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I'm looking for PA recommendations that fit the following:
- Sing and play keyboard through
- Handle the full dynamic range of my BIAB rhythm section (RealBass, RealDrums, RealBossa Guitar). It is important that the audience feel the bass. No I don't want to add a subwoofer.
- Handle an occasional Tenor Sax side man (yes a live one)
- Reasonably light (45 lbs is not light for me)
Most gigs are small to medium venues. More indoor than outdoor. And a few people actually listen to the music.
The guy at Guitar Center recommended the new JBL Eon515's. 32 lbs but $800 each (ouch!). They also had JBL Eon315 at $500 each but he said would not be enough power.
Thanks for any advice,
Rachael
Last edited by Rachael; 06/16/09 06:44 AM.
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Yeah, this is always a tough call. You didn't mention your budget but your "ouch" sort of says it. In reality, the guy was right. The Eon's are probably the best along with the Mackies. I've used JBL's for years because they sound the best, that simple. I just did gig at a club where they had 8 Mackie 15's and those sounded pretty good too. Unfortunately, those are the same price as the JBL's.
We went on a 3 day cruise to Mexico a few years ago on the Monarch of the Seas and there had to be at least 100 JBL Eon 15's on that ship. The ship has 4 or 5 big night clubs seating like 3 or 4 hundred people each, the band at the pool (8 Eons there), several lounges and I can't remember what else. In the main showroom that was 3 levels, I counted 22 Eon's both on stage, and hanging from the ceiling, the sides and the rear. There was a party band in the central reception area to welcome everybody on board and they were going through 2. Both the quality of the entertainment and the sound was first rate. They are probably the "go to" pro system for sure. I have a friend who is a wedding DJ. He uses 4 Eon 15's and 2 Yamaha 12's. All are the powered models.
Going down a notch but still pretty good is the Yamaha Stagepas. I think it comes either with the 8" woofers or 12". Get the 12's. I've always felt that Yamaha was the best price/sound compromise if you can't go JBL. Another possibility is the new Bose L1, heard good things about it but I don't know how much bass it puts out.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Just saw your post, Mac. Did you notice if they were using just one L1 or 2 and were they pushing any bass through it or just vocals? I was checking out some youtube demo's of it the other day but every one of the bands were using more than one system. At a grand each, that can get expensive in a hurry.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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This fellow was using only the one system with his (sigh) auto-accompaniment keyboard.
The Bose Compact also had two mics hooked up, one for a young lady and her saxophone who played a few songs with him. I noticed that his mic was first attached to the keyboard's mic input, such that the keyboard line output to the Bose had both the backup keyboard sounds AND his singing mic on one line.
As much as I don't like Bose for the psychoacoustic tricks, that sewer pipe being there just to add resonance, I have to say that the sound in that room worked well for the purpose. The bass was good, though the act was not playing pressure-cooker songs, but light jazz and pop stuff. What really shone through was the ease of setup and use, along with the crowd satisfaction, the music was very listenable yet not super-intrusive, either. Matter of fact, I complimented the young fellow on his sound (lack of playing abilities not being mentioned... grin).
I think the Bose Compact may just represent a good thing for those who do not want to become tech-heads nor have to deal with a lot of hookup wiring, modular systems, technical issues and weight.
If I had the money, I'd likely pick one up for the short hit and runs myself. Would certainy payoff for the retirement home gigs. Thought I'd NEVER say that about the Bose system, but all my PA gear and weight are starting to get to be a little bit much for what the gigs pay, knowmean?
--Mac
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Quote:
...but all my PA gear and weight are starting to get to be a little bit much for what the gigs pay, knowmean?
--Mac
Oh, yeah I know alright. Thanks for the review.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Wow, that low end afterlife place just froze over. Mac + Bose + Birthday Cake = love!
As I fumbled for my glasses to read a purchase the woman at the counter said that to me.."you ate too much birthday cake too eh?" Took a minute to sink in.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Check the link and the picture of the guy walkin' into the gig with the entire PA all at once, John.
All designs of man consist of tradeoffs.
The Bose system does not sound flat and correct to my ears, and again, I would NOT try to use anything made by Bose for critical listening, mixing or mastering. A loser's recipe, as the Bose systems are all about masking what you hear. But the portability is another factor. And as I found out the other day, the sound is usable and not bad in the right sized environment. It certainly truned in a better sounding job than two 12" woofers with horn or piezo on stands...
My designs of late for my own life have a lot more to do with takin' care o' Mac, turns out he's not as indestructible as the testosterone-poisoning led him to believe... (grin)
Just the other day a guy said, "Know what, you could bring your B3... "
Right.
--Mac
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Thanks all,
The new L1 compact does look interesting. I'm concerned about the Bass. Right now, I put BIAB and my keyboard playing through a Roland KC350. The sound is OK but not great. It looks like the L1 has 8" woofer but it's difficult to find any specs about the range and SPL. Has anyone seen these? I know, they don't always mean a lot but at least I can use them for comparison.
Mac, when you heard the L1, what was going through it?
R
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"No highs, no lows, it's a Bose!"
-The Unknown Soundman
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Thanks all,
The new L1 compact does look interesting. I'm concerned about the Bass. Right now, I put BIAB and my keyboard playing through a Roland KC350. The sound is OK but not great. It looks like the L1 has 8" woofer but it's difficult to find any specs about the range and SPL. Has anyone seen these? I know, they don't always mean a lot but at least I can use them for comparison.
Mac, when you heard the L1, what was going through it?
R
Full range from Yamaha Tyros II. -- And the young fellow brought everything in and out in one trip on a folding dolly. Keyboard, stand, Bose Compact and mics. Way cool. The bass was there. These systems are full, but do not intrude. That alone is worth considering IMO. Easy operation, too. Hard to make 'em sound bad, really.
Bose L1 -- OUTDOORS
In the case of the Bose systems only, the diameter of the woofer doesn't translate to the same as it does with other speaker systems. The Bose patented resonance system works for you here. That's what the "sewer pipe" does, it acts as a resonator. A physical mechanical principle that is as old or older than the pipe organs of European cathedrals.
BTW one of the other beauties of the design is that it obviates the need for separate monitor speakers. Makes me wonder why they don't feed back, but they don't. The sound seems to come from, well, everythere.
I thought it worked rather well, too. Had no complaints about the various Bass sounds coming from his autoaccompaniment Tyros keyboard at all. The sound was rich and full, certainly "good enough for jazz" as we sometimes say. As I said earlier, I was impressed enough by the sound to think seriously about obtaining one myself, for much the same type of use, BIAB and my keyboard.
Dealers that carry the Bose systems should be able to let you set up and demo the thing for yourself. Always a good idea.
Here's a Youtube of how quick it sets up at a gig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3acf7ljTno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcLOesyWKxM&feature=related
The thing even turns in an impressive sonic performance to a video camera at a wedding...
--Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/16/09 06:06 PM.
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I heard someone use this tower put out by Bose. It was a tube about 6 feet high and only 6 inches around. It was amazing.
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I own 3 of the original L1 Model 1’s for the past 4 ½ years and I love ‘em.
I have played guitar for the past 43 years but only around the house or around a family campfire but 6 years ago, I found myself in my first band at age 47: our lil’ ol’ church band. The PA system was typical for a church: inexperienced sound man/volunteer, 24 channel Mackie board, wedge monitors on stage, JBL speakers left and right and above the stage. We had 6-10 musicians/singers on stage and everyone wanted “more me” in the monitors until the stage volume was untenable. I was appalled at the sound on stage and you never knew what you sounded like to the audience. After a performance, you would jump off stage and put your arm around someone and ask, “So…how’d we sound?”
I started searching for some solution and I was about to purchase an in-ear monitor system when I first heard about these Bose systems. I went to their website and the user forum (a very friendly, helpful and knowledge group of folks just like BIAB forum) just about every day for 6 months. The musicians on the forum (everyone from Steve Miller and Rick Turner and everyday working musicians raved about these systems.
After I sold off one of my business’ I bought 3 L1’s…and never have regretted it. The sound dispersion is approximately 170 degrees. Each of these 7 ft high L1’s have 24 little speakers in a line array. The sound is very even throughout the room. As a matter of fact, the sound on stage is just slightly louder than it is in the back of the room. You do not have to play at loud volumes to be heard…and one of the best aspects is that you, the musician, get to enjoy the same performance as the audience because Bose system is behind you. No wedge monitors, oh and guess what…no sound man needed. You mix your own sound right on stage with the remote controls.
If I sound like a Bose pitchman (I am not connected to Bose in any way), it’s only because I enjoy them so much compared to the typical 3 way system (mixing board, monitors, PA systems). Setting up 3 Bose L1 systems for a 9 piece band takes about 10 minutes (that’s load in and set up); sound check is less than 10 minutes.
I could blather on and on but you get the idea.
BTW, Bob (jazzmammal) the unknown soundman’s saying is: All high’s and all low’s, must be Bose. The reason is that Bose is known for their tiny speakers and a woofer system. Usually the midrange suffers most when listening to a Bose system. This is also true with the Bose L1 Systems (but it’s still way better than most 3 way systems; that’s my opinion).
Tom
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I don't know very much about powered speakers, but I noticed that the system that Mac pointed out only has bass & treble tone controls. Is that normally sufficient, or would you generally use a mixer/graphic EQ to get the right sound on the job?
Cheers,
Keith
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A couple of comments Tom, that system you're describing is the full size L1 with the controller that retails for $2,500 so you have three, that's $7,500 right? It better sound good for that kind of dough. Also, I've read articles where they've put meters on the array and they roll off around 12-13K because of no tweeters. That sounds like no highs to me plus the sub's are fairly small and I know they put out good bass at low volumes but what happens when you crank it? My problem is I'm a keyboard player and for small jazz and light rock clubs I use a Barbetta with two 10's and a small horn. I'm sure the L1 would do fine too but I also get hired a lot to do the classic 70's B3 thing with me doing left hand bass with a guitar, sax and drums. Nothing blows up speakers any faster than a cranked organ and bass. For that I haul out my 15" Altec, JBL horn and a 500 watt Peavy head with a mixer, just like you described. We all know the limitations of the 15" horn systems but to date they're the only things that can handle the power peaks in that situation. As it is I've blown out two smaller tweeters over the years with the piano intro to Feelin Alright but my JBL has lasted for quite a while now with no problems. I'm not talking screaming concert volume here, just a normal loud bar. Are you saying a L1 can handle me playing B3 and bass on Chicken Shack at midnight? Man, if so I'll go check it out tomorrow because I sure am tired of hauling that stuff around.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
I don't know very much about powered speakers, but I noticed that the system that Mac pointed out only has bass & treble tone controls. Is that normally sufficient, or would you generally use a mixer/graphic EQ to get the right sound on the job?
These are a totally different concept from what you have experienced in the past.
The small number of user-friendly controls are indeed enough and are part of the design, creating a situation where the user does not have to be a physicist in order to dial in great sound.
The midrange is not a problem in this system to my ears.
Matter of fact, the EQ with both knobs set at 12 o'clock is very good indeed. I might conceive a circumstance where I'd set both bass and treble to 1 o'clock for certain vocals, but that's it. In either case, the midrange control is not needed and IMO would actually get in the way if there.
--Mac
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Quote:
Also, I've read articles where they've put meters on the array and they roll off around 12-13K because of no tweeters.
And then the real question becomes, "Do we really NEED to reproduce the audio spectrum above that level in a sound reinforcement system designed to cover about 100 - 200 people?"
Most of us around here are too old to be able to even hear anything above 12K anyway, think about that.
Quote:
That sounds like no highs to me plus the sub's are fairly small and I know they put out good bass at low volumes but what happens when you crank it?
The resonance design makes for a completely different bass situation than other systems.
Of course, as with any system, there comes a point where people will try to force the system to do more than what it was designed to do (larger room with larger crowd, for example, or the like) and the proper thing to do at that point is to not bring a system designed to provide good coverage for a 100 people audience to a 300 people gig. Bring something more substantial, add more power and speakers to what you ahve, etc.
As for the rest of it, did you notice that I stipulated early on in this thread that these systems were not designed for "pressure cooker" rock situations?
I view the Bose Compact as being another tool in the arsenal, which has a use as defined by its design criteria. You are instead trying to compare it against situations for which it was obviously not designed to handle. The complaint is that you can't hammer nails with the screwdriver.
--Mac
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Bob, The ones that I bought are the L1 Model 1 for $1699 ($1700) I also purchased a woofer ($300) with each unit and there was a promotion that allowed me to get an extra woofer for free. So I have 3 L1’s and 4 woofers. One of the L1’s has 2 woofers; our bass player and keyboard player use that one (BTW, our keyboard player plays a B3 patch all the time and we can get the stage to vibrate with bass when we turn it up). The ones that are $2500 each are the L1 Model 2’s. I still spent a pretty penny ($5800 with a couple of discounts) but 4 ½ years later I still think they were worth it. The Bose Compact is $999 but I’m really not too familiar with these though. As far as loudness goes, the room we play at in our church holds about 350 people. We can not turn these units up past 6 on scale of 12 before it is too darn loud (everywhere in the room). For a working musician, I think these things make life infinitely easier…on your back and your ears (probably not your wallet though). Nice consistent sound every night. If you live close to a Guitar Center, by all means, go check ‘em out. Another approach would be to order one directly from Bose. You have 45 days to put it through its paces. If you don’t like them, then send it back for a refund. Go to their website and nose around a bit. Visit the forum too…as I said before, some friendly, helpful people there. Here’s a link: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIE...stems/index.jspAgain, I think I’m sounding like a Bose pitchman but I’m just a satisfied customer. Tom
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I've done a couple of open mikes using the Bose system, not sure which one , I was told the system retails for around $2000 and it belongs to Apple Music , a local music store. Anyway, the sound was excellent 3 out of 4 times, the last time they had a fan running to cool the club and the wind from the fan was causing noise and canceling out the sound, but every other time I could hear my guitar and vocal pretty clear and the sound was getting out very nicely. Just a guitar /vocal set up with 2 mikes but I play a lot of damped bass strings and they were coming through clearly.
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Here is a one man band using it with keyboard, laptop with backing tracks, various horns, harmonizer, and more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM_yqUlsJ1g
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