PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Another pianistic question...

Being as I got such an excellent answer from Mac last time I thought i would post again.

I play tenor sax and lots of jazz on this instrument, but my theory is linear or melody orientated. Thinking of more than one note is a new challenge, though I can hold my own on a piano blues.

I am learning piano in order to play in a band, therefore my style of playing needs to accomodate a bass player. I want to play jazz again this time on keys.

I have heard it said that to accomodate the bass you 'must' not go to deep in the left hand - maybe an octave below middle c. Using BIAB I find that it sounds OK to my ears to play in the bass as long as I listen to the bass and compliment it. If I move my bass line up an octave then it sounds out of place, not really suitable. So, in this case I end up just using the right hand - which tends to wander around the whole keyboard and in itself provides various chords.

I think I need to think another way about this, but dont really know what a decent pianist does.

any insights people?

Take a look at Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano". A very good book. Later, Ray

Mark Levine's books are very helpful. His jazz theory book is pretty much a must, imho, for anyone that wants to play jazz.

I have Marks theory book, its not the hteory, rather the practical application I am struggling with. I know all my chords and scales, its more about voicing with a combo, what strategies are there?

thanks for the input anyways

"If I move my bass line up an octave..."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said, but if you're working with a bass player, why would you be playing a bass line with your left hand? Virtually every pianist I've ever played with (when I'm playing bass) used the left hand for comping and the right hand for melody.

On the other hand, if you're playing a solo piano gig (or otherwise playing without a bass picker), a left-hand bass line would be appropriate.

Jon

I think what you are really after is LH comping techniques for jazz.

That starts with being able to grab the simple Tritone with the LH wherever there is a dom7 chord or any chord "after" the dom7 which includes the dom7, such as the 9th.

Ex: When the fake chord is a C7, just play the tritone of C, which is the E and the Bb. Two notes.

Also notice that those same two notes can be inverted and that there are really only 6 tritones that cover all 12 possible 7th chords, therefore that C7 tritone is also the Gb7 tritone. Learning all 6 possible tritones and their "subs" like that is essential. It also can lead to invoking the tritone sub when playing, in this example substituting the Gb chord notes for the C7 and leave the bass player to play the C, or maybe your bass player will also play the Gb. Doesn't matter. Because this tritone sub is not really a Gb at this point, it is expanding on the C7 chord by adding the Gb(b5), Bb(7th stays put), Db(b9) and the E. See the Bb and E tritone hiding in there anyway?

Always try to avoid playing the 5th like the plague, for it will generate the Resultant when the Bass plays the root. The Resultant is what makes the "Power Chord" for rock all that it is, Root played with 5th generates another root note one octave lower and half the amplitude. In jazz we call that "mud" though. *grin*

Okay, so if you were to get these patterns for all twelve keys down to something you can quickly grab, comping in this fashion for the 7th chordings will sound a lot like the late great Erroll Garner's left hand. Matter of fact it should sound exactly like it.

For chords other than the dom7th, we depend upon "shells" -- instead of playing all the notes as a chord is spelled, we pick the two most important notes out of the chord. For example, if a minor chord, the b3 is very important so I generally always pick that one, if a 7th I add the 7th to it. Or if a 6th. etc.

It starts with this rather sparse two note LH comping but once you have that going on you can and should try adding one more note to the grabs. EX: When playing a notated G7 and grabbing the F and B as the tritone, try adding the E on top of those two notes, yielding a sparse G13.

Most of this is done in the area around Middle C, one octave below to about a half octave above.

When the RH is not soloing, go ahead and expand the above to include the RH by playing either the same notes in an open position or the two "added" notes with the RH in closed or open position. Spreading the two hands farther apart such that there is an "empty" octave in between them yields another typical sound as well.

Practice your LH comping to the met, slow enough that you can make rhythmic decisions about where to place the comps, such as the old common "four to the floor" where there is one comp on each quarter note, then the "8 to the bar" comp which is a hit on every 8th, both of which will sound quite dated today but are quite necessary in moving towards the goal, which is to be able to hit on the 'and' of any of the beats as well as the beats themselves, finally being able to intersperse and change that around at will to fit both the way you are playing the tune and the tune itself. At this point the Piano is acting much like a Rhythm Instrument, which is okay, because the Piano is actually a member of the Melodic Percussion Section anyway.


Tritones and Shells, man.

Work with it a few minutes and you'll hear "that" sound, which is what I think you are looking for.


--Mac

Mac,
As a piano player with a very "poor" left hand, I found your short tutorial extremely helpful.
Thank you for your effort in helping others.

Mac,

With greatest respect, although I know that what you are advising is straight ahead jazz theory, I must say that I have always struggled with this tritone theory stuff which I have heard from many parties including Levine, Phil Greg, Aebersold, and many many others. The trouble I have with it is that immediately I do it (and I have gone and played some just now), my ears are stating to me "What the hell did you have to go and do that for!" and "Here, this line is much better, and this one and this one and this one.

Didn't Fux call it 'the Devil in musica'?

Now I am not stating that anything you said is incorrect, but I am stating that my ears don't hear it this way - here is my perspective

Firstly the Tritone is the most dissonant interval apart from maybe the major seventh. In tghe cycle its trhe most distant cousin. Dissonance IS important, and is part of the color of music, its what enable one to travel from one resolution to the next. But you dont hand around on it especially on a downbeat - unless you want to create unease.
Next you say 'never' play the fifth. But all triads built on any mode except the locrian, have a perfect fifth and I have no aural objection to the sound when I play sax, its often a note that I work an idea around.
OK so the fifth is now in the left hand and this makes a difference things do get muddy down there. But if I have a busy patch in a live performance, I foind limiting myself to chord tones, is the best way to go - adding a tritone cwould create dissonance and you would be heard, but I dont think that the note selection would contribute.
In melody terms I use fifths all the time, in fact I see a melody as a liner sequence of notes where one (normally) steps from on beat chord tone to on beat chord tone via either other chord tones or via dissonant tones both in side and outside the scale/key.

As fro my current bass lines they are shapped around the chord tones, I can employ practically any pattern I choose, and if I want to get a little busier in the left I will add step tones which can again be dissonant resolving to - usually - a root or a fifth at the beginning of a beat. Lets say I am playing a C major in the bass then I can work a figure using CEG and then add scale tones on the off beats if its fitting, I can also use other strategies like appraoching any note from a semitone above or below, or I can approach the whole chord from a dissonance of practically any type, and it will sound OK if I resolve appropriately.
If a bass player is present, then working from the fifth - not avoiding it but focussing on it, seems tro make sense - because its sonorous and has a pleasing sound

Maybe I have things fundamentally wrong, but then again I never liked Garner or CHarlie Parker or any of those dissonant players - I am much more Stan Getz

I am not stating that I am right, I have a lot to learn, what I do seems OK to me, and I think is OK for an Audience on some level (what they tell me) but maybe its not jazz, maybe I have a more profound misunderstanding going on. Playing Tritones is not a problem, the problem is wanting to play them.

OK so I think others can correct my misunderstndings..

Check out the Jazz Piano Master Class found HERE. I've played Classical since I was 7 and found this very helpful in making the jump to Jazz. Miles Black is an awesome pianist and you can probably get a lot from him. There is stuff in there for all levels.

R

ah yes, love those tritones!

Zero, I think the problem is you're not actually playing keys with a 4 or 5 piece jazz group. The band I usually play with is 5 piece with sax and guitar. Many times I will just use the shells as Mac described with the left hand only and rest the right during the sax or guitar solos. I've learned (finally!)less is more and won't play anything on some tunes for part of a chorus of even a complete chorus to give the other soloist some space to develop something. Two of the sax players I work with will call for just bass and drums to start off some of their solos then the piano and/or guitar will come in later. All of this of course depends on the tune and what I'm hearing at the time. If the guitarist is doing some cool Wes Montgomery type chord comps behind the lead I'll back way off on the keys and do the left hand shells. He does the same if I'm doing the comping. Watch some jazz videos closely, you'll see that happening a lot.

Bob

"In order to fully fully appreciate how to play jazz, you have to study and learn all the rules of music... then you have to breck them." -Jazzmandan 2011

?

Quote:

---

Maybe I have things fundamentally wrong, but then again I never liked Garner or CHarlie Parker or any of those dissonant players - I am much more Stan Getz....

OK so I think others can correct my misunderstndings..

---

To my knowledge, Erroll Garner's playing is anything but dissonant.

Here's Erroll playing the Standard he wrote - Misty

Ditto for Bird, whom Stan Getz idolized.

Bird's "Summertime"

One thing about the tritones, you have to be able to hear the bass note when dealing with them. It helps to have that bass note when starting out. After time, you should find that your ear will adapt and hear it even when it isn't actually there.

The tritone is the third and the dominant seventh out of the 7th chord. Add the bass note and the only note missing is the fifth. Which you can selectively add or not. So how can two of the notes out of the chord you find to be sonorous suddenly become dissonant when used to play the same chord?

Keep studying. Transcribe the works of jazz pianists. You'll find it in there all over the place.

It is just a voicing.

--Mac

Private lessons would do wonders for you. A lot faster than doing on your own.

Zero,

I had shut the computer off and was in bed, but kept thinking about this and so I got up and rebooted the machine.

The only way I can see that you would think that the tritone used as I delineated would be dissonant is if you are not applying the right notes to the chord. Forgive if that's not the case, but I've known others who were taking the C and F# to be the tritone of C. Well, its not.

As I described the use, it would be over a dominant 7th chord.

The scale for a C7 is thus C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb

Unlike the Major Scale, there is only one tritone within that key, and it is the third and the seventh. E and Bb.

The C Major Scale would have a tritone, but it would be the tritone of the Dominant chord for that key, not the root. B and F (tritone of the G7 chord)

C,D,E,F,G,A,B

Maybe that's it, I dunno.

Here's a Stan Getz youtube, his pianist is blowin' LH tritones & shells all over the place after the head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WctZJcPwnOQ

The acknowledged Master of the Left Hand Tritone Comp, Erroll Garner, here you can dig his tritone style, including the "four on the floor" LH that puts a tritone everywhere you possibly can, two-note and sometimes three-note comps like this definee his style, actually: (See if you can hear how the tritone-shell combo becomes *chromatic* when going thru the 1-6-2-5 or 3-6-2-5 turnarounds.)

Erroll - Lady is a Tramp

Keep asking questions, we'll get to the bottom of this.

I've never heard any true jazzer ever call Bird's playing "dissonant" before. Quite the opposite. I have heard lots of newcomers struggle to be able to hear things happening outside the octave, though. I'll never forget the first time I heard the Bird. Most say that. I couldn't get a handle on what was happening. I was floored. And extremely excited. More. Wanted more. Do it 'til I figure out what's going on here, please.



--Mac

Just ran across perhaps a better youtube of Erroll using the tritone/ahell LH, this one is slower and it is well defined, after the Intro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xuFRg7Y75U


Man, I can always dig me some Erroll.

ageless

priceless


--Mac

Thanks for all the replies. Yes lessons would be a help - once we have sold a flat and releasede some cash. As I say in many ways I am perhaps too theoretical - in a melodic sense.
Yes Mac I thinhk you have a real good point when you talk of the tritone appearing in the dominant of the melodic - I do tend to laps into thinking of the tritone from the C F# position (C).

Yes I am wrong about errol he is far more melodic that I remember - hes not a pianist I listen to much (there are so may good ones he's obviously class - I think Liberace put me off this style - glitzy - but of course he does it better) I loved the second errol clip. I leave him to have the llast word below.

I love Evans https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYXB6pQvJcg&feature=related

I notice in the Misty although there were uses of tritones (as far as I can tell) there was also a lot of orther action - some stride for example. Also the Bass player was playing no matter where Errol was. The bass player was mostly roots and passing tones.

AS for the Bird, well I think thats a bit of a cheat as plenty of his stuff is dissonant (not to mention too flashy and over busy).


Although I can transcribe for sax I can't for piano and dont have the time to learn fluent bass clef - I am far to busy playing!

I think this interview with Garner answers many of my questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEZLA__b-o&feature=related

thansk for all the input folks nice to be talking music instead of tech

Like fine wine, there are things that must be learned before the appreciation of the entire becomes apparent.


Keep working, keep up the ear training, I predict that one day you will find that you are able to hear the Bird.


--Mac

After the above in-depth discussion, I couldn't resist adding this...



Yogi Berra Explains Jazz

Interviewer: What do you think is in store for the future of jazz trumpet?

Yogi: I'm thinkin' there'll be a group of guys who've never met talkin' about it all the time...

Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?

Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.

Interviewer: I don't understand.

Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what’s so simple about it.

Interviewer: Do you understand it?

Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn’t know anything about it.

Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?

Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead. Some would kill for it.

Interviewer: What is syncopation?

Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.

Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.

Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.