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Richard, Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.  
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bobcflatpicker, Quote:
I hope you’ll accept the apology.
Yes.
In my 2nd post I also said NO OFFENSE (offence in US English) TAKEN, so an apology was not really nescessary.
Anonymity is the alleged beauty of the Internet, it is also the curse. 
Alyn
Last edited by gibson; 09/11/11 02:44 AM.
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Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
that phrase is worded a little differently here in North Carolina... but if puddin' is what you normally find in diapers, then it means the same thing. 
Quote:
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.
but all in good fun!
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If we all had the same opinions, it would get boring pretty fast.
100% agreement! Which is why I think its better to discuss controversial topics in a respectful non-volatile way rather than to have a policy of censorship in which any topic that people might have different opinions about is banned.
Everybody wants freedom of speech, but most forums go about it the wrong way. They try to stifle the expression of opinions.. but that's the OPPOSITE of free speech!
The trick is for the whole group to insist that opinions be stated without denigrating the opponent in any way. Trust the idea to stand on its own two feet. Once a group starts to enforce that sort of respect, it becomes possible to go ANYWHERE without causing flames.
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Quote:
Hi,
I'm a big fan of band in a box and recently showed the program to another musician when she visited me. I thought that she would be really impressed but I ended up sorry that I mentioned it to her at all. It came across that she thought she was far too professional to consider using the program and that band in a box is for lesser capable musicians than herself, amateur musicians like me in fact
I know everyone’s opinion is different and she is perfectly entitled to hers, just wondering has anyone else has this reaction to band in a box too?
Regards
Jan
I'll add a comment to this.
Let's say you are a guitar player/singer/songwriter and you've written this wonderful song you want to share. What is the difference between using BIAB to do the parts you can't do and hiring other players to do the parts you can't play?
Same goes for live. I keep hearing that line" interaction between the players is important". I'll tell you a little secret. (Some musical genres excluded.)I've played pro for a well known artist. You played it his way and his way only. All the time every time.I've also opened and done monitor sound for many, many pros and they say the same thing when asked. "How do you like playing for so & so".In most cases it's "well if you don't mind playing the same 10 songs over & over & over the same way with the same little stories etc. It's OK".
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
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Quote:
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
Bingo!
Regardless of how anyone may feel about BIAB, I think it is a true statement that Peter Gannon has done more to empower the average musician than anybody else in this century. Maybe for ever.
(Thanks, Peter and teamPG)
SUCK-UP-O-METER
0_________/_100
but, hey, they deserve it
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Quote:
I have lived to see the same musicians who panned BiaB at one time come to me and pay me money to make backing tracks for them to play a certain performance, and I often do that with BiaB as the basis. ac
Same experience here...(except for the money)
I've tried to get my musician son interested in BIAB for years... but he thinks he's too cool for that. However, he recently asked me to add some cool jazz keys and sax tracks to a song his jazz 3 piece recorded.
I keep telling him and everybody else... "maybe YOU can't play every instrument.. but BIAB can..."
BIAB-IS-COOL-O-METER
0______________/_100
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I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box. They just don't seem to get it. Many like to play along with records - copy licks. There is some value to that but with Band in a Box you can make your own stuff, pretty easily too.
- Bud
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Quote:
I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box.
So, you might say it gives you one-up on them. You can do what they do, PLUS!
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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I was in Sam Ash some time ago messing around on various keyboards. I started talking to some kids who wanted to learn more about music. They can already play fairly well and I started talking about Biab and they loved the idea. Another guy was standing off to the side and he said he liked what I was playing and why would a good player like me mess around with a toy program like Biab? I started by asking him what he knew about it and he basically hadn't seen it for years. I told him a bit about the new stuff and I also asked him about his set up and what he was doing in his home studio. He proceeded to tell me about a fabulous home studio he has and some commercial clients he's worked with. All Mac based using Logic Pro with thousands of dollars worth of outboard stuff and I could tell right away he's not only a pro level player, he's a pro level recording engineer too. I immediately switched gears and started talking about forum member Harvey Gerst. If you guys don't know him, google his name. He's a heavyweight producer who owns a multimillion dollar studio in Texas. He will use Biab to fill in some tracks for his lower end clients who can't afford to hire a full band for demos. He posted some examples here a few years ago and they sounded awesome.
The point here is it all depends on who you're talking to and what level they're at. If it's somebody like that guy in Sam Ash, I would agree, to him Biab is a toy program unless he needs something very specific like Harvey does occasionally. Same thing with a music teacher I know who has three locations, he has maybe 10 good teachers working for him and he too has a very elaborate home studio set up in his living room no less including a 9 foot concert grand. He uses Biab all the time but just for his students to practice with. As for him personally he never uses it and has no interest. He even told me point blank as far as he's concerned, it's just for the kids. If he needs to lay down a track of whatever instrument he brings a friend over, gives him a beer and they lay down the track. Oh yeah, his wife is a classical music professor at Cal State Long Beach so she can bring in all those players too.
Obviously I disagree with these assesments but from their point of view I can see where they're coming from. These guys are true pros and even if they might wind up liking Biab, they don't have time to load it up and learn it. They're purists with the ability to actually live up to that artistic purity. They have no interest in automatic backing tracks.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob,
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
If you can afford and have access to pro level musicians, then you’d be crazy to use BIAB, except for sketching out tunes and practicing.
Since most of us can’t afford or have access to pro level musicians, then BIAB is a “Godsend” for us. It allows us to be able to create songs with a myriad of instruments and styles. No other program that I’m aware of can do that.
We all know the cliché’s about why BIAB is better than live musicians, (doesn’t eat all your food and drink all of your beer, doesn’t hit on your girlfriend, doesn’t smoke all of your weed, is never late for practice, isn’t a bad influence on your chil’run, CAN play almost any instrument, …etc.)
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 09/13/11 03:24 PM.
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No you are right on on all of that. Sure if we had access to Pro talent we would all record that way. But most of us don't.
For me it allows me to build darned good backing tracks, and to make music that i enjoy, and can share with others without the cost, hassle, and involvement of a pile of other musicians (both singers and instrumentalist) LOL sorry Bob I had to, my rascal took over!
I do think that a lot of folks over look it because of the stigma of generated material.
I have posted links songs that were made with Biab at other sties and had folks that run small studios that are making a living with those studios, comment in amasement at the quality of what i posted.
I just say i worked with a REAL good BAND!
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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There's quite a few players I know who aren't interested in doing a duo or trio gig without a drummer. They will only work with a full band and that's great I certainly prefer that too. Still, I like to play and lately it's been 50/50 full band gigs and small trio gigs where I'm doing the "band" with my Korg arranger keyboard. I could do those gigs with Biab on my laptop too but it's just a bit easier with the Korg.
We could load up a few Biab songs on our smartphones and just play them when the subject comes up...
I'll bet if I did that at Sam Ash I would have raised a few eyebrows. Hmm, I just thought of that just now. I think I will do exactly that.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Honestly, even if I could afford "pro" level musicians, I prefer a computer for all the reasons I have stated all along. My computer never got drunk at a gig, hit on my girlfriend, forgot an arrangement, asked for more money, hit clams all night, whined because it didn't like three of the songs in the set.... I prefer to keep the human element out of things as much as possible.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Quote:
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Not a flame, just an alternative point of view:
I don't think its a matter of being afraid as much as it is a matter of discretion.
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Pat,
I think you are missing my point.
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has.
Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I hope that clarifies my comment.
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Quote:
Pat,
I think you are missing my point.{/quote]
fact is there are at least two different points here, and which one a person embraces depends on which result he wants to obtain
Quote:
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Are you suggesting it would be appropriate, if invited to someone's home for an evening of enjoyment and a free meal, to spend the evening talking junk about the host's cooking, or decorating or way of dressing or amount of ugly? in the name of helping him improve?? Even if everything you said was true?
I use that metaphor because PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product. If you paid for TV advertising time for your bluegrass band, and the camera man kept interjecting audible statements like "But a lot of people don't like this band" I doubt that you'd be OK with that.
Quote:
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has. Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
agreed. But here's where discretion applies. If you're at a party and you have a piece of food visibly stuck on your chin, you'd obviously want to correct the problem. But would you rather that somebody shouts out at the party "HEY BOB! THERE"S A CHONK O' MEATBALL ON YOUR CHIN! HAHAHA " or would you rather have someone take you aside quietly and advise you of the matter so you can correct it and maintain your dignity at the same time?
Quote:
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. The corollary to the SUCK-UP-O-METER is the INDISCRETE-O-METER, and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Quote:
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I've noticed that at work hourly employees often take the same tactic of open confrontation in meetings with management when they feel that issues are not being addressed fast enough. And it is true that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. But its also true that its often presented as an employee who is smarter than management telling them how dumb they are.. when in fact, management is generally far more aware of the issues than the employee. Such confrontation often forces management to divert resources that should really be used elsewhere just to appease the squeaky wheel and prevent insurrection. (ie damage control)
Furthermore, in this case nothing that was said could possibly lead to a product improvement. In a nutshell the comments were entirely subjective, along the lines of why some people choose not to use the product. How can a company fix people's choices? You seemed to be validating the idea that its not a suitable tool for professional musicians, when in fact many other people have commented that lots of pros DO use the product.
Such statements made in an open forum intended to favorably advertise the product are at best misleading and at worst, just plain inaccurate. A professional musician reading the forum, who might have seen MAc's comment and wanted top try it, might have seen the subsequent comments and changed his mind.
Quote:
I hope that clarifies my comment.
ditto
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Pat, Quote:
PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product.
I respectfully disagree Pat, but since you believe that, it explains your thinking.
Forums for any product aren’t there for the company. They exist for the users. The users pay for the forums by purchasing the product, and with most of us, we’ve purchased it over and over in the form of upgrades. We aren’t “guests” or “freeloaders” here, we’re paying customers.
In addition to paying for the forums by purchasing and promoting the product, the forum users frequently act as “tech support”, saving PG time and money.
Quote:
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. ……………………. and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Silly me. I thought Peter got involved in that thread because he’s a good businessman and he wanted to address the problem and find out the specifics so he could do so. (Actually I do believe that’s why he did). The problem had been brought up on the forum before, but never on a dedicated thread and in a detailed manner. Near the end of the discussion, he said he’d make a concerted effort to fix it. Being a man of his word, he did just that.
Peter’s participation wasn’t “damage control”, as you insinuate. It was a company owner showing legitimate concern for a problem and wanting to fix it. I appreciate that. It speaks well of him and his company.
The forum isn’t an “advertising medium”, as you suggest. It’s a tool for the users, (one that we are paying for). It also increases the customer loyalty because the users build relationships and realize they have more than just “customer support” to find solutions to their problems.
To compare it to being invited to a "free" dinner at someone's home is ludicrous. We paid for the steak, so it's okay to say how we'd like to have it cooked. (Bad analogy I know, but it's yours). 
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I have been reading this thread with interest. I have to agree with Bob. It appears that
the SUCK-UP-O-Meter has maxed out. I have used this program on hundreds of gigs in Church and private parties and Casinos. It has been received very well. I only use Drums
and Bass and a touch of Keys sparingly. I recently had the pleasure to jam with an old friend that is a Pro Jazz keyboard player. After a couple of my BIAB arrangements he said " Let's do it without the machine". It just isn't for everyone. But it is a fantastic practise tool.
Dave
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I too have had the reaction that biab is for learners. What a load of cr*p ! Like guitarman I just can't get to grips with real band as much as I've tried.
I'll just stick with my original set up of biab and then working with sonar.
On the other hand there's been MANY expert musicians who've been highly impressed with biab and have been dying to try it out for themselves.
I'm delighted at the work that goes into each release. All to often you have software that is several years old ( no namedropping I'm afraid ) you get the latest version which si a few hundred quid ( dollars ) dearer than the one you paid for only to find there's been little change in the bells & whistles. Personally I think that's disgusting.
I have tried a couple of other music programmes but nothing came near my beloved band in a box.
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Quote:
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
Well, that ain't it.
Trust me on that one. *grin*
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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Jan 19th, 2020
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