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Hello all. I'm asking this question on behalf of my ensemble-friends.
We're all pretty new at this game and suppose our ideas have passed through many a mind before they passed through ours! Our apologizes if these questions are too broad or this isn't the right forum. Would you please address our question(s) based on whatever you feel your level or area of expertise is. We're happy to be new BiaB players and thankful for a forum like this to help us along. Thank you in advance!
We just bought BiaB for our ensemble. We also bought a program called SmartScore so we can import scans of our collection of sheet-music to BiaB.
One of us plays keyboards, one guitar and the other trumpet. We enjoy the play-along features of BiaB. We use a lot of the Real Book stuff and Hal Leonard play-alongs to learn and play our favorite jazz tunes. BiaB is affording us the ability to quickly create our own renditions or arrangements and this is exciting! We're all 'old guys' now and nobody is looking to start a music career and in fact, it's kinda nice that we're all retired and have the time and desire to do this -- nobody MUST do this, we WANT to. But ...
Playing together is our hobby of course but we've recently been talking about playing local piano lounges. As our 'setup' guy, I envision using the BiaB technology as our accompaniment along with another member (a sound / lighting engineer), controlling the PC, recording, board, lighting, etc.
We want to know if any of you have done this before or if you are currently doing this (using BiaB to perform in public). We want to know if you can give us some specifics as to how an ensemble sets up for something like this -- none of us know how. I thought I'd ask first before walking into the music store with a blank look on our faces (and blank checks too probably). I guess it would help if I tell you what we DO have:
* A brand-new quad-cord PC with 1TB hard drive & BiaB (and all the other stuff).
* A Yamaha non-midi electric keyboard (with headphone out jack).
* An Electric / Acoustic Guitar with Pickup.
* Trumpet - With Yamaha electric mute.
A final question is, what specific kinds of equipment do I need to get us set up to play in a piano lounge environment based on our instruments and using BiaB with a PC? Any and all recommendations. I'd like to hear how you're using it to perform anywhere.
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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There are many here who use BIAB as live backup. I don't do much of that, but when I do, I prepare the backing tracks on my home PC and save them as MP3 or WAV files for my portable music player. All I need is a PA. I would prefer not to take a computer to a gig. Some here do that with no problem, though.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I am spending a year getting ready to do what you want.
First I researched because I needed a sound system.
I spent hours, hundreds of hours. I had speakers on poles. Make that 4 trips in (I'm just one guy with mobility issues). Then the amp. It's heavy enough, I have a powered Mixer so that's one hand and 30 pounds. And the briefcase with cables in the other. Next the keyboard and stand. Then the mic stand. And binders of music. (I was not using the computer at gigs at this point.)
TC
So we had a big anti-Bose thread here a few years back, might be 10 years. But someone (Mac?) started a thread about a guy playing and walking in with stuff, click click click Bob's yer uncle and it sounded good. I researched more and had to drive to Toronto with my mp3 player and a backing track. Bought a Bose L1 Model 2 with the Tonematch thing.
I found out after 3 months that I could sing, and do it on key. So I got a
TC -Helicon voicelive and figured out how to send chords from band in a box to it and turned it into a harmony section. Then I realized my mic was picking up to much stuff so back to the net, went to a couple of stores and ordered the Audix OM5 mic. Nice mic, you can whack the side and hear almost nothing, and you have to be almost on top of it to make it pick up your voice, so no feedback.
Now I'm still not out and about with a computer, but I can jack my midi from the keyboard to the voicebox and harmonize based on my playing. My Bose has a bass bin so, I trip for the first 3 parts, second the bass bin and the cable briefcase with some music in there, next the keyboard and stand. The bose takes less than 5 minutes to setup.
In the future I'm adding a computer into the mix, but I'm really busy with brass band until 15 April, and then a weeks vacation, and then...back to the sets.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I ave a friend that does exactly what you want. He plays guitar and horns. Not at the same time. Plays 3 nights a week continuously. Forget the sound guy. He also uses the same Bose System as John Conley mentions. But$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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***With today's laptops, one really does NOT need to invest in aftermarket soundcard device to get great sound from laptop to PA. This is likely due to the large consumer interest in playback of DVDs, the playback side of the built in soundcards now rivals what we can get from aftermarket sound devices (not so for the Recording side of the game, but since we are talking Live Performance with BiaB here, not a problem, or shouldn't be.). *** If you intend to use the VSC DXi or some other software MIDI synthesizer for any MIDI tracks, then you only need an adaptor to convert the earphone output of the laptop to a PA input. You should also get a Ground Loop Isolator for guaranteed hum-free quiet operation in different locations. Here is one example of the type of adaptor to connect the Earphone Jack output to dual RCA Stereo connects such as the Tape Inputs found on many of today's PA systems: (Note: I am using the RadioShack website for the sake of convenience in this post and to let you be able to view pictures of what these things look like. You can find these items at many different places or at Radio Shack. ) http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2290564 And here is a relatively inexpensive but proven in the field example of the Ground Loop Isolation transformer: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index....rentPage=search If your PA system does not have RCA inputs, You can use adaptors like these at the end of the above cable to change the RCAs to 1/4". I think its a good idea to get a pair of these "barrel adaptors" and carry them with you anyway, just in case you encounter that house PA or the shared PA with another act some day: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index....rentPage=family **When using the Earphone Jack as output to PA, make sure that you visit the Windows Sound Mixer and turn the Master fader plus any outputs that BiaB is using UP ALL THE WAY. Adjust volume at the PA or mixer board proper. This is because the Line Level signal works with less noise and more fidelity when it is *driven*. Earphone Jack level IS Line Level unbalanced audio, BTW. --Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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A very small PA system (mixer and two speakers) with a small subwoofer would likely serve you well. EV and QSC have some nice small scale powered speakers that sound great with a small subwoofer, which you will need to get good bass response. Or you could route the bass (from BIAB) through a small bass amp, with everything else going through the small PA speakers. A pair of Bose L1 compact speakers would probably work well too, without a separate subwoofer. I have the Bose "Classic" L1, which would also work OK. I also have a very nice small PA (Tannoy PowerV8's) which I use for everything but bass, which goes through a small Genz Benz bass amp
So far I like the Tannoys with the bass amp best, but this is just my opinion based testing things out in my (fairly large) music room at home. I've played many gigs (keyboard only or singer/keyboard) with both the Bose L1 and my Tannoys. I like the Tannoys a bit better because I can get stereo, which at small venues I think is a plus. At least I like how it sounds better!
I haven't tried out the rig with BIAB at a gig yet, but once I get BIAB gig ready, I'll find out how things sound soon enough.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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ikeinblackriver, my thoughts to your two questions: 1. As I understand it, BIAB was designed more as a creating tool for backing music rather than a live performance tool. So there are basically two ways to use the program. A. Use it live in the performance by an on stage computer. Advantages: You get the full power of BIAB on stage including variations in the accompaniment, ability to change tempo and pitch, ability to repeat sections or songs, select on the fly from thousands of songs on your computer, change instruments, mute instruments, and if you don't feel like playing for a while let the soloist do the work. You can also have music notation or lyrics displayed on screen instead of carrying paper books. Disadvantages: You must bring a decent computer to every gig (and watch it while on your brake  ... ), it's difficult to try to do the things described above and also play, unless you have a "sound engineer" who sits at the computer and knows how to do all those things when needed. Also computers are known to crash or freeze without warning. B. Use it at home to create backing track and songs to be played as audio files in the performance. Advantages: You have all the time you need to prepare the best backing tracks you need, and modify them if needed. You can read the help files and watch tutorials. Which you cannot do on stage. You can create different versions to a song, say long and short. After you create a backing song you can save it as an WAV or MP3 audio file. You copy all your songs to an IPOD or another MP3 player, and use it in your gig. You can create play lists and folders and when you go on a brake just put the thing in your pocket  MP3 players are extremly reliable and sound very good. Most have built in very effective EQ Disadvantages: You are working with fixed and static audio files - you have little control of pitch and tempo and zero control of the instruments in the audio file - every time you play that song, the backing track will always sound exactly the same, compared to using BIAB live that generates real changes whithin a song to sound much more realistic. (there is a third way of using BIAB - exporting the backing tracks to MIDI files and playing the files onstage with a MIDI player that includes a sound module - there are a lot of advantages here but it opens a new subject that may not be relevant to your situation). Personally, since I'm usualy alone on a gig with a guitar, and need both hands to play and fiddle with my mixer, amps and microphone, I use an old 20 GB IPOD connected to my mixer. I do save and copy my files to the IPOD as WAV files. The sound is very good, but the files are big, but with 20 GB there's no problem. I also use a $30 wireless remote control for the IPOD so I have real buttons instead of the finicky touch wheel. Your second question: "what specific kinds of equipment do I need to get us set up to play in a piano lounge environment based on our instruments and using BiaB with a PC?" I do not see you carrying the quad-core PC + 24" widescreen LCD to a gig - so you'll need to get a notebook computer if you want to use the A method. Or use the B method and bring a MP3 player with recorded tracks. For a sound system, I have used and highly recommend the very portable "Passport" PA by Fender
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
For a sound system, I have used and highly recommend the very portable "Passport" PA by Fender
Thanks so much for your post. It was very informative and your advice is much appreciated.
Regarding the Passport system. Which one do you use (there are several sizes / models to choose from and I'm not sure what I really need).
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have a passport sitting downstairs behind the Bose. I got too heavy for me, and I had to take it apart to carry it. I suited me sort of, but it's hard to adjust the 3 volumes I needed, mic, keyboard and computer or mp3 player, because it's built sit on the floor. It's too bad they didn't make a sort of rack it fits in so you could reach the knobs.
I suited me for 10 years, but this depends on your budget.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
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If ease and weight are an issue, definitely check out the Bose Compact L1. It literally sets up in minutes and very light. You have inputs for a Mic, mp3 player, and an instrument. If you need more, a mixer or the T1 module can be used. Beside cost ($1000), the negative is it is a little light on the bass.
R
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Rachel, that's why I went with the L1 Model 2. And I have a keyboard amp I can sent the bass to if needed, along with the bass module that comes with it.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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All of the comments here are relevant, with good observations. I've used the iPod, too, but here's my take on it-----if you improvise like I do, then I need to see chord changes---which means taking the laptop on the gig. Since I take requests, my memory is not good enough to solo on hundreds of tunes using an iPod. Yes, and you have to watch the computer during breaks. I've had a few close calls with folks hanging around the bandstand. I use the Bose model II, but wish it was stereo. So, I recently got the new Roland BA-330 keyboard amp, which is stereo (for the BIAB tracks). I was surprised how good is sounds, with a full bass sound. It weighs about 30 lbs. It's got all kinds of patch points and can even run on several AA batteries . I've only used it twice, but have been very impressed with the sound----running BIAB, vocals, and guitar through it.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I also gig (improv over standards) with laptop, restaurant job. The headphone outputs from a 4 year old Dell Inspiron feed a Mackie DFX-6 mixer which feeds a pair of Mackie SM350 powered monitors. Along with my Yari classical guitar (w/pickup), BIAB's Realtracks bass, keyboard and drums through this system are absolutely fantastic for standards. I've occasionally use the same laptop through a friends Bose L2 system, but the Mackie system really does have a much warmer and prettier sound.
I may have become perhaps a little dependent on following the marker as changes are churned out, but it sure is nice.
Only problem I have is maybe once every two or three gigs BIAB (295) just pauses for about 5 (v-e-r-y) long) seconds. Me and my partner watch close and always find some way to cover. Another issue is that the Conductor mode does not work without glitches with Realtracks. As soon Peter and our other good friends at PG fix the Conductor problem, which will allow changing to more or fewer choruses while playing, this will be the world's greatest live gig machine.
By the way, my partner agrees with this and he's a Grammy winning lifelong professional guitarist.
Thanks PG
John
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Russell,
You've already got a lot of great advice, I just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I started using BIAB for a one man band gig 10 years ago. For me personally, using a laptop instead mp3 player works best. As mentioned in other replies, you can't modify things on the fly like you can with a computer. What if you want to do an extra chorus or a singer wants to sit in and do "Bye Bye Blackbird in "A"? Until real drums and real tracks, you didn't need a real fast computer so I was using a dell latitude I bought of ebay for 200 bucks. The real tracks sound great but the do take some time to load. It may not seem like much time but on a live gig it feels like a long time. You sound like you have a pretty new computer. You might want to do a combination of things. Render some songs and use biab for others. You can play the rendered songs while loading your next tune from biab. The sound system depends on how big a place you are playing. Speakers are probably the most subjective thing in music. Some people swear by Mackie while some people think they suck. I would go out and listen to different groups and their setups to get some ideas. Ask groups about what they are using. I find most musicians to be very gracious when it comes to sharing info and experiences. As far as protecting you laptop from harm, that's no different than protecting you axe. In fact in the backing track situation it is your axe just like your guitar or keyboard. Good luck to you!
Dell Studio 16 Laptop i7 with 256 gig SSD
BIAB, Reaper, Encore, Sibelius
Roland SD-50
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Rachel, that's why I went with the L1 Model 2. And I have a keyboard amp I can sent the bass to if needed, along with the bass module that comes with it.
John, I've seen lots of posts here and on other forums that say they're using the L1 system. I have looked at the specs / descriptions at Musiciansfriend.com and I cannot see a whole lot of difference between the model 1 and the model 2 except the price (more than double). Also, I have found that with the original model 1, it is possible to add the bass unit. I even found a combo product by musiciansfriend.com which includes the L1 and two bass units for about $200 less than the model 2 with one bass unit.
Just curious what the hype is with the model 2 given that I'd need to mortgage the house to get one. Thank you.
PS Your posts are excellent. Very good information.
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Mac, I'm researching things and I come across a ground loop isolator at musiciansfriend.com. It's about $70. One reviewer says this ... Great for killing ground loops. NOT A NOISE GATE. Plugged it in between my amp and my loop station and it instatly stopped the buzz. If you do not know the difference between a noise gate and a hum or buzz eliminator, do some research before you buy. I have found that hum and buzz eliminators are one in the same. I have not found this, "noise gate" that he refers to. Also, I found another device that just plugs into a wall outlet ... Click Here With this device however, the product description warns of using other "filters" and so that concerns me. It reads ... You no longer have to run your audio signal through filtering that results in loss of volume, tone, or both. Some devices simply remove or float the ground, which is never safe! Your comments please. And thank you for your obvious expertise in this area.
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You don't want a Noise Gate nor the Power Filter for this problem. Neither will eliminate AC Ground Loop noise.
You want the Ground Loop Isolator.
The one sold at Radio Shack is under $20US and works just fine with my laptop and BiaB, I use it.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Leon, I think a combo of the two would be the ultimate in my situation. I like others posts here about using a laptop (as I think the 'industry' will likely gravitate toward developing add-ons and such for the performer(s) who have a laptop handy). And, as MIDI is truly the digital version of our acoustic world I think the PC will likely be THE platform by which product developers get their product(s) to musicians. But, I think the your idea of using an MP3 is right on too for two reasons:
For one, when we go to audition for a gig, having an MP3 with various backing tracks would work easier -- just plug it into the 'house' system and away ya' go! If the guy/gal wants a 'live' audition (without my setting up the whole band), again I plug in the MP3 to the house PA and hop up on stage and perform a line or two against another track (perhaps one without my solo for example).
And then secondly, when we do set up for the live performance, we plug in the laptop and run the backing tracks from there. If we as a band, want or need to change the show format, we're set to do that. And, if and when something goes wrong (i.e. PC breakdown), we have our selected performance WAV's saved to the player. On the other hand ... I could create a music DVD with these on it and this would work just as well even without the MP3. I suppose there's a dozen more ways to skin this cat!
I think I'd kinda' like the MP3 thing myself because I see myself (as well as others in the group), listening to our practice session cut during the days leading up to a performance. Kinda' self critiquing ourselves I guess.
Thanks again Leon!
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I use the Bose model II, but wish it was stereo
Are you guys saying that the Bose isn't stereo or is the problem that you don't have speakers on both sides of the stage? I've been leaning toward the L1 system. Remarks on some other forums as well as L1 reviewers on internet store sites are chattering about how fantastic the sound is (including from the listener's points of view). I'm confused about the 'stereo' comments I'm reading here.
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I've occasionally use the same laptop through a friends Bose L2 system, but the Mackie system really does have a much warmer and prettier sound.
John,
I almost switched thinking about the Bose System as I did get a chance to hear almost exactly your own setup. I haven't yet had any means of listening to the Bose in comparison. However, at this point in my research, I think I'd be satisfied with (leaning toward) the Bose L1 with Bass unit and the T1 unit (the model 2 has both -- one bass unit and the t1 effects unit).
However, I did research your Mackie (the Mackie PROFX8 8-Channel Compact Effects Mixer with USB). It seems your 6-Channel has been discontinued, probably in favor of the 8-Channel with USB (I've seen countless remarks by owners who said that a USB-ready unit would be ideal and low and behold ... it now exists).
So until I see some more comments about this idea of mine (ours), I think we'll be looking at the L1 - Model II, with bass and T1 unit. If in the future we WANT something darker / warmer, I like the idea that we can jack right out (and back) from any mixer or effects processor that we want to try and we can jack into the 'house' system (if they have one), and in turn we can set our own 'stage' mix and the house can maintain their own. Then, we can even add up to two additional bass units off a single power unit if need be (a single L1 Model II). Also, I've seen examples where an entire rock band for example, might have up to four or more of these Bose 'tower' systems (probably running off a mixer).
Now, I have noticed that quite a few people are mentioning that the L1 is maybe too 'bright' and is lacking in the lower end. So far, I'd have to say that Bose has even thought of this (in both model 1 and 2), as they seem to have the 'bass' problem figured out with even another product that adds up to two additional bass units and 250 watts to one 'amp' or speaker 'array' as Bose prefers to call them. The same connector can output to an amp, a sound/mixer board or even a subwoofer. So, lots of options where the 'bass' problem might exist. Since the Bose system is modular, it should be a snap to add onto it to change the sound as needed / as you have the money to do so.
Finally, for those of you who might be following this thread, with regard to the Mackie mixers, first it seems to be a fine company with a very good reputation in the recording industry. I have not noticed one bad comment from the reviewers of this brand. Also, as of this writing, it seems amazon.com is selling the Mackie PROFX8 8-Channel Compact Effects Mixer with USB unit for $50 dollars cheaper than the Mackie ProFX12 Professional Compact Mixer (without USB) which is sold over at musiciansfriend.com. Just a thought ... to USB or not-USB ... THAT is the question I guess!
Again, thanks all for your great information! Please don't stop ... We haven't made our decision yet but I'm sure getting an education from the BiaB'ers!
Last edited by ikeinblackriver; 03/22/10 11:45 PM.
Ike
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
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The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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