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My friend who uses BIAB 3 to 4 nights a week with all MIDI & a Ketron. This is something that has been an issue forever and was supposed to be fixed with 2009.5. He's using 2010 and reports that 50% of the time BIAB does not send the upper bank change to the Ketron. He's has redone the songs a number of times just to make sure. This is typical of the types of bugs that rear their heads only after repeated playing of a large number of songs.
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This is a good argument for sending the output of the ketron to an audio track and using the audio track in the performance.
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I haven't seen that happen here, Silvertones. Not yet, anyway.
I'm running XP SP3 on both machines, though. Your friend may be running one of the newer OS's?
This was indeed a bug that was fixed in an update last year -- finally.
I'll test that out again on this end today.
--Mac
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Quote:
This is a good argument for sending the output of the ketron to an audio track and using the audio track in the performance.
That does not do it for me and the others who use BiaB in live performance...
it also *really* doesn't cut it when working up stuff in the studio, either.
--Mac
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Quote:
Quote:
This is a good argument for sending the output of the ketron to an audio track and using the audio track in the performance.
That does not do it for me and the others who use BiaB in live performance...
it also *really* doesn't cut it when working up stuff in the studio, either.
--Mac
neither does 50% of a performers songs playing with the wrong patch cut it.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I don't get it.
Why argue against getting something to function as it should?
--Mac
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Here's the situation. He bought a new lappy with Win 7 in hopes of being able to use all RTs. He plays Jazz 3 to 4 nights a week. Every week. He's a guitarist. Uses Bass, Piano, soloist, Drums. He redid all of his songs some 300 to use all RTs. Well we all know that there's this Access Violation bug that's rearing it's head for some and he's one. So he decide to take the other lappy with XP, load in 2010 and again redue all the songs this time straight MIDI to the Ketron seeing as the upper bank issue was fixed. Wrong it's not. As I said 50% don't hold. He even redid them again and last night same issue. I didn't ask if it was the same songs. Probably wouldn't remember anyway.
Mac I've had a couple of issues that would never show up until you start processing a LOT of songs. Do you have a LOT of songs with upper bank patches you could try?
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Quote:
I don't get it.
Why argue against getting something to function as it should?
--Mac
I wasn't arguing against getting something to function the way it should at all! My comment was in reference to your comment that playing with audio backing tracks "doesn't cut it" (and I'm sure that's true for many people, but not all. Notes Norton uses audio backing tracks, and he is a professional. )
there's always more than one way to address a problem, and I have seen that our ways are often different. I tend to suggest non-technical workarounds, and you tend to recommend technical solutions.
This forum is populated by people of widely varying musical and technical expertise, and both kinds of suggestions are useful, but to different people. Rather than deciding in advance what's a bad idea, I see value in presenting many points of view and then letting people decide for themselves what works for their needs.
It is inevitable that some people like chocolate while other people like vanilla. That is a good thing. If I extol the virtues of vanilla, don't presume that I am attacking chocolate. I just speak to the people who also like vanilla. But there is no need to refute the value of vanilla just because you prefer chocolate.
;-) said in good humor, I hope it is received as intended.
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BIAB is funky the way it implements the audio track. It saves the song as two seperate files with the same name and if by chance they get orphaned you have big trouble.
Back on the subject. If your using BIAB out in the field professionally you have to have things fixed from a technical stand point or you won't be able to rely on it.
Imagine the anxiety of wondering while your at a paying gig. Your lively hood"OK is the next song going to load or crash"
BTW Notes plays with stereo .wav files because I'm sure he's been through that anxiety at some point.
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Quote:
I wasn't arguing against getting something to function the way it should at all! My comment was in reference to your comment that playing with audio backing tracks "doesn't cut it" (and I'm sure that's true for many people etc. etc. etc. ...
Um, in order to go there you had to have ignored the entire last half of my sentence.
You know, that part that said, "when working up stuff in the studio"?
Whatever that has to do with live backing tracks, I don't know.
--Mac
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I have had problems with some Ketron SD2 alternative Bank patches when using RB - most frequently with Bank 2. The alternative Bank setting works from the start but reverts to the GM patch number if for any reason the song is stopped or there is a long silence. This becomes a problem when say Clarinet Patch 99 Bank 2 reverts to GM patch 99 Crystal. I have suspected the Ketron itself, RB or even the Edirol USB Midi connection for not retaining the correct Bank number without a resolution. The Midi solution is to repeat the patch coding in the Event List where required. For BIAB, I stick to the GM Bank only. For studio work in RB, I convert all tracks to Audio.
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So Lyn you are agreeing that it's still an issue?
Mac COULD this be an issue with the KETRON?
Well I guess it could be.
Dave if your reading this hook your XV2020 up to the gig computer and see if BIAB is successful in send the upper bank changes. I know the instrument will be wrong but will be able to tell at least were the problem lies.
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It appears to be an issue with the BB coding.
Silvertones should remember the problem I reported during Beta testing about the RealDrums being out of the pocket when playing with hardware synths.
Well, it looks like the solution was to send cc123 resets out the pipe.
And those resets are also resetting the synths to GM mode.
I caught it last night with a MIDI Monitor inserted.
It also does this on other hardware synths I have here, not just the Ketrons.
Back to the drawing board on that solve, I guess...
--Mac
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And it affects the voicelive. I fooled with that for 4 hours last night to no avail.
The real solution is going to be the Behringer fcs 1010 foot pedal job. I'll probably put the Ketron in the midi line first, then the footpedal, then the voicelive. It's not a huge deal, but ...
I tried midi ch 1, 5, and 8. 8 because I saw something with an 8 in it. That does strange stuff when you start band in a box. Somehow a CC 71 is being sent, but I can't find it. On midi 1 as the song starts the voicelive changes to preset 71. Weird. I just cannot control it in band in a box. Pat keeps trying to convert me to RealBand, and says it works. Another learning curve....at 60..arrgghh.
I'm having too much fun manually fooling with the voicelive and singing. I'm of the opinion that if the guys at PG realized how much this would enhance the experience they would dedicate someone to testing and integrating it.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Somehow a CC 71 is being sent, but I can't find it. On midi 1 as the song starts the voicelive changes to preset 71.
CC71 is likely not the command that changes Preset to number 71...
The VL manual at the last pages should describe what the CC send is for patch change.
it also responds to Sysex commands, but that would be outside the scope of BiaB, I think.
Those darned multiple cc123's though. BiaB is sending them. That's a full MIDI Reset command, part of MIDI Standard and any and all MIDI devices respond to it...
--Mac
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Yea Mac I found it. Set up a song with all upper bank patches. Hook MidiOx in line and filtered all data except CC. At the beginning it sends all of the appropriate MSB values in fact it sends them twice each just to make sure BUT BUT BUT just before the song starts it sends MSB of 0 to channels - 2,3,7,6,4,8,5,2, Twice which of course are the channels as set up in the PREFS
That's the answer they messed up the upper bank change to fix the out of sync issue.
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My voicelive gets midi data every time Band in a Box starts up. It messes things up and I have to fool with it.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Yea Mac I found it. Set up a song with all upper bank patches. Hook MidiOx in line and filtered all data except CC. At the beginning it sends all of the appropriate MSB values in fact it sends them twice each just to make sure BUT BUT BUT just before the song starts it sends MSB of 0 to channels - 2,3,7,6,4,8,5,2, Twice which of course are the channels as set up in the PREFS
That's the answer they messed up the upper bank change to fix the out of sync issue.
Excellent detective work.
I knew it wasn't the Ketron, which has proven over and over again to be a 100% reliable State Machine. Besides, there's nothing volatile about it.
Did you email this to Peter?
If not, please do!
--Mac
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Quote:
Yea Mac I found it. Set up a song with all upper bank patches. Hook MidiOx in line and filtered all data except CC. At the beginning it sends all of the appropriate MSB values in fact it sends them twice each just to make sure BUT BUT BUT just before the song starts it sends MSB of 0 to channels - 2,3,7,6,4,8,5,2, Twice which of course are the channels as set up in the PREFS
That's the answer they messed up the upper bank change to fix the out of sync issue.
Early last year I reported to support that when I loaded a song that had been saved with higher bank (HB) patches, the bank changes were sent on load but were *not* sent when you hit play, only the patch change itself was sent on play. That can cause a lot of confusion under certain circumstances, and it looks like they've finally fixed at least that one thing (build 292), since play now sends cc0, cc32, and the program change as a bundle. But there are still issues. Maybe new ones, as you say. (Are you sure that style control of patch changes was repressed? These midi/song/override settings drive me nuts trying to figure out the hierarchy of control over patch/bank events.) One thing I'm finding right away: when I load a song that I saved (build 292) with HB definitions, I don't see them in the HB dialog - the "+" button, although the new spinners get them right (and the midi monitor confirms they're there). Display confusion - not good. (BTW, why add the bank spinners? - If you're using HBs, you wanna use your patch map, no? Were the spinners discussed in beta?)
Quote:
I knew it wasn't the Ketron, which has proven over and over again to be a 100% reliable State Machine. Besides, there's nothing volatile about it.
CC123 is all notes off. Same thing as the panic button. (BB has been sending out that all channel fusilade for many versions now.) If a synth resets to a GM bank in response to that.... well it just shouldn't. Must be more to what's going on than that.
-Ron
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I've emailed Peter & Andrew and they are working on it. This morning though was the first capture I could get to send to them.
Film at 11:00---
I finally got one to reproduce. I've attached a text file. Channel 8 is my soloist channel.
Note EVT#1&3 &13 these are the correct values as set by me.
Now look at EVT# 19,20,21 The upper bank has been reset to 0 just prior to the song starting.
Evt # Time (mS) Source Raw Status Chan Data 1 Data 2
1 2 1 B7 00 09 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #0 Bank Select MSB CC Value = 9
2 3 1 B7 20 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #32 Bank Select LSB CC Value = 0
3 3 1 B7 00 09 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #0 Bank Select MSB CC Value = 9
4 3 1 B7 20 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #32 Bank Select LSB CC Value = 0
5 3 1 C7 42 Program Change ($Cx) 8 Program = 66
6 3 1 B7 07 5A Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #7 Main Volume MSB CC Value = 90
7 3 1 B7 5B 28 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #91 Reverb Depth CC Value = 40
8 4 1 B7 5D 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #93 Chorus Depth CC Value = 0
9 4 1 B7 0A 40 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #10 Pan MSB CC Value = 64
10 4 1 B7 7A 7F Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #122 Local Control CC Value =127
11 4 1 FA Song Start ($FA)
12 4 1 B7 7A 7F Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #122 Local Control CC Value =127
13 4 1 B7 00 09 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #0 Bank Select MSB CC Value = 9
14 5 1 B7 20 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #32 Bank Select LSB CC Value = 0
15 5 1 C7 42 Program Change ($Cx) 8 Program = 66
16 5 1 C7 42 Program Change ($Cx) 8 Program = 66
17 5 1 B7 01 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #1 Mod Wheel MSB CC Value = 0
18 6 1 E7 00 40 Pitch Bend ($Ex) 8 Bend = 0
19 6 1 B7 00 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #0 Bank Select MSB CC Value = 0
20 6 1 B7 20 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #32 Bank Select LSB CC Value = 0
21 6 1 C7 42 Program Change ($Cx) 8 Program = 66
22 16052 1 FC Song Stop ($FC)
23 16052 1 B7 7B 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #123 All Notes Off CC Value = 0
24 16053 1 B7 40 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #64 Sustain Pedal CC Value = 0
25 16053 1 B7 7B 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #123 All Notes Off CC Value = 0
26 16053 1 B7 40 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #64 Sustain Pedal CC Value = 0
27 16053 1 B7 01 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #1 Mod Wheel MSB CC Value = 0
28 16053 1 E7 00 40 Pitch Bend ($Ex) 8 Bend = 0
29 16054 1 B7 7B 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #123 All Notes Off CC Value = 0
30 16054 1 B7 40 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #64 Sustain Pedal CC Value = 0
31 16054 1 B7 7B 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #123 All Notes Off CC Value = 0
32 16054 1 B7 40 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #64 Sustain Pedal CC Value = 0
33 16054 1 B7 01 00 Control Change ($Bx) 8 CC Type = #1 Mod Wheel MSB CC Value = 0
34 16055 1 E7 00 40 Pitch Bend ($Ex) 8 Bend = 0
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