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Hello to all,
Hope someone can help me: I've been trying without success to fade some MIDI notes, using the graphic event (bottom) panel of the piano roll window. I can get the line tool or the pencil tool to draw straight or freehand lines respectively, but when I release the mouse button my line (or curve) disappears. My channel box is set to "all" and the view/edit box says "velocity".
I think I'm doing as advised in the piano roll help article; maybe I'm doing something dumb/not doing something obvious, or maybe there's something buggy going on, I don't know...
Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.
Clinton.
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I don't think we can draw freehand lines or curves there. Rather, we can place a single event at a time.
Let's say the line is defaulted to 100 and you want to bring it down to 90.
Click right at the 90 point and a small vertical bar should appear, with a line after it horizontally, to indicate that everything after that point will be at 90.
To bring that down to 80, click again to the right of the first bar and another bar appears. The horizontal line also falls to the 80 mark. etc.
Sometimes, after I click the first vertical bar, I can indeed draw a curve. don't know why it works like that.
It isn't as cumbersome as it sounds, but I also wish we could just draw freehand lines or curves there...
--Mac
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Hi Mac, thanks for your response. I tried it out straightaway but to no avail: whatever I got on screen (including vertical lines to the desired height) would disappear as I lifted the mouse button.
A bit of desperation-induced lateral thinking leads me to change the view/edit box setting to "control", up pops "7 main volume MSB" and then the behaviour you describe works perfectly and so I have my fix.
Now - back to my song to make musical sense with my new technique.
Can't help wondering though, just what is the purpose of the lines and blacked-out curves I can draw with view/edit set to "velocity"? I must still be missing something.
Clinton.
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In the Piano Roll Window, you change existing Velocities by pointing to the Note postion and when the pencil graphic changes to a vertical arrow, move the arrow up or down. A horizontal arrow allows you move the note in time. The Score Roll Notation Window is better for altering note values in my opinion.
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Quote:
Hi Mac, thanks for your response. I tried it out straightaway but to no avail: whatever I got on screen (including vertical lines to the desired height) would disappear as I lifted the mouse button.
A bit of desperation-induced lateral thinking leads me to change the view/edit box setting to "control", up pops "7 main volume MSB" and then the behaviour you describe works perfectly and so I have my fix.
Now - back to my song to make musical sense with my new technique.
Can't help wondering though, just what is the purpose of the lines and blacked-out curves I can draw with view/edit set to "velocity"? I must still be missing something.
Clinton.
Are you trying to place MIDI Velocity curves onto AUDIO track?
Note that there is a Volume CC7 that you can select and apparently did select, that will affect either MIDI or AUDIO tracks.
But the Velocity CC only applies to a MIDI track.
For AUDIO track, select Audio Volume.
--Mac
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Responses to LynB and Mac, and thankyou both for taking the time to reply:
Firstly to LynB, I think you mistook the nature of my query: my problem was not with varying the initial velocity of a note but with changing it over its duration, as in crescendo or diminuendo. I can and do change note velocities, pitches, start times and durations when desired and I agree with you that the Score Roll Notation Window is a good place for these operations (but I call it Staff Roll mode of the Notation Window, unless there's yet another part of this program I haven't visited yet).
To Mac, no - I'm not dealing with audio in this situation, just MIDI. Does "CC" stand for "controller something" or just "controller"? I hadn't thought about using MIDI controllers on an audio track; I generally use gain change
(constant or variable) from "audio effects" in the tracks or audio edit windows, or sometimes "record mixer moves" in that window for audio stuff. I should say that I'm only just starting to encounter controllers and don't really know much about them yet, but I can see there's a lot to be had from a good working knowledge of them.
I've got the tools I need for my present purposes, but remain totally mystified about lines that I can draw in the bottom pane of the piano roll window but that disappear as soon as I release the mouse button (when view/edit is set to "velocity").What is their purpose and why won't they stay?
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Velocity is really only how hard a note is hit (0-127). So you're only going to get one line for each note, because you can only hit each note once.
Also, the ability to crescendo/decrescendo volume on a single long note is also dependent on your sound source. Some support it, others don't. I don't know which CC # controls it, but Mac probably does. It won't be the velocity controller, however.
By the way, CC stands for Continuous Controller (but I've also seen it called Control Change).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Thanks jford, I think it's starting to penetrate my hard head that what I was trying to do in the graphic events panel with view/edit set to "velocity" simply can't be done, and that the lines/curves disappear upon releasing the mouse button precisely because they don't function in that setting.
I've been making nice fades with a "control 7 Main Volume MSB" setting for view/edit, so I'm happy to have a working solution and I'm happy to have discarded a muddleheaded idea (with help from you all).
Clinton.
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You need to select the correct midi channel number in the piano roll first. If you want to fade all of the tracks, you will have to draw them in for each midi channel.
Trax
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Hi Trax, thanks for contributing: isn't it the case, however, that if I set the channel box to "All" then all the MIDI information on the current track will be displayed and be able to be edited? ( I've seen from the event list window that notes on a single track come on different channels - the distribution seems to be pitch-related; also that those channels seem to have nothing to do with the assignable channel numbers that you see on MIDI tracks in the tracks window. So there's channels and then there's channels and I clearly don't know the half of it yet.)
As to wanting to fade multiple or all tracks, I get it that piano roll editing is a track-by-track affair (I think that's what you were conveying to me?).
Clinton.
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Check out the BB Yahoogroup and look for the folder 'demos' in the files section. You'll find a file demonstrating the how-to via Band-in-a-Box and explaining the pertient steps in its memo field. Download the file -> 'Expression demo for accompaniment tracks.MGX' and have it closely inspected via BB. Note, the pertinent Control data sit on the melody track in BB. Opening this file in RealBand does *not* reproduce the fading effects noticeable via Band-in-a-Box. The pertinent Control data are on the melody track and the channels likely don't match the piano or drums channels, say. Just repeating the steps that created this BB file in the first place, just now within RealBand, should get you to second base, though.
Martin
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Fades are best left for the final song file Audio Mix. If however you wish to do this in Midi then this needs to be done on a track by track basis. Decide on the start of the Fade highlight a blank Midi track. Open Edit > Fill. Fill Type "Controller"; Start "127" End "0"; Midi Channel 1 Select OK; Controller Number "11"; Select OK.
If you now look in the Event List; Hot Key "F2" you will find a string of CC11 entries running from 127 to 0. Copy the highlighted area and Paste to each Midi track in the song. If you don't like it, open the song anew and try again with a longer section highlighted. Why CC11 and not CC7? Both affect Volumn but in different ways. CC11 works as a gain control to vary note sound values within a track. CC7 is used to control the overall track gain within the Mix. If you use CC7 within a track to achieve the CC11 effect ,then each time you change the track gain in relation to other tracks within a Mix. you will need to revisit and change each CC7 within that track. They can both be used for Fades, but CC11 is preferable. In practice, I prefer a Start value of 100 as 127 may actually increase the Gain on the track before the Fade starts, especially if CC7 is used. You need to experiment.
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Quote:
Hi Trax, thanks for contributing: isn't it the case, however, that if I set the channel box to "All" then all the MIDI information on the current track will be displayed and be able to be edited? ( I've seen from the event list window that notes on a single track come on different channels - the distribution seems to be pitch-related; also that those channels seem to have nothing to do with the assignable channel numbers that you see on MIDI tracks in the tracks window. So there's channels and then there's channels and I clearly don't know the half of it yet.) ....
You may be working on a MIDI file you got from somewhere else that is not the Standard Type 1 MIDI file.
If it is a Type 0 file, then all the patches (instruments) may hav ebeen on ONE track, but still have to be on different MIDi channels in order to play different MIDI Instrument Patches. One Patch per channel.
If that is the case, you should open the original unaltered MIDI file and then use the "Extract to Channels" command first. That should put each instrument, and thus each channel, on a different track.
--Mac
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Thanks Martin, Lyn and Mac for your further replies - you've given me much food for thought, and it's going to take a while to properly digest it all. Not overnight, but it will happen!
For now, I can say to Mac that the MIDI file in question was a standard BB SGU file - does BB produce Type 1 files? I opened another BB file at random to look some more at channel information in the event list window and found the bass on channels 11, 12, 13 and 14; the piano on 8 and 9; and the guitar all on 7.
Also, you mentioned "one patch per channel": seems quite sensible, but upon opening another BB file for a look, I found guitar on 12 through 16, and bass on 11 through 14 (assigned channels in the tracks window were 7 and 2 respectively, which I think is normal). So now we have patches sharing channels 12, 13 and 14 - it seems like the more I look, the murkier and more confusing it all gets. Is there any simple answer to all this apparent confusion, or possibly some further reading you could recommend?
Clinton.
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Hi Clinton,
Where there are more than one channel in a track the Channel number allocated will be shown as Zero. You can break out the Channels to separate tracks by Edit > Extract Channels to tracks, BUT note that the tracks you wish to use for the break out must be EMPTY otherwise any existing data in the tracks you wish to use will be corrupted. Proceed with care. Tracks with a constant Channel number but containing differing patches are best treated by cutting out the sections for each patch and assembling them on separate tracks, each track to contain one patch.
Any Midi or BIAB file you wish to develop will need re-viewing to sort out channel, tracks, controller data etc. Some data you may wish to re-arrange, retain, others to change or delete. Whereas BIAB files will tend to have a consistent structure, general Midi files can be classified as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly depending how much remedial work you need to do.
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Quote:
Thanks Martin, Lyn and Mac for your further replies - you've given me much food for thought, and it's going to take a while to properly digest it all. Not overnight, but it will happen!
For now, I can say to Mac that the MIDI file in question was a standard BB SGU file - does BB produce Type 1 files? I opened another BB file at random to look some more at channel information in the event list window and found the bass on channels 11, 12, 13 and 14; the piano on 8 and 9; and the guitar all on 7.
Also, you mentioned "one patch per channel": seems quite sensible, but upon opening another BB file for a look, I found guitar on 12 through 16, and bass on 11 through 14 (assigned channels in the tracks window were 7 and 2 respectively, which I think is normal). So now we have patches sharing channels 12, 13 and 14 - it seems like the more I look, the murkier and more confusing it all gets. Is there any simple answer to all this apparent confusion, or possibly some further reading you could recommend?
Clinton.
BiaB can put Bass or Guitar parts on separate channels, one for each string. This is so the TAB can be derived, among other things.
For what you are doing, you may wish to not have that happen, though. To put all the strings of the Bass or the Guitar onto ONE channel, go to Notation Options and deselect the Bass or Guitar on separate channels using the dropdown window. Then Save the song like that (I'd use SaveAs and a slightly different name so as not to overwrite the original).
Alternatively, you could choose to Rechannel those four or six separate channels inside RealBand or PT and put them onto one channel each.
--Mac
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Hi again to all, especially Lyn and Mac:
Lyn, you mention that in tracks with more than one channel, the channel number allocated will be zero. (I assume the allocated channel number is the one that shows up in the track information field in the tracks window.) I am dealing thus far with BB-generated songs and my observation is that whether or not tracks have multiple channels, the allocated channel numbers always go 2, 10, 3, 7, 6, 4 and 8 for B, D, P, G, S, M and S respectively, so I don't quite know what you mean.
Mac, yes I've seen references to each string on a different channel and yes, you're right in assuming I don't want to that for now, or possibly ever (but never say never).
To both, thanks for suggesting strategies for dealing with channels - for now though, it's a case of it ain't broke so don't fix it. I can currently (thanks to advice recieved and study done) manipulate MIDI tracks to the degree I need - vol, pan, fade, effects etc - to complete my first recording project (about seven eighths done), and then after dealing with 6 months' worth of postponed non-musical projects, and getting out on the street to make some money with my shiny new CD (I'm a saxophone busker), I plan to look harder at all the areas of audio, MIDI, BB and RB that are currently a little bit or a lot mysterious to me. Learning new stuff is one of the things I like best in life so I'll be looking forward to this next study period, but first things first.
Clinton.
PS I thought "You must be Audiominds" was pretty funny and then I tried it in my best grizzled mountain-man
American accent - I laughed like a drain. I love a good pun and this is as good as they come!
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clinton, I think you are among the few that "get it" about the Audiominds thang!
--Mac
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Clinton, have you actually clicked on the link and gone to Mac's "Audiominds" site? If not, do so and click on the button in the upper left of the main screen "Getting Started". Lots of good info there, also the forums too.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I haven't read the whole thread, but I was never successful with the piano roll edit. Instead, I put all midi data on one track and under EDIT-FILL the job gets done very easily and quickly. Click on HELP for more details.
Percy
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