I’m searching for a convincing and reliable method to get vocal harmony with BIAB during live performances. My tunes cover the spectrum from jazz, country, pop, Broadway, and whatever. I found some forum discussion on this issue several years back and the conclusions seemed iffy and technical at that time----most of which, I didn’t understand. Has this issue improved with the 2017 upgrade? In the “hardware” section, PG Music recommends the use of the TC Helicon products. I’m wondering if anyone is using such gear with BIAB and how well does it work in live settings? I’m not sure how to connect such a vocal harmony box to the laptop. Furthermore, the midi output channel that’s mentioned------how well does it work? Does every chord in the song arrangement get transmitted accurately? Would jazz chords be sent and work just as well as basic triads? Do these vocal harmony units pick up moving, passing chords? I wish there was a good tutorial on this matter, showing step by step how to set up a unit, such as the Voice Live 3 with BIAB. I’d appreciate any comments from those with experience with these outboard units and their use with BIAB.
I use VoiceLive 2 when I stream using BIAB 2017 live. I have no issues but it took me months to work out how to integrate it. I use midi commands from BIAB on the soloist track. I have a VoiceLive 3 Extreme, but I've yet to get round to setting it up. It takes a lot of fiddling to get a harmonizer to sound real - if it ever does. Having said that, I love what it does for me. Also, they are so much more than just a harmonizer. It is my vocal sound engineer, de essing, compressing (all intelligently) Autotune, delay, reverb, doubling, fx effects etc, choirs, harmony, acoustic guitar effects and that's the VoiceLive 2. The voiceLive 3 Extreme is a whole different ball game, automated effects on your vocals, guitar whilst playing your wave file backing tracks inside it and and recording your show. Imagine you, your mic, guitar/keyboard and Voicelive 3 straight into a PA. No need for BIAB, a computer or anything else. Looping and electric guitar multi effects also with automation. These are big beasts with incredible power, but if you think BIAB is a steep learning curve......
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
I use VoiceLive 2 when I stream using BIAB 2017 live. I have no issues but it took me months to work out how to integrate it. I use midi commands from BIAB on the soloist track. I have a VoiceLive 3 Extreme, but I've yet to get round to setting it up. It takes a lot of fiddling to get a harmonizer to sound real - if it ever does. Having said that, I love what it does for me. Also, they are so much more than just a harmonizer. It is my vocal sound engineer, de essing, compressing (all intelligently) Autotune, delay, reverb, doubling, fx effects etc, choirs, harmony, acoustic guitar effects and that's the VoiceLive 2. The voiceLive 3 Extreme is a whole different ball game, automated effects on your vocals, guitar whilst playing your wave file backing tracks inside it and and recording your show. Imagine you, your mic, guitar/keyboard and Voicelive 3 straight into a PA. No need for BIAB, a computer or anything else. Looping and electric guitar multi effects also with automation. These are big beasts with incredible power, but if you think BIAB is a steep learning curve......
Lambada is right on with his comments. I have Voice Live Touch and have used it with BIAB. Based on my experience I could not say anything better than has been said here. The VLT is older and smaller than the VoiceLive 2 or the Voice Live 3 (also a lot cheaper), but it too is a "beast". Lots of features that need to be tamed. I made a video about how to install and work with this in BIAB. If you cannot find it here in the forum I will look for it and update the link.
Otherwise, two things: 1) I was never able to really integrate it into my live BIAB show. Too complex and not enough time to master it to the level necessary. Although, it sure was fun working with it at least to the level I did. 2) It helps greatly if you are a good singer to begin with.
I agree to an extent about it being cheezy, but I believe if you put the same kind of time into it as you do into say mastering or mixing tracks you can get some amazing harmonies. Remember, harmonies are just a small part of what they do and should only come on for short periods. TC Helicon stuff also provides a built in sound engineer working away in the background. Imagine your trying to sing a modern song. Voicelive can provide Hardtune, Tempo matched Delays, Doubling Harmonies and Reverbs all for as little as one bar. Pretty cool.
I agree, if you have a dodgy / untrained voice, nothing can help except perhaps Autotune or a singing teacher! Luckily, most punters don't seem to be able to tell a good from a bad voice but even a good voice can sound grim without treatment live or in the studio.
Somewhere there is a video (poor quality) of me showing how I integrate VoiceLive 2 for streaming/live. It is time consuming and there is a steep learning curve learning to use a harmonizer well. Not something I can do live. It needs to be automated.
I'm happy to do another, better quality video if wanted, but it's a bit of a niche interest for BIAB forum members.
Last edited by lambada; 06/02/1706:46 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
I'm happy to do another, better quality video if wanted, but it's a bit of a niche interest for BIAB forum members.
There have been a couple of us working the BIAB\TCHelicon combo over the years. Even though my VLT is in the closet, I am only looking for an excuse to bring it out again. Regarding setup in BIAB this might give you a clue.
Thanks so much Dan for the video. I've not seen that one before, and I've never seriously considered controlling my harmonies from Voicelive 2 from BIAB rather than from my guitar playing. However, it would make a lot of sense, because quite often I play lead or don't want to crowd out BIAB with my rhythm guitar playing. I can still leave my automation in BIAB as I also drive the Nova guitar effects from BIAB. It might also work better live. Ironically, I have Ian's VoiceLive 2 editor and will be upgrading to the 3x one. It's a fabulous piece of software and would be great live as it's very easy to use. It's also great for making changes to the default settings on some patches, which frankly, often need them.
You've made my day with that video!
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
Yes, thanks for all the comments and the video, which helps understand a complicated (to me) process. I was thinking about getting the Voice Live 3 Extreme, or waiting until the next upgrade. I suppose I could use it with my midi keyboard and DAW in home recording. However, live use with BIAB is my objective. I’ve got the TC Helicon Harmony Singer----the small blue pedal; however, I don’t like being tied to the guitar chords to drive the harmonies, since I often play fills, turnarounds, etc. (while singing) and may not be sitting on the needed chord at the moment. That’s why I’m looking for BIAB to supply the chord changes. This whole topic seems obscure for singers with BIAB. Maybe PG Music should give it some attention.
Whatever product you are using (TC Helicon or other), there are some limitations you must bear in mind.
1) When using «Ouput Chords» in BB most units can only «understand» 4-note chords. So C7b5 is OK, but C13 not.
2) The other voices always move in the direction as your own voice. So either ascending or decending, but no counter movement.
3) When your voice moves up (or down) a half note, the other voices will remain unchanged, unless you enter passing harmonies. E.g. If you sing E, F, G in the key of C and the chord is e.g. Cmaj7. The other voices will remain the same, when you move from E to F, unless you enter e.g. Dm7 as your chord.
In the past I have used this setup to try to sing like The Four Freshmen, all by myself, and keeping in mind all the limitations I have mentioned above, I had to addept my chordsheet a lot, but the end results sounded great.
Continued follow-up, with observations: 1. I’ll try the input of Harmony Singer with BIAB, even tho’ it’s only a ¼” mono analog input. 2. Does anyone know about the Voice Live 3 and the “Extreme”----can they really determine the chord changes when using the auxiliary input, with a previously mixed audio track (or BIAB song) and provide the correct harmony? Some of the videos I’ve seen seem to suggest that. I thought that could only be done via midi. 3. Following Tonnie’s comments on limitations-----Is the technology static at this point, or is there room for improvement for BIAB to provide an output (of some kind) that would allow vocal harmony for every nuance of the chords on the song chord sheet? Hence, Four Freshmen-type harmonies, if that’s what someone wanted to do? In which case, that should really show the potential of units like the Voice Live 3.
I haven't tried it on the 3 or 3 Ext, but ever since the Voicelive 2, they have been offering audio output as a harmonizing option. I don't think you would have a problem. The Extreme is expensive, but it provides a looper, guitar effects, playback of audio files with automation of effects and recording via USB. The only negative I read was that it was a bit fragile. Again, mine is still in the box, so I can't comment on anything yet. Be careful you don't buy the fancy vocal/guitar cable (which i did) as it comes in the package. I waited and waited for the 4, but who knows when.... I'd be tempted to go along to a friendly shop and try it out or contact TC Helicon.
Last edited by lambada; 06/10/1703:17 AM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
Hi Dan. Two quick questions. Do you have a copy of the Midi Re Direct VST as Paul Warrens's site is defunct and Google brings up nothing? I couldn't get the Voicelive 2 Editor to function without it as I have to turn off USB Control on the Voicelive 2, which kills the link between the chord output in BIAB and my Voicelive 2.
I don't understand why I need the VST if I'm running a real midi cable from my Audio Interface to the Voicelive 2 and a USB cable from the Voicelive 2 to my PC. I've got patch commands and cc commands on my melody track in BIAB on Channel 4 and the harmonies coming through on the Through Channel, Channel 5. It works fine but no editor. I'm a bit baffled.
Last edited by lambada; 06/08/1705:18 AM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
I not sure if midi redirector is helping me. Basically, if I want to use the Voicelive 2 editor I have to turn USB control on. If I turn it on, none of my Voicelive 2 midi commands work in BIAB. I have them on the Melody track. My nova commands are on the Soloist track. Both entered to specific bars in Step Edit mode. However I can switch patches directly on the Voicelive 2 using the editor. Maybe that's one advantage of the redirector? I didn't try it before I installed the redirector, so I'm not sure if it is the actual redirector that is allowing me to do that.
It is cool with USB on as you can edit and change patches from the editor which is very straightforward as it's a great piece of software, but I don't think I would use it live and I need the midi automation in BIAB more.
The harmonies work great and I'm now free to use the guitar for whatever I want (eg guitar synth or guitar solos). No need to play chords to get harmonies as it's now all done by BIAB chords. Very cool. A big fortuitous step forward. Thanks.
If I've missed something or misunderstood the redirector, please let me know. I find this aspect of midi a bit of a mystery in BIAB and largely undocumented. I'd love to be able to use the editor at the same time, but it's seems it is not to be.
Last edited by lambada; 06/10/1703:20 AM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
Sounds like you are making progress. Like we discussed there are not a lot of folks going down this road with BIAB and the TC product. I am traveling these days so not at my music studio. But I did make a pretty serious effort with all this several years ago. So I can share with you how my story ended.
Working with BIAB and TC VLT2 was fun and a learning experience, but in the end I moved it all to Reaper when I wanted to take the show live. Just a lot more flexibility in a full fledged DAW.
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I'd love to be able to use the editor at the same time, but it's seems it is not to be.
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