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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Obviously in the case of buddy, too many brain cells died.
I don't need a calendar to tell me that if there are 12 months in a year, and you divide it into quarters the third quarter starts in July.
Too much poteen can do that one.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 150
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 150 |
"Are all Mac users like this?" This thread is going south 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404 |
This is the only forum I know that still suffers from the obsolete PC vs. Mac syndrome. Other forums and companies (Steinberg, Native Instruments, Ableton..) demonstrate peaceful coexistence and equality of status. Hopefully this will become true also for PGM in the near future.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 196
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 196 |
As a BIAB Windows user (who uses and prefers a Mac for almost everything else), I guess I should be breaking out the champagne some time in Q2. And yet... while it's good news that Mac BIAB 2009 will support all the Real Drums and Real Instruments, I'm afraid I'll need a few more questions answered before I jump "back-to-Mac" with BIAB. Are there some functions in BIAB for Windows, particularly in the audio area, that the Mac version will lack? (I've grown to appreciate BIAB's ability to generate audio harmonies, for example.) On the other hand, will the Mac version offer anything (integration with other Mac programs and/or the Mac OS?) that will give it an edge over Windows BIAB? I guess my main concern is: even if the Mac and Windows versions reach some kind of parity, will that parity remain? When BIAB Windows 2010 is released, with new features that may blow us away, will there be a comparable Mac upgrade at the same time, or at least soon thereafter? Or will the Mac version slip back into the role of a poor stepchild, always several generations behind? It would be nice if PG could tell us that, from now on, they plan to update both platforms on approximately the same schedule. That's probably not realistic -- what PG does with the Mac version will (and should) depend on the sales and other factors. Yet it's tough to justify even a modestly-priced Mac cross-grade without some sense of PG's long-term plans for the Mac version. Any comments, PG?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Well don't hold yer breath. Those who develop for the Mac do so at their own peril, for the company is liable to turn 180 degrees and render it totally impossible to compile for the platform.
This is what has happened numerous times in the past. The catchphrase is proprietary.
When you have code that was developed in a language that requires a compiler and none is available for the new platform you are shafted untile someone releases o/s details and someone else makes a compiler.
What we should all hope is that the new version is open source compliant at least to the extent that it will compile on linux/ubuntu/debian etc. so that we can shed ourselves of the both the Windows and Mac nonsense.
At least in the Windows/Vista world there is enough of a base to have the tools and the hooks to make software, unlike the draconian approach of the Mac world where they don't want 3rd party software to invade thier wee private space.
We will all be better served once the software runs on a true open source free operating system. And on an open platform not needing years of development to release a software product.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Posts: 404 |
It's interesting that many companies (big and small) routinely develop their software as cross-platform for Windows and Mac (and sometimes Linux). I think the simple trick is proper structuring of the software, ie. strict separation of platform independent vs. dependent code. So only the dependent part (GUI, drivers) needs to be adapted on different platforms. It seems to me that PGM have missed the opportunity to design/redesign BIAB for this purpose.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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You forget tha age of band in a box. Support for the needed compilers stalled with Mac's closed door policies. To blame P|G Music is disingenuous. They had the code, it could no longer be compiled. Had it been written in C from the outset, then cross platform might have worked.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404 |
John,
what I mean is this: If the Windows version was written in C *and* properly structured, they could just drop the existing Mac version and compile the platform independent part (probably 80% of the code) on OS X and Linux. Then only the platform dependent part must be coded.
BTW, I think the main problem with Linux is the non-standard MIDI/audio framework.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
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The midi audio framework is proprietary on Mac and Microsoft platforms so it's the other way around.
Secondly the original version was not written in C, C didn't exist, and it's obviously a lot of code. My smallest piece of software was in business basic and was 50,000 lines for the main app with 20 thousand for each of the modules. I tried to rewrite it to run properly on a PC but ended up keeping it on Unix. I had a large enough customer base, and it ended up a good decision, for every tom dick and harry and their kid were walking into my clients offices and trying to help them with 'clunky' terminals. Some of them thought it was a Dos system with bad screens. In reality to look up parts and print invoices you don't need a fancy interface. My best story is when I wanted 12k for an upgrade to a bigger CPU and tape backup they brought in a 17 year old. They started entering the 1/2 million part inventory, and every 20 items the system rebuilt the index for about an hour, and finally when they had spent 8k on the kid and his dream system that worked great with 40 parts got bogged down so badly I got a call. Needless to say I wasn't fast to get there. The whole Dos on the table computer debacle lead a lot of people down the garden path.
At the end of the day, if Mac had no compilers for the O/s you had to rewrite the whole thing you might just as well look at your business model and throw up your hands. I still have lots of code out there but none of it would run on a Mac.
When the program started on the Atari, C was not on the horizon.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404 |
Regardless of history, if you want to stay in good business with software you should take advantage of the currently available tools and methods. It may require investments for redesign of existing software but pays off in the long run.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 196
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 196 |
Quote:
It's interesting that many companies (big and small) routinely develop their software as cross-platform for Windows and Mac (and sometimes Linux). I think the simple trick is proper structuring of the software, ie. strict separation of platform independent vs. dependent code. So only the dependent part (GUI, drivers) needs to be adapted on different platforms. It seems to me that PGM have missed the opportunity to design/redesign BIAB for this purpose.
Besides BIAB, I also use Finale -- which came on a DVD with both the Mac and Windows versions, and a license that allows installation of two copies, one on each platform if I choose. I also use Smartscore (music scanning software), which also shipped with Mac and Windows versions. And before Apple bought Logic and discontinued the PC version, Logic also shipped both Mac and Windows versions, and I ran them both. Bandstand and other software synths likewise ship ready to run on either platform. My point? Well, it would be really nice if PG could do the same thing with BIAB. I'd gladly shell out some extra bucks for a mega-mega-pak I could run on either platform -- and it would mitigate my concerns about one version lacking a few features found on the other platform (the Windows version of Finale also apparently has a few tricks the Mac version can't do). I'm not a programmer, and I don't know what PG would have to do to get there -- but it's the product I want, and it seems to make sense in the long run.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 169
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 169 |
Thank you Peter for the update on the new Mac OSX Version. I look forward to it coming out and I do believe there will be a strong interest in this new version. With real tracks included we will have a great tool for creating songs etc. I hope the final stages of development go well and not too many problems are encountered.
Enjfb
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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Veteran
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Quote:
This is the only forum I know that still suffers from the obsolete PC vs. Mac syndrome. Other forums and companies (Steinberg, Native Instruments, Ableton..) demonstrate peaceful coexistence and equality of status. Hopefully this will become true also for PGM in the near future.
At the Garageband forum they steadfastly refuse to port the product for the PC.
I guess my options are to
a\) lurk there and post derogatory statements, and inflammatory insults.
b) postulate that Mac isn't 10 percent of the market and exptrapolate the riches that await them when this obviously everything to all software sells millions then billions of units.
c) ignore the whole thing.
I'm leaning towards c). falling over...ouch
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
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Veteran
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17 |
What's with all the negativity?
Peter has said his company is making the Mac BIAB 2009 and it appears to be the next product PG is releasing. PG has obviously made the business decision that it is worth their while.
So PG releases it.
MAC users buy it and enjoy it.
PG gets more cash.
Everybody's happy.
Looking forward to the release.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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We all hope that more than 5 people buy a program which worked fine for years, but when Mac changed the o/s and no one had a compiler any more for the platform, PG music was unable to compile the software.
Let's hope that the 5 to 10 sales compensate them for making the software work on a platform that might change again tomorrow.
The real solution is the same. Get the program to run on a free version of Linux. That would be the deal of the century.
Mac's remind me of a girl I once dated. One could say, "no matter how pretty she is somewhere some guy is tired of putting up with her c***. "
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Quote:
Get the program to run on a free version of Linux. That would be the deal of the century.
Talking about Linux is rather quixotic. Here are some quotes from discussions on the 'Plogue' forum. Note that Plogue is a small and successful audio software company like PG Music.
From developers:
Quote:
Its the kind of anti corporate mentality and "must have all free" and "open your source or you die" user attitude that pushes small developers - who just want to make a honest living - away from this great OS.
Just wish people in the linux audio community would fix up ONE STANDARD AUDIO DISTRO. Then, only THEN should we be interested in porting.
From users:
Quote:
I've spent days in the past trying to install and configure Linux distributions, but ultimately I come back to XP because I know where I stand, and it means I can actually get on and do my work.
LinuxAudio is a playground for devs, a babylonic confusion, but not really ready for the productive user.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Well of course the opposite to that is that many corporations are running Linux, where my wife works they have the network and the database software runnining on it. The database is proprietary, and runs on Unix variations and linux.
As to sound applications there are lots.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Quote:
Well of course the opposite to that is that many corporations are running Linux, where my wife works they have the network and the database software runnining on it.
But audio processing is another level of complexity/diversity.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 12
Newbie
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Newbie
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Posts: 12 |
Quote:
Secondly the original version was not written in C, C didn't exist...<snip>
<snip>When the program started on the Atari, C was not on the horizon. <snip>
Not that it really matters to this thread, but C was developed in 1972, long before BIAB on the Atari.
And as far as Windows vs. Mac development, Apple and Microsoft both have proprietary libraries and the bulk of both platforms software is written in a compiled language (even if Windows' Visual Studio tools compile to an intermediate object code it's still compiled rather than interpreted). The only time Apple really complicated things for developers badly was the switch from OS9 to OSX, and then a little bit with the switch to the Intel platform and the universal binary. This is what complicated BIAB development since it's still using older PowerPC code on the Mac. OSX and the GNU C and Objective C tools are good enough that most open source C code for Unix/Linux compiles and runs just fine on the Mac.
Just pointing out some of the obvious errors in your posts about software development on Windows and Mac platforms. I was biting my tongue until the "C wasn't even on the horizon" comment.
--Jim
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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