PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Vocal Delivery_Nashville Has Spoken

So, in line with the recent discussions on pitch correction in another thread, I just watched an online streamed session in Nashville with Benita Hill (multi hit songwriter for Garth Brooks and many others) that included If We Can Just Make it Through Midnight, that was posted here. (Produced with Band in a Box.) Song by Rachel and David.

Benita and the NSAI (Nashville Songwriters Association) staff were smiling and nodding along like crazy the entire time, and the comment was very close to this, if not verbatim:

"I love the vocals! I really like your voice. It really communicates the song. Totally pitchable as is. As an artist or to someone else. [Song is] cool. It's different. Kind of has a cowboy, western feel, which I love. Really really good. I like it!!" [smiling.]

I did not use Melodyne.

I just stepped up to a mic and sang it with my heart.

I don't think you can buy one of those from Sweetwater, but maybe they will go on sale next week.



P.S. They also listened to Rachel on "Big Wide Open Road," also posted here, and Benita made some suggestions [but was extremely helpful] on some stuff because she is a hit song lyricist, but overall, they were also pumped about this tune and the comment was:

"You've written a great road trip driving song girl!"



So I guess Rachel and I will just keep walking down that long, old, dusty, wide open, long and winding road that leads us to your door.....

It's nice to get a little confirmation from the powerful once in a while.
I told you that your vocal on your most recent solo was committed.

Ray,

I think why I posted this is because I feel there is SO MUCH that goes into a vocal performance that is never really covered on MANY forums out there and all around the world: a lot of stuff about plugins and technology and other things, which always kind of lead to one of two places.

1.) Your vocal can't possibly work so I guess you'll have to use that AI girl Natalie like everyone else and sound like everyone else because we have now moved into a one voice world. Real voices not allowed.

2.) Why don't you just join the crowd and mind your manners, and sing some faux jazz or the 12 bar blues with a three note melody: or else go hide in a closet. Because I said so. And I should know. Although you have never heard of me.

Uh........no thanks.

Oh, I forgot the 3rd staple of Internet forums (and this one is almost sacred):

"Hey I know I am wearing an avatar mask from a Japanese video game and have the stupidest user name ever invented and no one has ever heard of me, and I really have never actually done anything, but unless everyone on the forum does what I say you will never ever make it in the real world. Trust me, I know. How I know, well, I can't say, but just trust me."

So....

No.

There is A LOT that goes into a vocal that has nothing to do with VSTs and editing.

There is also the SPIRIT of the song, and the HEART and the FEELING that communicates a message. NO robot will ever be able to do that. EVER.

These are things a VST cannot touch. To dwell on them at the expense of all else it simply nuts.

For practice, there are any number of reasonably priced vocal warm up apps that anyone can use at any time to develop more flexible vocal chords.

Side note: I once burst out into laughter watching some dude on the Recording Revolution give a vocal performance lesson (totally serious and stony-faced) where he talked about "hydrating." He is a heavy metal singer and he drank a bottle of water on camera and then went:

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Did you hear how I went AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH."

One note and exactly like the sound of a dump truck on gravel.

Wow! I am going to work on that! Thanks for the water drinking tip though!!!

That is to say, there about 5,666,789,976,777,432,156,698 totally crazy videos out there to make your music sound like a "hit."

BUT, even if they DID work, have you ever gone on Spotify and typed in 100 top songs on Spotify now?

How long were you able to listen?

Did it sound good?

Do you understand where the money went when they were producing this??

Do you still want to listen to "advice" from anyone????

Here's what I think:

If they know what they're talking about, sure.

How come, of all the so-called "advice" out there on how to make your song a "hit," no one ever mentions "write a good song?"

Shouldn't that be step one?

Byron,

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha HA!

I have tried to say that so many times I lost count and just gave up--a long time ago.

But...

YEAH!!!!!!!!!



+1!!!!!

Byron, one more:


"Back in my day, we didn't have autotune. We didn't have any of that stuff. We hardly had anything you know, it was just me and Jooohnnn.

"Really, it was simple, we just had to be able to step up to a microphone and hit the right note, you know what I mean? We had to be able to sing, you know." *

--Paul McCartney

* I heard this on a video and I think I have it exact.

And then there's:

"I am in awe of Paul McCartney. I don't think I've ever been in awe of anyone else but I'm in awe of Paul McCartney. He can do it all. And his melodies are effortless. It's all so damned effortless. Everything that comes out of his mouth is framing a melody. I wish he'd just quit."

--Bob Dylan

Yes, but you also sang it in tune, so you didn't need Melodyne. Which is the point that Paul is making: they had to sing in tune. Because if they didn't, as Paul writes elsewhere, people would "stand up and walk out on me".


Not only could they sing in tune, they could sing in harmony.

And as Dylan says, Paul sings in service of the melody. I assume that's what you mean by "sang it with my heart".

I'm betting you weren't singing out of tune. I know you've put in those hours of work into your singing, the same as you have on the guitar.

In the thread that started this, Nigel wrote:


I don't think anyone posting music here wants to sing out of tune. In some cases, they may not even be aware of it, and in others, they may not know what to do about it.

Nigel's first suggestion isn't to apply Melodyne to a song - it's to have someone with good ears have a listen to it before it's posted.

Here's my anecdote. The other week, I was cantoring at church, and there were parts that felt pitchy. I asked someone who I know has good ears about that it, and he he didn't hear any issues. However, the service was recorded, and the tape didn't lie - it was not good. Listening to the performance was painful... and extremely helpful. I went back to the guy and told him in the future I needed him to be brutally honest, not polite.

Nigel's second suggestion - about pitch correction - has the caveats that it be used "sparingly and musically". That is, correction should only be applied where it's needed. And if it's not needed, not applied at all.

Finally, Nigel says that pitch correction can be used as a learning tool, even if you end up not using it. Others on the thread agree to the same point.

Nowhere do I see anyone arguing that every song needs to have Melodyne on it. Because guess who else doesn't use Melodyne? Nigel, the person who started the thread.

I don't understand why you feel the need to set up these straw man arguments.

And if you think I'm suggesting everyone should use pitch correction, did you notice my signature line?

I can see there are some opposite opinions going on here in this thread, as to whether a singer should be performing a song in an in-tune manner, or an out-of-tune manner.

For this topic, I will stay political neutral.


This is a harsh comment. Although I agree with NigelSpiers, I don't think if I would ever have the courage to speak out like this. Honesty is not always a good thing. Telling a singer he is out of tune can be just as sensitive as saying he is untalented.


If a singer's vocal performance is way out of tune, in most cases the audience would just stop listening, and never come back, without the need of hurting the singer's feelings. I don't think the modern audience would stand up, boo the singer, write a negative comment, before they walk out in anger. People don't do that anymore.


Not sure if this will be labeled as political incorrect. To many people, diversity and inclusion are more important than the quality of their music.

"To many people, diversity and inclusion are more important than the quality of their music."
WHAT?

Paul McCartney -
FACT - he'd go back in after ensuring everyone else headed home after a The Beatles session and redo his parts until they were perfect so that he could be whatever it was he wanted to be.
OPINION - He was a passive aggressive control freak. Talented though. Ending up writing drivel without someone to directly compete with.

One must establish a rapport that makes it clear what expectations are with someone from whom you want frank assessments.

The User Showcase forum isn't an "audience" in the public performance sense. Generally one has to make it clear that constructive criticism of a piece is welcome.

Nigel may"...listen to all the other songs on that forum." but he only comments on a few & generally visits daily to bump his current track with a thank you which is fine by me. He did start out on the forum being frank, & fearless in his comments but ruffled a few feathers and, honestly, was off the mark on the odd one so has taken a different approach.

I visit almost daily, listen & comment on most songs BUT I don't comment on those who've chosen not to comment on mine for a year or so. There are a few on my ignore list for a variety of reasons.
If the singing is pitchy, sibilant, strident in certain freqs I'll mention it BUT if I've mentioned in the past and the poster has made it clear that they don't care about these things or don't care for such commentary I demure choosing to comment on improvements or other aspects.

It's not politically correct to consider people's feelings, address their needs or put their work in context. It's woke though. Woke in the correct sense as opposed to a common label for all things disliked by a demographic.

LOL...David, I think I saw an advertisement on Sweetwater for a David Snyder AI VST.

I was going to buy it but the fine print indicated that there was no guarantee of perfect pitch control. Sadly, I decided not to get the David Snyder AI VST because I was so fearful of being disparaged here on the forum for posting something that was not perfectly in tune.

Oh, and by the way, please be careful about what you say about "AI girl Natalie." I have been told, she is very sensitive and prone to self-harm. She had a very difficult childhood and is terribly unsure of how to identify. So if you don't mind, just call her Natalie.

Billy

Who are these "many people" you are referring to?

If you're referring to this forum, it's a special case for people who use the software. There's no minimum skill level required for entry, so the quality is going to be all over the map. On this forum, inclusion is more important than the quality of the music.

But outside of this forum, I don't see any evidence that's the case. And the marketplace certainly doesn't support the claim.

She cried all night, but she's better now. But she is still unsure what she is...


^^THIS^^
Even my (cough, cough) pop music is accepted!

Everyone commenting in this thread is still here.
That seems pretty inclusive to me, with all the differing opinions.

<grin>

Hi Ray,

Enjoyed your posts on this topic.

You are right - I did start by honestly critiquing every song but yes I quickly learnt that this is not what the User Showcase forum is for.

So I do listen to every song but by and large I now only comment on the songs in genres that I know something about i.e. Blues, Swing, R&B (Rhythm & Blues), Soul & Rock N Roll.

I never tell someone they are singing out of tune.

If I really like the song I may suggest a few quick items that could make the song even better.

Best Regards
Nigel

I can see some people were disagreeing with my statement of "diversity and inclusion" on poor singers.

OK. Let me rephrase.

As listeners, when we discover a singer has an unpleasant, unprofessional, and cringey vocal, we are not supposed to hurt his feelings by telling him he is out of tune. Starting a mostly peaceful protest, also known as sharing a constructive criticism in the forum, is not always appreciated and considered political correct. Instead, what we should do, is simply skip this singer without saying anything, and move on to the next one.

In this way, not only the singer can continue to enjoy uploading his songs without knowing he is out of tune, but also the listeners can continue to enjoy other people's songs with better vocals. It is a win-win deal, isn't it?

My impression of the showcase here is that it is for the enjoyment of BIAB customers who wish to share what they've created using the software in a supportive and friendly forum. As far as I can tell the showcase is NOT a place like TAXI where you can receive actual critiques from vetted/qualified industry professionals. Not to say there aren't pros here but in this showcase anyone can post and anyone can critique (whether they are qualified to do so or not!)

My advice would be to NOT offer critiques unless they are specifically requested. Be supportive and find something nice to say instead.

Regarding the whole autotune conversation I'd say use it if you want and don't use it if you don't want to! There is no "correct" answer. If you like the result then do it!

It's a good starting point for people who are new to the forum

I always ask for feedback, good or bad, because I'm here to improve. There are some damn good ears here.
And I can handle negative feedback, whether it's objective or someone just doesn't like my style of music.

When I comment on other people's music, it depends on the person, some can handle criticism very well, others not, some I just don't know well enough.
But in any case I am always polite and write constructive feedback.

And my last point: you can't make blanket judgments for everyone.
If someone is a great singer, songwriter, producer and whatnot, I address small nits (if there are any).
If someone is a beginner or just less talented, I address things that are achievable for that person.

And lastly, I always try to find something good in a song or performance, there's (almost) always something to like about a song, and I want to encourage people to write more music.
Even the worst song is better than no song at all.
It's all about the music!

(this is probably my longest post ever)

This thread is entertaining, I’ll give it that.

I heard Sir Paul in concert a few months ago. All those decades of screaming and smoking have caught up with him to the point where his intonation is in Willie Nelson territory.

Ya know what? It didn’t matter one bit. He was great and everyone had a good time.

Not a straw man argument. Not even an argument, just observations.

People use that straw man thing a lot I guess because it sounds good, but look it up and see what it means. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Will address others in a blanket response.