gordon...heres a challenge. one of the problems with diy mic pres useing op amps is need for + - supplies for the op amps as you know. see if you can come up with a easy to build mic pre useing single supply op amp with low noise and high gain with xlr in for mic... plus variable input impedence. ive never seen a schem yet...its all dual rail supplies.
All techie-stuff again, feel free to ignore.
There are various ways to build a single-supply pre-amp, but they still all need at least a DC block(*) (e.g. capacitor) on the output and almost always also similar on the input. Most single-supply Op-Amps go nowhere near the 48V of phantom power. I doubt any of the few are low-noise, but it's possible. The choices for best low-noise, low distortion, OpAmps is surprisingly modest (or was the last time I looked deeply at this). Interestingly, JFETs have a functional advantage here, because, like valves, they can have their input biassed at 0V, which can remove the need for a separate input DC blocker.
I suspect a discrete solution with one of those low-noise JFETs as the input and gain device, with a constant current load for linearity and a bipolar output buffer would actually perform pretty well in comparison with pretty much any OpAmp solution and would not want a split supply. Condenser mics use an arrangement like that, though usually have a higher voltage signal out from the diaphragm to the FET than a dynamic has, but that diaphragm signal is at far too high an impedance to send down the cable unbuffered.
Addendum... Interestingly, having written that, I had a quick look for more information on the FETHead and found a "what's inside", that shows four FETs (probably Toshiba 2SK209-GR or 2SK880-GR)(***), three resistors and a couple of other devices that look like either diodes or capacitors, though initially I can't see why they would fit either of those ... static protection, maybe?(**) With so few resistors, that suggests to me very limited negative feedback, so not the lowest of distortions, but maybe that's an acceptable trade-off. It looks like it's probably a very simple pair of feedback pairs in a bridge arrangement. I'm intrigued enough that I may try simulating what I think it looks like. If it works as well as people say it's an excellent example of form-follows-function minimalism. Respect.
(*) Apparently not ... the FETHead doesn't seem to have any, though as I guess the pre-amp must have DC blocks against the phantom power, they can get away without them in their module. That also supports my "bridge" thought.
(**) Edit: They'll be diodes or VDRs, primarily to protect the FET's gates from the 48V power at switch-on/plug-in.
(***) Hmm ... despite the package marking suggesting those parts, they're actually MOSFETs, not JFETs! Curious; Toshiba list them under MOSFETs then describe them as JFETs.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 12/29/2304:58 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
obviously i dont have your depth of knowledge in electronics. but if you ever come up with a minimum parts schem for a mic pre with xlr diff in...it would a fun little thing for me to try as a winter project...whether it uses jfets or bipolar transistors or single supply op amp. ...or even better if an option would be a variable input impedence..resistor array ?
as far as i understand the fethead is very low noise. yep i checked on google ein is -129. and tracks ive recorded with it seem to bear that out and sound good. i like it and it doesnt give me any hassle....lol.
ps for gearheads out there i just transferred pg old ultrapak to a new m2 hooked up to mini pc via usb 3. im ecstatic and never had such fast response from bb. im amazed. i used a m2 thats capable of 5000 mb per sec the blurb says.
thanks. i actually have tried those schems cos i have databooks here. never could get them to work over the years. guess im a dummie...lol....
i need a how to build a single supply xlr input mic pre with variable input impedence for dummies....lol. i might try the 5 buck micpre again that uses the ina op amp.
Single supply voltage, hi-gain op amps have been a mainstay in surveillance circuits since the 70's/80's. Here's an example.
They have and many are very good performers, but they would need to be used with 48V phantom feed, which does add a hurdle. It can most certainly be done, but they need a voltage regulator. Quite a few will go a below rail on the input and rail-to-rail on the output, so input biassing can be a minimal issue. I think one can draw up to 5mA milliamps, which is likely more than enough as many such OpAmps draw only microAmps. A simple low-quiescent regulator is probably OK, though again 48V might be a bit of a challenge. Driving a 2k2 load might also prove a bit of a challenge. These things should all be do-able enough, though. Whether it's the best way in another matter.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
i like it and it doesnt give me any hassle....lol.
Which is what matters.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
Using a cloud lifter or other inline boost is doable but it's rare to find an interface these days that doesn't have sufficient preamp gain.
Another nonsense armchair expert video. I am not going to write a page pointing out all the ways it is crap.
I have tested 43 current USB and TB interfaces for a company that, unfortunately, I cannot name (it can be guessed but I cannot confirm). None of them have adequate gain for dynamic mics except M•Audio — and they actually do recommend using a Cloudlifter with dynamics.
The Mackie FxPro()v3 series is ok but theirs will choke on an SM7B. Interestingly, the current M•Audio AIR does not but only when used up close on a voice over goosed to 9.7 or so.
You'd be surprised what I find under the hood. Only Native Instruments and SSL admit to using the Cirrus Logic chip sets but nearly all the others do, too.
I'm hoping that I find a new generation of interfaces being announced when I go to Winter NAMM next month. Decent preamp gain and 32 bit float is what I want to see in the next generation. The current gen using the CL chips was introduced in 3rd Q 2019 though few shipped before 2020.
BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer 11, LogicPro Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
Mike and Gordon, thanks for all that reading about speaker cables. I really did have the conversation about faster electrons in Monster Cables, in a little audio store in Maine at my son's college. Great fun, the new physics.
I ran an electronics store fifty years ago. At that time, I wired two adjacent rooms in my house with 16 gauge wire (just fat lamp wire) and haven't touched it since. I still have the original Kenwood amp and tuner, AR turntable, and Pioneer speakers and they all still work great.
I did note that the article mentioned connecting points can become a problem over time, so I just finished disconnecting the speaker wires, stripping the cables a bit, and making new connections on each end. When I am 123, I will do this process again.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Another nonsense armchair expert video. I am not going to write a page pointing out all the ways it is crap.
I have tested 43 current USB and TB interfaces for a company that, unfortunately, I cannot name (it can be guessed but I cannot confirm). None of them have adequate gain for dynamic mics except M•Audio — and they actually do recommend using a Cloudlifter with dynamics.
The videos are definitely slightly simplified and take a few liberties, perhaps not 'his fault', but are discussing the noise floor of the pre-amps not the gain of the pre-amps. He says "if your Ein is below -129 dBu you likely don't need a pre-amp". Bearing in mind that the Johnson noise at room temperature of the 150R source most use is -130.9 dBu, I'm inclined to agree with him. It would be better if the specifications given by manufacturers were consistent, though, for example on the weighting used for the measurements, otherwise one makers -129 dBu may not equal another's -129 dBu, which is not too helpful.
Of course this thread is headed "If your audio interface doesnt have enough gain...read on." and the videos don't address that.
The videos were aimed at "ordinary people" to give a guide about how and when to consider parting with their money in the search for a better noise performance. I think they do that well.
Edit: One other thing Mike may imply is that that 'standard' 150R source is not a microphone, and a microphone can be a fairly significantly different source of noise within the signal chain. 150R is "representative" but not "actual".
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 12/30/2305:03 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
... adding more electronics to the signal chain is not necessarily better.
I thought precisely the same, though the subject line is about lack of gain.
Gain can be added "in the box". Digital gain adds precisely zero noise (though it does of course amplify whatever noise is already there).
I've personally found that some of these inline boosters add more noise than simply adding a gain plugin - for example, a few of the ones I tested provided 20db of gain, but also provided more than 20db of noise.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
FWIW, I once had a Hi-Fi store demonstration have me doubting my assertion that cables cannot be directional, until I realised that their own bias was causing them to turn the volume slightly higher for the "correct direction".
Directional cables exist and can be beneficial. Consider ground loops - lifting ground at one end of the cable can remove the ground loop, but in some cases there can be a measurable reduction in noise having the lifted end at one end vs the other end.
Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
Canare Star-quad
Canare star quad is fantastic cable, and star quad in general is one of the few ways one cable can be "better" than another.
Originally Posted by rayc
If you REALLY love the sound of your low sensitivity microphone then I can understand the desire to add the inline but why not address the real problem by getting a better interface? Naturally people's experience, equipment, understanding, taste, objectivity and hearing will vary.
This is what I almost always recommend. I use an SM7B directly into my Scarlett mk3 without any sort of booster, and it sounds fantastic. On the very rare occasion that I'm recording something too quiet for an SM7B, I simply use a more sensitive microphone - but that's typically under circumstances where an SM7B wouldn't be appropriate, even with a booster.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
i might try the 5 buck micpre again that uses the ina op amp.
I suggest this one. Have built a few myself over the years, including some more "deluxe" ones with phantom power, pad, high pass, and balanced output. We compared them against high end preamps from API, Avalon, SSL, and UAD - and the INA217 preamp held its ground easily in a double blind comparison with a dozen audio engineers and students participating. Most people felt the "character" was closest to the Avalon, and it was quieter than all of them.
Pad, phantom power, and high pass are easy to figure out. For balanced output I used a DRV134PA chip which requires very minimal components to provide balanced output (and is tolerant of shorting one output to ground in the case of unbalanced output).
FWIW I also tried using some of the other single-chip preamps like the SSM2017 and SSM2019, but I've had every single one of those chips eventually fry.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
They have and many are very good performers, but they would need to be used with 48V phantom feed
48v isn't a big issue here, since typically the 48v is run through a pair of 6k8 resistors which drop a chunk of that voltage and also limit to a maximum of ~14ma. If the circuit is drawing more than a few milliamps, that can easily drop the voltage to ~30v which I'd say most decent op-amps can handle - and if not, add some resistance to pull the voltage down a bit more (or a zener, but that can add noise).
I'd imagine that having signal on the power rail could be more of an issue for op-amps than for discrete JFETs or BJTs - perhaps this is why they're not widely used in 48v inline preamps.
Directional cables exist and can be beneficial. Consider ground loops - lifting ground at one end of the cable can remove the ground loop, but in some cases there can be a measurable reduction in noise having the lifted end at one end vs the other end.
The observation is sound, but "directional cables" are not implicated. You could reverse a "directional cable" end-for-end, repeat that test, and the outcome would be the same, all other things equal.
Originally Posted by Simon - PG Music
48v isn't a big issue here, since typically the 48v is run through a pair of 6k8 resistors which drop a chunk of that voltage and also limit to a maximum of ~14ma. If the circuit is drawing more than a few milliamps, that can easily drop the voltage to ~30v which I'd say most decent op-amps can handle - and if not, add some resistance to pull the voltage down a bit more (or a zener, but that can add noise).
6k81 +/- 0.1% is the standard. The value isn't really critical and 6k8 is a very standard value. The +/- 0.1% is important for line balance and hence noise pick-up.
I'm a mostly-retired designer. I'll either use suitably rated components (and margins!) and I'll control the conditions if necessary. For me "most decent op-amps can handle" is not an option. If one makes a mistake and there are 10,000 instances of the product in the field, one has questions to answer! I have made the occasional mistake. They can be very expensive for the manufacturer.
Originally Posted by Simon - PG Music
I'd imagine that having signal on the power rail could be more of an issue for op-amps than for discrete JFETs or BJTs - perhaps this is why they're not widely used in 48v inline preamps.
The 48V is, of course, actually on the signal lines, so unavoidable. It must be taken off in the mic or pre-amp for use and however it's taken off must also not risk feeding noise back into the cable. I suspect the reasons Op-Amps are not more widely used in in-line pre-amps is that they tend to cost more, particularly once one a dealt with the supply issues, and with discrete parts, whilst there may be a little more distortion, it's low enough and typically of the "warm" 2nd harmonic form, that's of very little importance.
BTW, I made a SPICE model of what I believe the FETHead comprises, though using other JFET models with similar characteristics and had the right gain and a nice clean signal as far as I could tell by eye. I didn't try to prove noise levels or distortion. They could have done it with only two FETs, but using the four gives an additional small noise improvement. They do only cost a few cents each, though, so the profit margin is pretty near unaffected. As so often, the mechanicals and assembly are where the costs lie. Edit: Incidentally, my model suggested that the circuit heads into clipping territory at an acoustic level of around 110 dB SPL, depending on the mic(*), but at that sort of level, noise shouldn't really be a concern. (*) Or about 116 with that rather insensitive SM7B
Hmm ... costs etc., That SSM2019 is listed on DigiKey at £2.50 at 2500 off ($3?), whilst 2SK880-GR is listed a 15p at 3000 (20 cents?). And no need for power supply to guarantee that the supply to the chip doesn't go above it's 36V rating.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 12/30/2306:01 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
excuse my dumb question...i am not at your level.. but curious. my question is...in a in line jfet based preamp would it be easier to build than a op amp based one ? with simpler voltage supply schematic ? i always seem to screw up with op amps.
if you guys ever come up with a easy diy in line preamp with variable input impedence...would make a great learning experience for me. i cant find on the net much info re diy in line jfet circuits.
i'm curious at the next namm if we see new usb interfaces with higher preamp gain so i can experiment with getting distant nature sounds.
my question is...in a in line jfet based preamp would it be easier to build than a op amp based one ? with simpler voltage supply schematic ?
The short answer is definitely, yes, as Triton have amply demonstrated. Their preamp uses just 9 electronic components and could have used just seven, and it uses the 48V directly as its power source. Extracting, isolating and regulating/stabilising power for OpAmps can be a bit of a faff and relatively much more complex and costly.
FYI, I've just looked very briefly at a Cloudlifter CL-1 teardown and what looks on it like a pair of OpAmps are actually 8-pin packages each containing a pair of discrete JFETs, so the principle is likely similar. Again no real power issues, though the FETs are 40V, so something needs to draw enough to keep the Vds below 40V.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
thanks for the info. its just my technical curiosity. i salute your electronics knowledge...
what is rocking me right now is how speedy 2024 is now ive installed it on m2 hooked to my new ryzen mini pc via usb 3. just so fast. bb boots so crazy fast...bam.
sounds like jfets are the way to go. so for jfet circuits is bipolar power needed ? just curious.
The considerable improvements in two areas of BIAB 2024 make it hard for me to determine which I like better: the improved program loading speed, or the improved regeneration speed. Both are very welcome.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
sounds like jfets are the way to go. so for jfet circuits is bipolar power needed ? just curious.
One of the handy things about JFETs is that, like valves, they're essentially self-biassing, because the gate (like grid on a valve/tube) can be at 0V and the source (like cathode on a valve/tube) rises until the voltage on the source causes the 0V on the gate to settle at the point where the gate starts to turn off the device. In both the FETHead and Cloudlifter CL-1 circuits, that's exactly how they bias. They both just use the +48V that already exists on the signal wires and they both use the current-limit resistors at their loads.
No special arrangements for power.
Where the circuits differ markedly is that the FETHead uses 50V parts and just drives the current-limit resistors directly, using two JFETs in parallel to reduce the noise a little more. The Cloudlifter in contrast uses a 40V JFET, so has to control the voltage on the drains, so uses a configuration usually known as cascade, where it stacks one JFET on top of another. That reduces the Voltage on the upper JFET's drain to 36V on a 48V system. Both circuits are therefore with their ratings on phantom power at 48V. One slight concern is that if the phantom is at the (allowed) 52V, both circuits go out of spec., however I rather doubt anyone now uses 52V.
FWIW, the Cloudlifter uses slightly noisier JFETs than the FETHead and whilst the FETHead parallels two to reduce the noise, I suspect((*) that the cascode arrangement does not do that. The cascode arrangement might, though, make the Cloudlifter slightly lower distortion, as it offers some negative feedback.
(*)I'd have to check or test and I'm not sure I could be bothered. I reckon the FETHead is 'typically' about 1dB quieter.
There is allegedly a DIY version of the Cloudlifter out there. I couldn't possibly comment.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
Matt. re speed i agree 100 per cent. loving it. never been as good. Happy new year. om
Gordon. great info. i see the upside of jfets. its a pity one doesnt see more jfet audio schematics while op amps one sees lots. i'm just trying to learn.
its a pity one doesnt see more jfet audio schematics while op amps one sees lots.
Bipolar transistors are still a little quieter than JFETs, though the best of each are quite close to the limits of physics at room temperature. Bipolar transistors can be a little lower distortion than JFETs, though in the mic pre-amp circuits that's not all that significant. In truth distortion in microphone itself probably dominates. OpAmps can be surprisingly good and are probably easier to manage. For many purposes there's really very little benefit in using discrete parts. 1dB maybe.
Bipolar transistors are best for ribbon mics with no transformer as they can be better matched to the very low impoedance, but tring to do that on phantom feed is probably a lost cause and again we're likely talking only a dB or few.
Cooling the circuit substantially can improve all these things be several dB, but again that's not something one could really do electrically/electronically via phantom power. It might be feasible to chill just the junction of transistors with a tiny Peltier device, but the power management would be crazy, assuming it's even technically possible.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
Directional cables exist and can be beneficial. Consider ground loops - lifting ground at one end of the cable can remove the ground loop, but in some cases there can be a measurable reduction in noise having the lifted end at one end vs the other end.
The observation is sound, but "directional cables" are not implicated. You could reverse a "directional cable" end-for-end, repeat that test, and the outcome would be the same, all other things equal. …
Since Simon didn’t quite explain what a true diretlional cable is, only their use, your answer is incorrect.
Directional cables have nothing to do with the stereo store boutique cables scam where the flow of electrons is somehow important. If it were, your answer would have been right.
Actual directional cables are balanced cables with a shield disconnected at one end and are used for the purpose Simon mentioned—to break up ground loops and reversing the direction renders that function ineffective. They are often spec’d in broadcast and TV studios where their use is necessary to solve problems (I used to have a Class 1 FCC License) as well as other installations. You can even buy instrument cables with that design—the shield is connected at the amp—but I’ve never found a situation where one actually lowered the noise floor. They were a fad in the late 1970s using Belden blue cable that turned out to be way too fragile for use as guitar cables.
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Directional cables exist and can be beneficial. Consider ground loops - lifting ground at one end of the cable can remove the ground loop, but in some cases there can be a measurable reduction in noise having the lifted end at one end vs the other end.
The observation is sound, but "directional cables" are not implicated. You could reverse a "directional cable" end-for-end, repeat that test, and the outcome would be the same, all other things equal. …
Since Simon didn’t quite explain what a true diretlional cable is, only their use, your answer is incorrect.
Directional cables have nothing to do with the stereo store boutique cables scam where the flow of electrons is somehow important. If it were, your answer would have been right.
Actual directional cables are balanced cables with a shield disconnected at one end and are used for the purpose Simon mentioned—to break up ground loops and reversing the direction renders that function ineffective. They are often spec’d in broadcast and TV studios where their use is necessary to solve problems (I used to have a Class 1 FCC License) as well as other installations. You can even buy instrument cables with that design—the shield is connected at the amp—but I’ve never found a situation where one actually lowered the noise floor. They were a fad in the late 1970s using Belden blue cable that turned out to be way too fragile for use as guitar cables.
Curious. I've never heard of that use of the term and couldn't, in a quick look on the Web, find any examples of the use. Is it possible that that's a peculiarly Nort-American term and my geographical location is giving me only the Hi-Fi nonsense? I have to concede that at the moment I don't really understand what makes the cables about which Simon and you speak are "directional", but clearly we seem to be talking about quite different things. I certainly acknowledge that the orientation can be important.
For me, cables with the screen disconnected are just that ... cables with the screen disconnected at one end.
Edit: A longer look around today finds some examples of that use of the term "directional cable". Personally I think it's a bad/confusing term, but that's life. I've always tried hard to avoid disconnecting screens, of course, but have to acknowledge that there are times when one appears to have little other choice, especially when the clock is ticking on, e.g., stage or studio time. I have a couple of baluns with ground-lift for when I'm desperate. I rarely use them, but then my cabling setups are relatively simple.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 01/02/2404:33 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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