good one Noel.

I like to reply to each comment individually - I do it because I want to.
I like to comment on the odd song (not all) - if and when I feel like it.
I try not to tell other people what they should be doing.

Cheers.

<<< "...Then I see an “oldish” song at the top of the forum and I can’t remember whether I commented or not and have to go through 20 pages of comments to look for my own comment ">>>

A quick way to check on what post you've commented on and which you haven't: If you are signed in, from the drop down menu of 'MY STUFF' select POSTS. From that window, select 'MY POSTS' and you can sort the columns so that all the USER FORUM posts are together and any song you see, you've posted to....

I also use this feature when I'm in a rush to quickly check only the threads I've commented on and see if anyone has responded.

What is more frustrating to me than having to skip a post in the User Showcase that's been bumped is taking time to detail out a question or technique assisting someone having difficulty and they post a question or problem and they never come back to the post to let the forum know if it worked for them or provide any feedback. There is currently a thread created in another section of the forum where the poster posed a question, there are seven replies over a period of four days, including one from PGMusic staff and the original poster has never returned back to comment beyond asking the question. It's an interesting question that could help many forum members and could go into several different directions according to what the OP is trying to accomplish. But there's no direction from the OP. It's the opposite of the problem some have with bumping - rather than saying too much, well, let's just say there's no fun talking to yourself....

Methinks Mr. Noel has set the piano on fire and exited the stage!

That sounds like it could have been a scene reminiscent of "Gone With The Wind" and the burning of Atlanta!

But no... the piano is still quietly gathering dust in the living room Since BIAB came into my life, I haven't played it too much.

First of all let me say that I greatly appreciate each and every one here who makes this forum what it is!!! There are so many talented folks contributing to this group that it’s mind boggling! I have never made a negative type post here of any kind and I won’t start now! I will however, share some of my thoughts on this subject.
When someone takes valuable time out of their day to listen and comment on my material I feel like they deserve a personal response from me. It’s not an ego thing, it’s a courtesy! I will never make any apologies for this! Each of us have our own method and I judge no one. I will however state that when I spend (usually) about 2 weeks working on a song I would like it to have an opportunity to have some exposure for more than a day or 2. Anyone who puts this amount of effort into their work surely has similar sentiments. This forum is a great place to hang out and I would hate to see it devolve into something that’s negative and unpleasant. If it does, then I will spend my time elsewhere...life is too short for that nonsense! Let’s enjoy our music and not be bitter! Everyone keep on rockin ‘

I was alluding to a story, I’m sure apocryphal, about Jerry Lee Lewis. Supposedly after a magnificent performance he set his piano on fire and as he left the stage he told the next act to “follow that!” All meaning I thought your response well stated the feelings of many User Showcase folks.

Hey, my upright bass resides in a living room corner. It’s so much easier to just move a few notes around in the DAW and get what I want with a RT!

Bud

Lol, I usually just type in ****'s. You mean it automatically does that?

Just to clarify, so you have been responding here AND sending them PM's? Man. I hadn't thought of that. You are thorough.

All the asterisk worthy stuff goes into PMs...

The horse video is funny.

EDIT: My below post is in response to a post that was deleted subsequent to my response.


The non-bump options have already been suggested here along with many responses as to why they would not help the User Showcase Community. Noel, Torrey and others summed it up very well - and eloquently. . All within this thread.

A non-bump option is very Facebook like if that’s one’s preference. Post it and in a day or two it’s buried (often by multiple song posts from folks who choose not to participate other than making their original posts. I think things are fine as is. I’d go so far as to say that a no bump protocol would in short order reduce the board’s participation exponentially.

The usual two cents, grains of salt and FWIWs all from likely the oldest forum member but hopefully not the grumpiest.

Bud

HORSES FOR COURSES

This whole "problem" has already been resolved!

For anyone who still has an issue with how it works (and it seems to be a really small minority), sslechta discovered the option to sort by post start date, tommyad verified it works and I provided an easy to use link you can set in your browser as a shortcut so you never have to change the setting manually!

1) Copy the link below or go to it by clicking it.
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=50&page=1&sort=start

2) Once there set that as a new shortcut in your browser.

3) Now, every time you wish to view the showcase in the order of latest post first (ignoring those "bumpy" commented posts), just click your new shortcut. It should stay sorted as long as you stay on the showcase thread.

4) And when you wish to view the forum sections normally just click around as usual.

BUMP! Thanks J3!

For what it worth... I record my listens in a LibreOffice Calc file (similar to Excel) including date, song, songwriter... When I get time to listen to a song, I will do a quick search to see if I have already listened to it... I also always record the next song so when I quit I have a new starting point... the next song up is "The Traveller" by BlueAttitude... it was on page 7 but who knows where I will find it

For some reason my post was cut short so I will the missing portion... I must admit, often times I'll listen, but not comment... forgive me & I will try to comment more, but most of you already know you're pretty dang good at writing songs!

My last comment on this topic will be this. While setting my view up to avoid the annoyance of people bumping their song to the top every 2 hours, that doesn't resolve them doing it. It just keeps me from seeing them do it. Thus I will refer to this as "ostriching" the issue. Anybody so desperate for adulation that they are going to fish for compliments that way needs a different kind of help.

Out.

The only solution I can think of is if the forum software has a setting that preserves the original posting order of songs by never bumping anything after a new reply. But would that really be desirable?

With so many people songs every day, every song would get buried in a few hours.

The current system isn't perfect, but it does tend to keep songs that are good enough to merit a lot of comments on page 1 or 2 for at least a few days.

Having your songs scroll away faster if nobody comments on them is also a good way to encourage newbies to participate in the commentary. If you don't listen and comment to other peoples songs, they won't listen and comment on yours, so they scroll away faster. Pretty simple form of positive reinforcement if you ask me.

Songs being bumped means there are lots of comments happening, which is the evidence that lots of people are participating in both directions. Healthy forum.

Stop being so rational, Pat.



Regards,

Bob

When half the comments are from the original poster, that's when I get irritated. If comments come from users, so be it. But gratuitous replies JUST to bump are just wrong, IMHO. That is just "end zone dancing" to draw attention. I never felt the need to do that.

We’re done here also. Gotta run over to the User Showcase, set the line, and fish for compliments regarding our new song. Regarding “needing help” we’e signed up for a support group for obsessive bumpers.

J&B

But you feel the need to disparage the majority who are happy with how the showcase works? And you just assume the worst of them that they are replying just for self-promotion? We told you how to resolve this "problem" for yourself but you have no interest because you would require it be changed for everyone instead.


I would submit that anyone so desperate to disparage others and force their minority opinion on the showcase might also need a different kind of help!

Bump


(Too soon?)

To me, the showcase is NOT like an "Elvis has left the building" concert. It's like a venue where people are still able to connect with you. When I performed live people were always coming up to me saying nice things. I never ignored a person just because I had already said thank you to the whole crowd and left the stage. No, I stopped, listened, smiled and thanked them on the spot where ever they walked up to me. I always thought every person who went out of their way to personally compliment my music deserved to know I appreciated them right there and then.

Not so different here depending on how one chooses to think about it. I still choose to feel that way when people comment on my songs whether it's on the song thread or something they'd rather say in a pm. I respond as soon as I can in kind. The showcase forum is fine as is for me.

P.S. - I think most newbies know how to scroll and explore other pages.

Probably the showcase is FINE for what it intends to do, showcase the songs to a close knit community, lets face it, the music business is very competitive and even if you have a good song, it is unlikely to get many plays on Youtube, if you showcased it there.

SO better to put it in the showcase where you WILL get people to praise it and say well done and clap you on the back. Some praise is better than NO praise, and no harm in that.

At the same time as I do have a good listen to showcase songs, it would be nice for someone to have the courage to say, Please try you songs a different way, there is one user in particular whose vocal setup in each song is always the same, and because of that all the songs mainly sound the same.

But people just praise praise praise, rather than subtly saying maybe try this way for a change.

But then the showcase has nice people in it and it seems they don't wish to offend.

And that is good in a way.

I agree with Josie. I don't assume that comment replies are gratuitous replies just to bump.

On the first page of the User Showcase, the song with the most views - 538 has 31 comments including replies since the posting on 4/30/18. To date, there were 15 comments, each with a reply from the artist. One comment was made earlier today with no reply yet posted. 15 comments in 19 days is not a very high percentage of viewers who take time to comment and I think it to be gracious to acknowledge a comment rather than gratuitous.

The song on the first page with the most comments only has a total of 46 comments and replies over a 10 day period. That's roughly two comments and replies per day.

You wouldn't think such a minor occurrence would elicit three pages of discussion over a 25 day period so it must strike a chord for both pro and con.

Well put Josie!



I think we all tend, at times, to forget PG Music's statement at the top of the forum which states in part:

"Indicate which tracks were recorded by you, and which tracks were generated by Band-in-a-Box or RealBand.

If Band-in-a-Box or RealBand have been used, please provide information as to which styles or RealTracks were used. (tip: In Band-in-a-Box, the Song Memo contains the names of the RealTracks used, and you can copy/paste from that.)

List other programs used in the production (Sonar, Cubase etc.)

Describe what effects were used in the production (reverb, auto-tune etc)."

As far as showcasing to a "close knit community" it can be much broader. When PG Music lists a showcase song as a "hot topic" on their splash page or when they add it to their featured SC playlist or when they mention it on facebook the number of listens goes considerably up and comments are made at soundcloud from a rather interesting and diverse group of folks.

There are plenty of places to showcase your songs but only one that is specifically for showing how you used PG Music's products. Regarding the "praise, praise, praise" if a poster asks for feedback regarding their vocal or the mix, etc., he or she will typically receive a lot. If they don't ask (for whatever reason) then responders rarely, and appropriately so IMO, delve into such. We love to hear a posted song that shines in all aspects but we also enjoy studying the RT's/RD's/Midi/MST's/FX, etc., that were used. There are many ways to approach it. FWIW, giant grains of sodium chloride, etc.



Indeed. It's just a repeated one line on an entire word filled website page!

Bud

Brothers and Sisters,

Yea I say unto thee, except that thou come to the forum as a small child knowing nothing, but saying sweet words, it would be better that a mill stone were tied around your neck and you were thrown from the top of your apartment building, chocking and screaming and spitting, until thou didst splatter on the street below with breaking of bones and tearing of flesh and die in thine own fury.

Ah yea, I also say verily unto you that whosoever has never bumped a post, even this one, then feel free to cast a stone, but if you have, it would be better that thou stickest thy finger in a light socket and die with screaming voltage bursting thine eye sockets like squashed tomatoes.

And yea, verily more, I say if thou art vain enough to stand in judgment and reproach protesting the vanity of others, and do so judge, then the judgment thou shalt reap will be more than a hundred fat camels sitting on your face.

And so I say unto thee, I must go bump one of my latest songs because Hear to Learn wants to hear from me, and it is far far better that I should bump a post than risk hurting the feelings of a tender and beloved friend.

And oh, one last thing:

I verily ask of thee:

Which is worst? To post one song a week and say nice things about thy brother, or to post 5 songs a day and say not one word that is not about thyself?

Think about it. Verily.

Shalom.

NOTE: This post was certified 100% outrageous, inappropriate, and unprovoked comedy by the U.S. Commission on Forum Posting. Its contents are not to be construed as serious, factual or meaningful in any way.

Which is worst? To post one song a week and say nice things about thy brother, or to post 5 songs a day and say not one word that is not about thyself?


eeeehhh!!!! let me think .

To keep posting bad songs every time again and again.


Have I answered right your majesty or should I just Bump.

I say go bump man.

Bump it hard. Bump it 'til it hurts.

Your wish is my command L.O.L..

Be good or ..?

Beat it?????

Let's change the terminology from bump to beat.

Then everybody can beat it harder on the forum.

Will that solve the problem Beatmaster???

Just beat it.

Going forward,all arguments on the forums should be decided by dance off; like in the beat it video.

I promise you, it would change the dynamic of disagreements on the forum.
(Fine David Snyder, you can come in playing a guitar solo on a forklift )

If anyone disagrees with that, it was MarioD's idea. Just don't ask him about it...he's shy on taking credit for great ideas.

I really can't take credit because of THIS

Ha! I so didn't see that coming! I was sitting here thinking to myself, "what could it be?"

That was funny!

bump

Who has the home court advantage here???

No one.

Fine David Snyder, you can come in playing a guitar solo on a forklift


Did you say come in playing guitar solo like a forklift...ahhh well David love..

love because in tennis, love means having a score of zero or nil.

The User Showcase forum post list is now sorted by 'topic start time' by default, and there is a setting at the top of the forum that will change it to sort by the time of the last post, which is what it was previously.

As you know there are additional settings at the bottom of the post list in the Display Options area. The sort settings are not sticky however, so the next time you visit the site it will be sorted by the default (which is currently topic start time for the User Showcase and Last Post Time for others).

Would you want a User Preference to set the default sort order of the User Showcase forums and/or all forums globally?

Because ONE person wanted it done that way and the majority didn't?? Doesn't make any sense to me, sorry.

I would be OK with just the edit on the User Showcase and leave the other forums as-is.

My immediate reaction was it would have been more suitable to make Last Post the default. Not only was the majority of posters ok with the status quo in the bump thread but it's my belief the overwhelming majority of people who access the Users Showcase are regular forum members who are there to catch up on threads they are following first and then check out newer listings.

I know, I know. You may have up to three that will protest the extra click they have to press if you reverse the order but they can be handled the same way as those who demand a single platform, 64 bit, VST based band in a box program audiophile version for $49.95 that has a button to auto generate the chords, lyrics, melody with lead and background vocals of a 'modern' country #1 chart song.

You could have avoided all this if PGMusic had just purchased a Sirius Satellite Radio Channel and moved the all newly converted 192/32 floating bit audio format songs of the Users Showcase and made David Snyder/Tater Tot the DJ.

A couple of members wanted this. And scores didn’t. We are extremely disappointed and do not feel that the User Forum will remain an inviting place to visit.

Look at the members you feature in hot topics. Look at the members you feature on facebook. Look at the songs you add to your featured playlist. Then look at who was complaining.

Bud,

You forgot to mention...

Look at who offers the most encouragement to song posters. Look at who offers the most help. Look at who takes time to make users feel welcome in the forum. Then have a read through this thread.

There are many ways to handle posts of songs and one way to thank others for commenting that does not artificially add to the number of comments. I don’t post songs here because I no longer use PG products but I’ve interacted with folk here for over 20 years so this feels like home.

In the February Album Writing Month community, it is considered bad form to reply with thanks to commenters on your own song post. However, it is encourage to leave a note of thanks on the commenter’s home page.

The same could be done here with the private message feature of the PG forums. Thank your commenter privately.

That forum has a feature that also allows you to be directly informed when a particular artist posts a song with something they call the watchlist. Each participant’s watchlist and list of people that are watching them is private info.

That said, there are still ‘celebrities’ of sorts in that community which happen because they are so prolific in both their songwriting and comment giving.

PG’s current forum provider may or may not have the code for doing watchlists, but it certainly does have the private message feature

The fact that here on the forum we can elevate certain talented people to a "Celebrity" status to me is one of the single greatest elements of the Users Showcase and PGMusic Forum. To a person, our "Celebrities" deserve our respect and choice to honor their talents, expertise and skill.

The change in the Users Showcase format negatively effects our chosen "celebrities" the most and completely disrupts our Celebrity system.

Most worrisome is this change stems from the practice of Bumping Posts and reading the OP's first two posts in the thread makes it clear the 'Bump' itself is not the issue but the OP's belief the Users Showcase song posters gratuitous, selfish, self-serving, self promoting and ego are behind the 'bumps'.

Although this minor change in the Showcase format gives the appearance that PGMusic shares this opinion with the OP, I certainly hope it's not the case.

Scott,


Your points are well taken.

To be fair, though, when you use FAWM as a comparison, it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, both are fruits, but there's a big difference between them. FAWM exists for 28 days each year (29 days on a leap year) while Users Showcase is continuous 24/7/365. As I see it, such difference requires individual approaches. No matter how hard anyone tries, it's not possible to bake an apple pie with oranges.

Written with respect,
Noel

=======

Charlie,


Those are really astute observations.

Up until now, a song's presence in Users Showcase has been based on the principle that's exactly the same as the Top 10 or Top 40. There's a reason it's popular and sits at the top of the list. It's had the most people comments on it. Whether or not the song's poster replies individually to each comment does not alter this popularity.

Some reasons for popularity have been...

• David Snyder periodically gives excellent advice in his song posts about how he arranged and mixed his work.
• Janice of Janice & Bud sings like an angel and is a model for anyone who wants to develop vocal skills.
• floyd jane has freely and generously given songwriting and song-arranging insights way too numerous to detail over the years. Amongst his advice has been: how to use TC Helicon; best mics; EQ and compression; etc., etc.
• Steve Young and Animarorecords are the most highly polished orchestrators on the forum. I always marvel at their skills and listen over and over to their work.
• Guitarhacker has been very generous with helping many people set up equipment and get the best out of production.
• Sundance has written some wonderful songs.
• Tommyad's guitar playing is as polished as anything and he, too, has been very generous with advice on how to use plugins and mixing.
• ROG has regularly shown us all how to be creative and fearless in our writing and production.
• rsdean is our own Bob Dylan and has developed quite a following on the forum.
• In addition to presenting outstanding material, RnAM are production and video experts.
• Buford present works that serve as models for productions.
• Gruverider, Boheme, 90dB, Aleck Rand, Gibson, RichMac, Dani48, Greg Johnson, Al David, Peterf, Tommyc.... over the years, there have been far too many 'Celebrities' to name. The list just goes on and on.

The large majority of these people are also the ones who make Users Showcase what it is by commenting, encouraging and helping. They define 'generosity of spirit'.

The threads of these people will now disappear fairly quickly and new users will need to be very lucky to discover the gems of learning that are often hidden in the posts of those with expertise.

As I said in my other thread, I find what has happened very disheartening.

Regards,
Noel

I am reluctant to comment, because since my stroke I have limited mobility and have to type with one hand. It's bloody tedious, let me tell you.


Seems like one guy has a problem with what he considers blatant “self-promotion”. Then, we have a few guys that never even use the Showcase agreeing with him. We even got input from someone who doesn't even own or use the program.


I say put it to a vote, but restrict the voting to people who actually post on the Showcase. It's their ox that's being gored.

My $.02.


Regards,


Bob

Thanks for the feedback. After reading through the thread yesterday I was under the impression that the consensus was for it to be sorted by start time, so that's the only reason I tested that out. It's now back to same sort order as the other forums, which is "last post time". Instead, here are the changes:

(1) There is a sort menu at the top of the User Showcase post list, but it is re-worded to make it clear you can sort by most recent song or most recent comment if you choose.

(2) The default number of topics that display on one page is tripled, so songs stay longer on page 1.

Feel free to suggest any other ideas.

Thanks Andrew!!!

I realize that some may feel my input is irrelevant because I don’t use PG products, but I have participated in lots of different online venues which have commenting on songs as a feature. IMO, the best sites for this allow each song to have its own landing page and collects comments on that page. Every online venue that doesn’t do this ends up with issues of lack of staying power on the first page of posts; which seems to be one of the concerns.

Giving each song a landing page also allows the posters to share information like lyrics, song structure, tools used to create the song, etc.

Trying to put all of that information into a forum AND collect comments AND give thanks for comments is kind of a mess. KVRaudio.com music cafe has the same issue. Post a song there and it can disappear from page 1 in hours never to be clicked on again.

I always reply to other's posts on my songs, although at times I've just missed seeing them. I would feel like I was slighting someone if I didn't, as I have posted comments on others' songs that got no reply or a "thank you." To me it's just being courteous. I agree with Josie (Sundance) that I feel I owe a reply to any individual who takes the time to comment or compliment. When you play live, unless you really suck, you spend a LOT of time saying "Thank you." offstage as well as on. Again just courtesy. As for the "habitual bumpers" I have to say I agree with Floyd, music is all about "self promotion" and some people feel they need it. I don't see any blatant misuse on the forums that I couldn't ignore.

Also, having been a guitar/banjo teacher for over 40 years now, I can't ignore anyone who asks for advice or compliments a guitar lick or sound. I'll explain until they are satisfied or post a link that gives a more detailed explanation. It probably "bloats the thread" but that's never been the purpose of my responses. Often others' posts have led me to start a topic on a subject that I think could help folks, whether it's mixing, vocal skills, playing the banjo, or using specific equipment, instruments, setup etc. To me these forums are all about helping others.

A couple of weeks ago I helped a new member, Phil Leith, get going with BIAB. I helped him offline with producing and mixing and posting his work. Finally I advised him to respond to every comment he received on his work out of courtesy. I'm promoting what some folks on here don't like by doing that, but I think it's proper etiquette.

And finally, I think I have one topic where I posted 47 replies out of 74 total posts. Sounds like a record to me after reading Eddie's summation. I replied to everyone who posted and to some who are on the forum that sent me posts via Facebook. I also posted a reply every time the song ("Not Every Day Was Sad") hit another milestone "views" number, to thank everyone who was listening/reading, whatever. I was overwhelmed that a song I'd posted only 10 months earlier had racked up over 11,000 views. I finally decided to just let it go when no one I asked could explain to me how it got that many views and the Soundcloud plays were in the low hundreds.

So suffice it to say I think there are a lot of reasons that posts might appear to be "self promotion" or "spamming." But for me, and I gather for most people who posted on this thread, they are just courteous or explanatory responses to someone or something that was mentioned in that thread. Whatever, going forward I will always respond to anyone who posts on my songs, and respond with an explanation when I think it's helpful.

To each his own.

Keep 'em coming,
Bob Buford

Hi Andrew,

Thanks.

That's a great idea about increasing the default display of the number of topics.

Regards,
Noel

David, I don’t know if the comments above are directed at me. I hope there is no perceived disparaging of PG products in my remarks. I am merely trying to offer suggestions as to how to offer a means for simultaneously provide a place to post songs, receive comments, give thanks for comments, and provide user tips as to how one created their art. Forums kind of stink for that purpose. Until you have tried a different methodology in a supportive community like this one, and like exists at FAWM and 50/90, it may be difficult to understand the benefits offered by FAWM-like song pages. Joanne Cooper and SamuelDavis participate in both of these communities. Perhaps their opinion is worth more than mine for comparison purposes. For me, the weaknesses of forum type song commenting stopped me from participating in them of any kind.

Thanks man!!!!

When songs are posted on FAWM they are in a "first in first out "basis. Commenting does not move them to the top of the page. That said, there is also a lot of political correctness and political incorrectness around commenting there too. It is always discussed ad nauseam every year. The general consensus is that if you want to receive a lot of comments then you need to give a lot of comments, which is the same way as it seems to work on our forums and on all the social media platforms. In other words, your grass grows greenest where you water it most.

So, the take-aways from these 10 pages seem to be...

1) the forum will continue as it has been

2) bump your song posts all you want

3) if you prefer to see posts sorted by initial post date/time you can do that too

4) the grass is always greener over the septic tank

Classic!

My take away is that the “principle of ironic determinism” lives. An old friend and I realized years ago that the most likely outcome of about any situation will often the most ironic imaginable.

In this case the folks who were apparently the most offended by bumping tended to also be those least likely to frequent the User Showcase or at least demonstrate much of a visible presence there.

Caveat: I don’t read minds (have enough problem at this age with my own ) so above I used the word “apparently” as I still remain somewhat confused over why folks got so exercised over one recurring line on a computer/device screen.

Cheers, etc.

Bud

Being paralyzed, I don't comment as often as I should but I listen to the Showcase nearly every day.

I'm guilty of bumping my tunes when I feel that they have moved off the page too quickly. But I'm only human (or a reasonable facsimile).

Nothing to feel guilty about, Don, your posts are your posts!

I don't see anyone who is a regular user of the forum critising you By the way, you come up with some great stuff!!!

I've been really enjoying the song links you've posted recently.

All the best,
Noel

Bump

Ha...your sense of humor is well intact.
A little (lot of) forum humor is a good thing.

Back to topic.....

Where is Eddie anyways who started this thread, I haven't seen him on in a long long time, or Bob 90DB who used to post regularly, I miss his wit around here, God knows we could do with it?

Dunno about Eddie but Bob has had some serious health issues. Bob posted some of the finest music on the showcase forum for years.

Bud

I was wondering about Eddie, too. Last I heard he was getting to roam around the country in a motor home. I also miss 90dB. I hope that they are both well.

Eddie had mentioned because of optical degeneration he would not be keeping the RV and traveling. He had also mentioned that he would be on hiatus. I did send him a message to see how he was doing; but haven't received a response.

Indeed. That's all it was meant to be was jokingly bumping the post.

My habit?....

If my song leaves the first page, that's it.
I think my recent one had a couple days on page 1 and then it was out of sight.
That's OK with me and I don't think twice about it.

If anyone's song submission actually reflects a favorable consensus then it stays on page 1.
That's the way it works and I accept that....no one owes me a response.
If any do comment I'm grateful.
A song either grabs someone OR it doesn't.
If one's (or my) song leaves page 1 quickly....there's a message in that.

When I humbly thank people for listening I'll respond to a several by name within one of my responses rather than individually creating new posts.

But...that's just me.
Stay safe everyone....back to topic.

(I'm hungry, my spousal unit is making a pasta/scampi with sauce combo as we speak.)

Most of the comments have been concerned with User Showcase posts. Once each year to year and a half I'll search through wishlist request posts I've made. I try to acknowledge the requests that have been met and bump requests that are still relevant.

I'm continually surprised to discover PG Music combined several requests, from me and other users, into one idea or come up with something even better than my original request. At the same time some suggestions are not addressed even after many years of requesting.

Bump

My "policy" that has developed over time is if people reply I try to give a general "thank you" once a day for the first three or four days, then, after that, I either PM the person or I put my notes on their newest song contribution. I generally do not give individual responses to each post as I feel, for me, that's extending the life the song thread unnecessarily. But, again, that's just me.

Our resident bumper....... Nice HTL.

I know what you mean. It can seem like personal shelf space.

I post music, and I don't want to leave a thoughtful comment unacknowledged, but when I see what can happen in the "latest posts" feed I sometimes cringe, when what's scolling by is oodles of quoted praise followed by short thank you notes from the same musician.

I include myself among those thankers, so this is not to point a finger at anyone in particular! It feels like a dilemma sometimes, to reply or not to reply.

The private message idea is good. It's also always good (said the old school USENET poster) to trim quoted material down to just what is actually being replied to.

Hey, while we're on the subject, here's something about this forum software that drives me a little crazy.

In the screenshot, the words "but again that's just me" are by jptjptjpt and the words "I know what you mean" are by me, but the blurb makes it look like they're by the same person.

Yeah, your browser is not handling it right
Here's what it looks like to the rest of us (if I understood your post)
/sorry I cut off part of your reply in the image, but you can still see how it looks here ..

Sorry, I should have been clearer what I was referring to.

The posts themselves look fine to me, I'm talking about the "latest posts" feed that shows the tops of all posts across all forums. This:

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=activetopics&range=7&type=p

Sorry, I don't think I ever used that feature, but yeah, it looks different.
Now I get it, after your clarification

That's what I use as my BIAB home page.

I assumed that was what put a bee in OP's bonnet, way back in the last decade: seeing that feed stuffed to the gills with 34 replies by one guy thanking people for liking his song and quoting each and every word of praise. =8^)

There are some of us who can't be here as often as we'd like to for one valid reason or another. I have a significantly handicapped and chronically ill spouse who needs constant attention - literally. So when I do get here, I reply to folks who have commented on one of my submissions over the past several days - usually in one or two strings of replies. There is no other way I can do it. Anyone who comments, over the past several days in my unavoidable absence, on one of my songs will get a personal reply. It's just a courteous thing to do.

Several hours earlier, I replied to about a dozen folks who had commented on my most recent song. This might be the only instance, for a while, that I can do so due to my needed time away from the boards. And I do look up songs as deep as page three for my favorite contributors and "bump" their songs with a comment/review.

There are so many fabulously talented folks in the Users Showcase. I want to let them know how much I appreciate the hard work they put into creating such a fabulous piece of entertainment. And I do, when the contributor asks, offer my thoughts on the production, writing, tracks, etc.

Thanks to everyone who creates these great songs and shares their talented productions. I enjoy them immensely - regardless what page they're on or how often they recycle to the front page.

It's 3:00am. I have to go give my wife an injection, and a few pills. This goes on (the pills) every four hours every day. The injections are just once a day, except Sundays - she gets three injections then.

Merry Christmas to everyone and here's wishing all of you success with your musical endeavors.

Alan

PS: I'm glad PG Music went back to the old way as a default but gave some options for other folks to view the forum as they please.

Bump

Heeeee's baaaaack! Where you been, man?

I read this thread again because I was curious why it had become so long. It's been five years since I interacted with the thread, and I hardly ever visit the User Showcase (I'm too busy writing music, and what I do is highly specific).

One topic that was only mentioned early in the thread is the suggestion of sending a PM. I have always briefly answered a PM but in it, I strongly encourage the poster to make a public post where I will comment more thoroughly, and others can comment as well. I think everyone should have the opportunity to see any question or comment and whatever discussion follows so we all can learn. Now, I'm not sure how well that applies specifically to the User Showcase area, but I would think that practice could be helpful.

Like Matt, I was curious as to why there are 71,110 views of this thread.

After reading all the posts, I still am curious as to why there are 71,110 views.

There is a ton of excellent music created on the user showcase. Why would I want to control how other people react to that content with their comments/bumps/self-promotion/likes/dislikes?

My computer has an off switch and a mouse, allowing me to disconnect from anything I don't find of interest.

Billy

ChatGPT’s thoughts…

"Bumping" a thread on a forum means posting a new message on an old thread to push it back to the top of the forum's page, so that it becomes more visible to other users. Some people may do this to increase the exposure of their content, such as a song on a music software forum.

While this may seem like a harmless strategy, it can be seen as spamming and may violate the forum's rules. It can also be annoying to other users who may see the same content repeatedly and may discourage them from engaging with the poster or their content.

A better approach might be to actively engage with the community by participating in discussions, providing valuable feedback to other users, and sharing your content in a respectful manner. This can help build a positive reputation and attract more organic attention to your music.

Who talks like that?

Non-organic chat-bots, obviously

Or anyone working in Search Engine Optimization.

Tell me your kidding, because it's pretty much everyone under the age of 40 who is an "influencer"

It's one of the most used buzz words for a few years now.

Influencer has become a word for people who don't have a job outside of playing with youtube all day.

I am in my 70s and I have been an influencer for years. I used to "influence" people to close the bar with me and then go race our motorcycles. I "influenced" that almost nightly in the 80s!

And the number of girls I "influenced" to come home with me...

But yeah, "influencer" is a really stupid word. They can only influence weak minded people who allow themselves to be influenced. Nobody has "influenced" me in almost 72 years and I am not likely to start being "influenced" now.

Musically, The Beatles influenced a lot of people in my age group on these forums, but that's about it for influencing.

/bump

@eddie1261

I can never understand why people have that much of energy to spam a software forum in order to bump their music.

Yes, if you keep spamming throughout the year, you will win a $600 worth software license from the contribution award. But is it really worth it for your time?

With that much of time spent, you can invest in mastering your software skills, producing more quality songs, creating intriguing MVs, uploading to YouTube, TikTok, and OnlyFans, making ad revenue and gaining fame.

Thanking people everyday won't make you success.

All.

heres my 2c fwiw….

1.. lets be thankful for this great community here.
2.. lets be thankful for all these great tools that let us create songs that we share..and the abundance of tools that previous generations of musos never had.
3.. lets treat each other following the old motto my grannie drummed into me when i was a kid…'do unto others…' etc etc.

like lots of people wife n' i have had our share of ups n' downs. but we soldier on and to quote Dr G 'have fun'.

i just wish all here wonderful times n' fantastic enjoyment creating their songs.

happiness to all.

om

I don't think you are talking about our User Showcase forum, but just in case you are, I will say that this is not a problem we have here in our community. People are respectful and genuinely interested in commenting and hearing feedback from others. It is a real pleasure to browse that forum and listen to the songs being creating there, and it's interesting to read the stories behind them and the comments at the same time.

There is a feature on that forum to sort the posts either by most recent comment, or by most recent song posted. Since each thread is a separate song, this allows you to easily sort the songs chronologically if you want to.

Well said, Andrew.
Thank you for that much needed clarification.

I agree with Bud & Janice,
Personally I reply to most comments made on my songs. Doing so is polite, it lets a person know that they've offered a good suggestion of a though worthy point was raised.
There're a couple of folk, of late, that post a couple in a week and offer no comments on the work of others. There are folk who are recently very active but posting a couple of songs a week from their past & not so much from their present. There are folk, Like David Snyder, who are looking at ways of posting new songs relatively frequently but without knocking others from the front page before they've had a chance to get a few responses. Strategies for bumping can be painfully obvious and they're often tied in with a tendency to not comment on the songs of others so those folk stick out soon enough. The forum also goes through ebbs & flows, Kenny Rogers style Grammy thematic waves and sudden periods of true excitement for the things being written & posted. I have my periods of whining about people dropping a song for clicks and disappearing but they're often neither frequent fliers nor worth listening to. It takes all kinds on a forum like the User Showcase and the best policing method is for others to be aware of their own actions and mindful of others.

In case anyone doesn’t know, the number of lines on the “front page” is a user-configurable preference:

> Total topics to to show per page: (default is 60, max is 99)

The default seems reasonable to me but I always crank such things to the max. I suppose that value of 60 could be revisited if there is real concern about posts crossing the page line too soon.

Thank you Andrew. Yes, providing the Showcase forum for your community has provided many thousands of folks over the years the opportunity to hear BiaB products "in action," collaborate with others and learn a lot. And, I might add, that if a member works for hours/days on a production there is NO problem in our book with them wanting to keep it active for a while. The alternative is to have it buried over the first night ... you know sorta like social media. Forums are different by nature and we assuredly appreciate that. And regarding spam you admins and mods take care of that promptly ... a role that is often little appreciated so thanks again.

J&B

There are a great many talented people on the User Showcase, and many crave the attention that comes from having their music near the top of page one... For a few months at the beginning of last year, I was one of those seeking that attention, but I found the process exhausting...
Just remember the good Dr. G's words, "Have Fun"

Hey just wanted to mention that we are not amongst the “cravers.” The top of the forum is simply where they go when you respond to a review and keeping them on the front page for a while results in many more folks discovering and listening to your music ... including folks that do not flip through pages of posts for whatever reason. A popular song on the forum might get a hundred plays on Soundcloud in a month. FWIW we get thousands of plays on Spotify and that is gratifying but not to the extent of receiving User Showcase reviews from a community that we consider friends. All meaning we enjoy and appreciate the Showcase forum community created by PG Music and have yet to find it exhausting ... although some folks who drop a song every few days might! And from reading the stats Dr. Gannon cited in this years award post it would appear that the forum has served both members and PG Music well.

Bud

PS We enjoyed your posts and wish you’d not found it exhausting. Us? We spend relatively little time producing music (About one song per month) but we do find our daily interest in hiking and mountain biking to be exhausting!