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The Peter Jackson "Let it Be" documentary. They worked on music with lyrics absent, in fragments, unfinished and/or unpolished. Clearly the music was most important. But it's not a song until it's sung. To my mind, that is axiomatic. To be a song, it must have lyrics--even if they are uber-simple and repetitive. Since your question was to and about song-writers/writing, that's the only answer that makes sense.
The most important part of songwriting is to start. If you don't start, you can't finish. The second most important part, is probably to finish. You reckon? If you don't finish, it's not finished. For me, the last part to completely come together--to finish--is most often the lyrics. No longer absent, in fragments, unfinished, or (hopefully) unpolished. I can't recall ever writing a song with "dummy/stand-in" music. Nearly everything I've written has had some degree of "stand-in/dummy" lyric before it was finished. I also can't recall a song when either was completely finished before the other was well on it's way...except certain collaborations. But I've no doubt they would have proceeded differently if we'd been in the same room.
So my "vote" is...music is boss. But music without lyrics is not song-writing.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. I very rarely set poems to music. If something is going to change during the course of writing in service to the song, it's the lyric which usually gives way first...unless I've written a stellar line. Even then, I've written it in a way to be sung. Which is part of the music.
So music is boss, but the lyric is integral to the music. Which is boss.
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That is very interesting Tangmo.
I started the thread because I was interested in how other people work, knowing that not everyone works the same, nor do they need to, nor are they supposed to, of course.
There is a pretty funny Rolling Stones recording I heard off of a live album that recorded the sessions when they were writing the song Miss You. It started out with Billy Preston and Mick Jagger just jamming and Mick Jagger was just babbling incoherent nonsense into the microphone forever until he finally started singing fragments of the words that appear in the song as it exists now. ".....and, ugh....I miss you!"
I remember laughing really hard when I heard that because that's kind of how I write. I just can't write without jamming.
So I'll just sit there and jam away on the piano or guitar or whatever forever and then finally some words start coming out of my mouth that seem like they would make a good hook and then it kind of takes off from there.
Not saying that this is how it should be done, but it never really works for me to not have some kind of musical groove first to write the lyrics to.
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David, I may not be as groovy as you, but I pretty much agree. I usually won't even bother starting a song if I don't have a bit of lyric (with melody and a way to sing it rhythmically), but music most often drives the lyric rather than the other way round and neither gets too far ahead of the other. I've written other ways, so I know they too are possible from my own experience. But writing to a groove is absolutely my preference.
If it's not EASIER to write like that, it's definitely more fun. Rock on.
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Hi David,
I hope that you and your family are keeping well. This is just my humble take on your question.
I agree with Tangmo. Music stands alone. I suspect that that's why classical composers are still enjoyed by many people. The successful ones have somehow managed to tap into pysches and captivate people's imaginations. Lyrics, on the other hand, are often not strong enough to stand alone as poetry. As Tangmo has pointed out, good lyrics are those that support the musicality of the song. For me, all the sonic lyric devices (such as rhyme, assonance, consonance, repetition, onomatopoeia, syllabic stress, etc.) are important to the production of the final presentation.
My own style of writing used to be just melody and accompaniment. I had no idea how to fit words to music. Then, in the early 2000s, I met Pat Pattison. I attended many of his seminars, and through his teaching, I learnt many strategies for putting words together. These days, most of my songs start with words. I often create a verse and a chorus before I start thinking about melody and chord progressions. Sometimes I do this with drums playing in the background, and sometimes it's just the rhythmic flow of the words' stressed and unstressed syllables. While I'm working with words, I find the rhyming sequences usually develop as well.
If I initially start creating a song from lyrics, when I start setting the words to music, lyrics and music go hand in hand. Because I notate all my songs, lyrics, music and chords often change as I zigzag my way to the final product.
Recently, I set a poem to music, Elizabeth Barrett Browing's "How Do I Love Thee" (Sonnet #43). Out of respect for Barrett Browning (1806–1861), I tried to keep the first verse poetically accurate. In the end, I found that I added a word that Barrett Browning didn't use. After the first verse, though, I used fragments of the poem's words along with my words to create a song. It was an interesting experience.
As I said, this is just how I do things. I don't know whether or not it's useful information.
All the best,
--Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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I likely should have read this thread, but way too long for my attention span.
So I will only add, Paul wrote the music to Let it Be in a couple hours. It took a couple of weeks to get the words written. Which is why I vote: lyrics are most important.
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I am confused. If Paul wrote the music in 4 minutes, but took a month to write the lyrics, doesn't that mean the lyrics came last?  Hmmmmm....... Maybe I should have read my own post. Too busy though. And I'm working on this ice cream cone. God save the Queen man! Dog-faced pony....uh...something.... Bye....
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OK, enough is enough.
This is the final Music or Lyrics: Which One Is the Boss answer:
I am the boss!
I will decide which one comes first!
Case closed.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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I like Mário's humor and at the same time how he stands up for himself, and as a lyricist I wrote lyrics for professional bands in our small country, so I should stand on the other side of Mário. But I don't stand elsewhere and agree with Mario that the song has melody, harmony and rhythm. It is defined that way and it comes from many years of experience and not from one head. And both lyrics and a song without lyrics can exist independently and thus be useful independently. But a good song is created in the cooperation of text and music and in the interplay of both. Both forms help each other in several of their parameters, and for example, let's name two that are among the most important, if we leave out the content of the text and the musical style of the song. And that is the sonority of the text and for the music the dynamics (not included in the definition of the song), in which interplay is what should work. And what else is applied to make the song as good as possible. It starts with the arrangement and then comes the professional sound and the better the performer the better and at the same time the band and much more. And finally, a song has to be lucky beyond just entering the world at the right time in the right place. My experience when listening to the charts is that my favorite song drops out prematurely at, say, the sixtieth place and then I never hear it again. What I wrote is not my wisdom, but I just summarized what I have collected in my life. I am 72 years old and have been playing guitar since I was 10 years old. Due to health reasons, I stopped playing the guitar and I am grateful to the music software that I can continue to play music, especially the software from PGMUSIC, with which I start when creating songs and which I return to when improving songs. As a lyricist I worked with professional bands from our Czech Republic, but as a musician I feel like an amateur and I don't make a living from music, but music is the spiritual delicacy of my retired life. My texts and my music are registered - the copyright protection association "Ochranný Svaz Autorský- OSA", which represents me, and we probably have it easier than many places around the world. I don't care what I start with, whether it's music or text, and often it was created at the same time and in different ways and procedures. I learned to arrange, but with the sound I go to the studio with a friend - a professional sound engineer. I appreciate my gifts of singing, writing, composing and arranging, but there are enough better singers, lyricists, composers and arrangers than me in our country, let alone in the whole world. However, it doesn't matter to me as an amateur, I always have someone to learn from. I apologize for using Google translator to translate from Czech to English, because I don't speak English well and it may happen that I miss something from Mario's good humor.
Last edited by Gause Zdenek; 06/17/23 06:14 AM.
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I likely should have read this thread, but way too long for my attention span.
So I will only add, Paul wrote the music to Let it Be in a couple hours. It took a couple of weeks to get the words written. Which is why I vote: lyrics are most important. Bad example that defies logic. He took weeks to get a mediocre lyric into shape. This tune, as an instrumental, has been covered thousands of times and is a background music staple. Tons of great songs have terrible lyrics. Bang a Gong comes to mind immediately.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. … No. We’re using the English language as a communication medium here. The Lyrics are the words. When you ascribe musical qualities to those words, you are talking about music. Yes, really. Rap is a great example, especially in the early days when there was often no melody at all: it was still words and music. People have been having that discussion for hundreds of years.
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don't think there's an answer
there are hundreds (at least) of jazz standards that have long ago effectively left their lyrics in the dust. Many of the old timers on this thread may remember Frank, or Tony or Ella singing one of these tunes.
But at least a couple of generations of players exist that don't know the words to Aint Misbehavin, Desafinado, Autumn Leaves, Softly as in Morning Sunshine, etc or so many others.
The words to many are gone, yet the melodies remain.
For example- Autumn Leaves has to be one of the most played songs in the jazz repertoire.
How often do you hear somebody sing it (in french or english)? One it ten times perhaps? Probably less.
Its just an observation.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. … No. We’re using the English language as a communication medium here. The Lyrics are the words. "The words", without a musical context, are not a "song lyric"--which was the question David asked. They may be a poem. They may be some other kind of writing. They may even one day become song lyrics. But until they are part of a song, they are not song lyrics. When you ascribe musical qualities to those words, you are talking about music. Yes, really. Rap is a great example, especially in the early days when there was often no melody at all: it was still words and music. People have been having that discussion for hundreds of years. Here, you make my point. Yes, I'm talking about the music of a song lyric. When those words become part of a song they become music. A Capella is a great example. And yes, I include Rap in "songs". If the definition of "song" has become broad enough to include pieces of music which have never been married to a lyric, then it should include lyrics which have no discernible melodic connection to the rest of the music. If a song-writer writes a song by setting poems to music, more power to them. That's not how I write, neither alone nor with partners. My lyrics are from the beginning musical and intended to ultimately become part of a particular song. Therefor, music is boss. Other things I write are (usually) not. Thus they are not song lyrics, and don't serve to answer David's question.
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I like Mário's humor and at the same time how he stands up for himself, and as a lyricist I wrote lyrics for professional bands in our small country, so I should stand on the other side of Mário. But I don't stand elsewhere and agree with Mario that the song has melody, harmony and rhythm. It is defined that way and it comes from many years of experience and not from one head. And both lyrics and a song without lyrics can exist independently and thus be useful independently. But a good song is created in the cooperation of text and music and in the interplay of both. Both forms help each other in several of their parameters, and for example, let's name two that are among the most important, if we leave out the content of the text and the musical style of the song. And that is the sonority of the text and for the music the dynamics (not included in the definition of the song), in which interplay is what should work. And what else is applied to make the song as good as possible. It starts with the arrangement and then comes the professional sound and the better the performer the better and at the same time the band and much more. And finally, a song has to be lucky beyond just entering the world at the right time in the right place. My experience when listening to the charts is that my favorite song drops out prematurely at, say, the sixtieth place and then I never hear it again. What I wrote is not my wisdom, but I just summarized what I have collected in my life. I am 72 years old and have been playing guitar since I was 10 years old. Due to health reasons, I stopped playing the guitar and I am grateful to the music software that I can continue to play music, especially the software from PGMUSIC, with which I start when creating songs and which I return to when improving songs. As a lyricist I worked with professional bands from our Czech Republic, but as a musician I feel like an amateur and I don't make a living from music, but music is the spiritual delicacy of my retired life. My texts and my music are registered - the copyright protection association "Ochranný Svaz Autorský- OSA", which represents me, and we probably have it easier than many places around the world. I don't care what I start with, whether it's music or text, and often it was created at the same time and in different ways and procedures. I learned to arrange, but with the sound I go to the studio with a friend - a professional sound engineer. I appreciate my gifts of singing, writing, composing and arranging, but there are enough better singers, lyricists, composers and arrangers than me in our country, let alone in the whole world. However, it doesn't matter to me as an amateur, I always have someone to learn from. I apologize for using Google translator to translate from Czech to English, because I don't speak English well and it may happen that I miss something from Mario's good humor. It's nice to meet you. I agree with everything you wrote.
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Thank you for agreeing with me Tangmo and I appreciate it and nice to meet you. I equally respect everyone who disagrees with me but is willing to communicate with me here. It's more difficult for me, my English is not good and I use Google translator, which sometimes and sometimes even more turns the meaning around for me, and that's why before I post it as a post, I check it by translating it back into Czech and correct it several times until it makes the right sense to me. However, this may not make sense to anyone reading my post in English. It also happens to me that I overlook an essential piece of information in the translation into Czech and write it down incorrectly. An example is David Cuny, who featured A.I. female singers and I urged David that the A.I. singer Asterian added to a post about female singers. I was quite sorry, but it was my stupidity. I put my new songs on SoundCloud with A.I. singers and I don't know how to permanently put two links in my profile, so I put them here. My original songs where I sing or my friends or two instrumentals are on the link "gauzde new songs" https://soundcloud.com/user-920889151-633155523/sets/gauzde-new-songsMy new songs with A.I. singers or even by mistake in one case with my singing. Link "aigauzdesong" https://soundcloud.com/user-920889151-633155523/sets/aigauzdesongAfter a while I go to sleep (here in Prague it is 3:42 am already early in the morning). I am an owl and I live at night.
Last edited by Gause Zdenek; 07/23/23 05:42 PM.
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What an interesting question... I see lyrics as a natural part of a music - being born in my heart, they dance together...
Frankly, in real world, I got either lyrics or music and then the other part is being created... Sorry for speaking straight, it really depends on who comes first - you can't say who it will be, because lyrics contain music, words contain music like notes contain a tune...
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Alex, Very interesting and very true. Any great lyricist knows that the sound of the words are music in and of themselves, and they carry musical tones, and rhythm, and many facets of linguistic coloring that become inseparable from the notes in great songs. A freshman class in linguistics or poetry at any good college would teach that. Beautiful wording IS music too. So, yes there is a certain amount of alchemy to it all. Now that I have heard the song "Yesterday," I cannot hear the music without hearing the words, and I cannot hear the words without hearing the music. There is magic in it all.
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Hi, David !
For me it is always the music that comes first !
I think it is easier to adjust the lyrics to
the song when it is as good as ready, but
the ideal seems to be that you can work
on both at the same time i.e. you can always
change either the music or the lyrics
to get maximum flow !
I find it more difficult to try and write
music to defined unchangeable lyrics !
Cheers
Dani
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Lyrics (at least in the Country Genre) is the boss
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Many is the song reduced to its basic elements so that an instrumentalist can do their thing.
Jazz is a musical form that encourages this as it facilitates improvisation.
Lyrical improvisation is a little trickier which is why cats scat.
Lots of people, at a gig in the audience, sing fab/iconic/classic guitar solos.
Words are shapes for the sound but good words help the sound tell a story better.
For my part I, generally, dislike instrumental pop/rock/jazz music because I like lyrics, I like the literary story telling part.
An interesting test is to listen to music sung in a language you don't understand and don't know. This either makes some folk reach for the non existent subtitles, listen to it and imagine the lyric or listen to it as sound. Non English opera is like the latter for me. I don't want to know the story just the sounds'll do.
Cheers
rayc
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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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Forums66
Topics81,662
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Jan 19th, 2020
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